Intuitive Style

I am so delighted to share this week’s episode with the iconic Anna Newton of the Wardrobe Edit. Anna is THE blueprint for a writing & sharing about style online, and I truly enjoyed chatting with her. Recording this episode was the highlight of my month. I truly hope you enjoy as much as I did. Transcript Maureen: You’re listening to Intuitive Style , where we believe that everyone has style. I’m Maureen Welton. In conversation with fantastic guests, we explore how to tap into our style intuition so that we can dress authentically and live fully. Today’s guest is Anna Newton , OG content creator, published author, YouTuber, and the creative mind behind The Wardrobe Edit on Substack. Anna, welcome to the show! Anna: Oh my gosh, thank you so much for having me. We were just saying I haven’t recorded a podcast for the longest time, and I don’t think I’ve ever done one on fashion. Maureen: Today is the day to get it started. There are some amazing shows about fashion, so I hope to see you on some more of them if you want to. So I did want to just say before we get into it that I’ve been following you long enough that I wore the Giorgio Armani Luminous Silk on my wedding day, per your recommendation. Anna: And did you love it? Maureen: Yeah, I had been wearing it for a while, and I actually got my makeup professionally done. My makeup artist tried to color match me and she was like, “This Giorgio Armani that you have is a better color match and better than what I was making custom.” And I was like, okay! Anna: Okay. It’s the best. I wore it on my wedding day too. That foundation is such an OG. It’s been in my makeup collection for years. They’ve reformulated it. I don’t know if it’s a worldwide thing, but in the EU they’re bringing out some really strict regulations around certain ingredients, so we’re getting a lot of foundation reformulations, which is kind of exciting. Aside from this, I’d say foundation is my second most exciting pursuit in life. Maureen: Just wanted you to know that your recommendations are solid. Anna: I love that. Maureen: One of the recent series that you’ve been doing that I’ve loved is where you’re working with different personal stylists. Can you share a little backstory on the series and how it’s been? Anna: Oh my gosh, that has been so fun. So last January, I did a kind of “shop your wardrobe” series. A lot of people do a no-buy in January, and I was like, how can I create content that sits with that and is still fun and exciting and encouraging people to wear what we already have and just have a month of experimenting in a way? Last year I did do a session with Allison Bornstein . I’ve done a few sessions with her over the years and just loved every single one. I think it’s quite a scary thing to work with a stylist. It feels quite vulnerable. It’s quite personal, having a meeting with someone you’ve never met before and going into your wardrobe. So I’ve really enjoyed doing those over the years to show people that it’s not a scary thing. It’s not something you have to do when you’re in complete dire straits with your wardrobe. I think that’s a common misconception, that you only work with a stylist because you’re out of ideas and feeling in a really bad place with your style. It can definitely help with that, but even if you’re in a good place with your style, it’s still valuable. Personally for me, a lot of my friends in my real life are busy, they have kids. Maybe they care about what they wear, but it’s not something they’re writing an online newsletter about. It’s been really fun to work with stylists in almost having a super stylish friend give you great ideas, come up with new ways to wear old pieces, give you little styling tips and tricks. I thought for this year I would build on that. I already had a session booked in with Allison Bornstein and I was like, how about booking with Reva Luft ? What about Anna Baldwin ? What about Kelly Klein ? What about Angie Uh ? It just kind of snowballed from there, and before I knew it my whole January calendar was full with stylist appointments with these people who I’ve mostly connected with on Substack. I enjoy their content from a reader’s perspective, so it felt really special to be able to work with them on that series. I’m a fangirl of these people, and I got to work with them and showcase their talent. Ultimately I came away with well over 150 new outfit ideas. It’s crazy. My phone is just full of outfits that I can wear. I got to share that with my readers and show them that having a styling session is a really fun thing you can do. You’re supporting independent women who have created their own stylist businesses, and there were so many ideas. Every single one was different. I didn’t go into each one with a specific spin in my head of who would help me with what, but it was really fun that I have the same wardrobe and each person brought a bit of their own personality and ideas to the table. It was really fun in the hour sessions that we had. By the end of it, I was always writing them before I went to bed. Because of the time difference, I was normally doing them at like 5 p.m., eating my dinner, and then desperate to sit on my laptop and write the post. The post was in me and I needed to get it out. It was really fun to find the different angles with different people and how they all brought something completely unique to the table. Maureen: Yeah, it’s been such a fun series. I’ve been lucky enough to work with both Allison and Angie myself, and I’ve had different stylists on the podcast. I couldn’t agree more as far as the value you can get from working with a stylist, especially in a short-term way where it’s a one-off session and you’re just styling in your closet together. I think it’s so helpful to get out of your own head of what you might do and try out things you might not have tried before. Your series is obviously great because you put in so many photos, which is so helpful because we get to see how everything comes together. I know I was inspired by how you were styling a flannel shirt. I lived in Seattle, so it has a very specific meaning to it. Seeing you wear a flannel shirt in a totally different way, I was like, okay, you can give new life and new stories to garments. I thought that was particularly fun. Anna: The flannel shirt was an interesting one because I think every single stylist gravitated toward it and used it in an outfit somewhere. Maureen: Really? Anna: Yeah, I’m pretty sure in every single session we ended up using it, but everyone used it in a slightly different way. Kelly did this trick where we tied it around the waist. Allison did a trick of wearing it open and using it as a sandwich layer between a white shirt or white T-shirt and a leather jacket. In every single one it was funny to see the same pieces styled in different ways. It’s almost like my true personal style is an amalgamation of all of those looks that everybody made. You could almost take pictures from each of the sessions and know which person did which. I think that’s fascinating when you’ve all got the same base material. Maureen: I’m curious, have you felt different getting dressed since doing the series? Anna: I’ve just written a post on this. It’s going to be out next week because I was like, I should hope so. Five hours with some of the best in the business, and we overran quite often, so it was more than five hours in a huge way. I think it’s actually shifted more than I thought it would. I thought I’d just do these sessions and then have a roundup post at the end and be like, here are the 10 tricks that I’ve employed since. But it isn’t so much the styling tricks that I learned, although there are definitely things I’ve put into practice. It’s been a bigger shift in terms of what I have in my wardrobe and how precious I feel about it. That’s maybe not the right way to say it, but in my session with Reva Luft she said, “Your wardrobe is precious real estate. If things are in there, they deserve their place.” I ended up doing this massive wardrobe cull out of nowhere. One day after one of the sessions, I was like, right, I’m not wearing this. I’ve got this because I feel like I need to fulfill this category rather than actually using it and wearing it. It’s taking up space. So I got rid of almost 20% of my wardrobe. It sounds very extreme, but there were a lot of things that needed trimming out. It’s left me with fewer things, but things that are all fitting together more easily. It’s tricky to explain. I had this post in me that I was desperately trying to get out because I needed to put it into words. It’s been a different shift to what I thought would happen. Maureen: When you say that you culled 20%, I hear clarity in your voice. Were there specific pieces that you knew you wanted to cull? Or did you feel friction with those specific items during the sessions? How did that go? Anna: Yeah, I think they fell into a few categories. There was a category of things that just didn’t fit. I was like, but they’re vintage Levi’s and we love vintage Levi’s. And then I thought, if I’m saving them for days where I’m really feeling myself, that is not happening. I’ve got so many jeans, but I do love what I actually wear. Again, it’s taking up space and creating that decision fatigue around too many options. I’d rather just have the options that I like and that fit. Then there were things that I kept coming back to as problem pieces. I had a pair of burgundy cords, and in every single styling session I’d always be like, how do I style this? Then I was like, oh my gosh, it’s taking up a lot of space and a lot of time. I’m using time in these sessions to try to find answers to these burgundy cords, which when I checked my index stats, I think I had worn maybe three times in the last two years. I just thought, this is so silly. It’s obviously not a piece that’s working for me. There’s friction there. Take it out of the equation. In the past, I’ve been quite hasty and just boom, put it on Vinted or Vestiaire and gotten rid of it. Whereas now all this stuff is sitting upstairs, and I’m moving things in and out a bit slower than I’m used to. A few things have trickled back in. But I almost knew in my head which pieces had to go. Maureen: I wrote a piece a year ago that sounds exactly like what you’re saying, the distraction of the wrong thing. If you have a garment that you have to force or really think about, it takes away the fun of putting together an outfit when you have to work really hard at it. I think Angie talks about this a lot too. She probably has a different word for it, but she wants everything in your closet to be seamless. If it’s really hard to style, aside from whether it fits you, it’s just not fun. It’s heaviness and it takes away the joy that I think everyone in this space is looking to achieve. Anna: And I think there’s almost the misconception of, well, then you’ve stripped it back and you’ve got no personality pieces and no fun pieces. But I do have fun pieces in my wardrobe that I actually find quite easy to style and easy to wear. So I think it was showing me that I’d rather be wearing those and almost going back to basics in a way, feeling really good, feeling like my outfits are clicking and coming together, rather than grabbing something and going, I don’t like how that fits, or I only ever wear that with a black top and I’ve got no other ideas. So I think clarity was a big lesson that came out of having five-plus hours with professional stylists. Maureen: That’s awesome. This is kind of an off-the-cuff question, but one thing I continue to struggle with is that I’m still buying the wrong things sometimes. I’m trying really hard to buy the right things and pay attention to how I feel in my clothes and make sure they feel effortless and go with things. Then I look back and I’m like, what was I thinking? Do you feel that’s inevitable? Anna: Yes, I do. I think we’re all so hard on ourselves with this. Even the people who are the best in the business, even Allison Bornstein would stand there and say, I’ve bought some really messed-up things that did not work in my wardrobe, that did not look good, that did not fit. For me, and this is really lazy, but something arrives and I think, it’s okay. It’s fine. If I breathe in, if I wear it with these shoes. From doing these sessions with everybody, it’s made me be a better shopper, which definitely wasn’t the point. It was called Shop Your Wardrobe Month. I wasn’t meant to go out and buy lots of new things. I did end up buying a few new things. And I think it made me order the jeans in three different sizes. Even this jumper I ordered, I was like, the sleeves are a little bit short on it, is that right? So I ordered the next size up, and then that lost the fit around the body. Then I realized I wanted to keep the original size. It’s made me much more conscientious. It’s given me discernment around the fact that sometimes you just need to make the return. You need to get up and make the return instead of letting it sit there. And you need to try things in different sizes. That was a big thing for me, that “oh, that’ll do” mentality. Not realizing that actually one size up in that denim would give me a bit more comfort and bagginess, which is what I was looking for. That’s been a big learn for me. I know Allison and Reva are both big on the “make three outfits” rule. Reva, in our session, was like, “Do you make three outfits with new items?” In my head I was like, no. She said, “You need to be doing them in your wardrobe.” She’s right. I’ve done that with every parcel that’s come in. If I haven’t had time, I leave it to the side until I can do that kind of styling session myself. That has definitely helped. I’m saying this while the pieces are fresh in my wardrobe and I’m really excited to wear them, but I do think it’s inevitable. There are things you can do as insurance, but inevitably we’re going to make some not-great purchases sometimes. Maureen: I don’t know if you ever do this, but sometimes I’ll have a new item and I’ll try it on with different outfits and I won’t like the outfits, and I keep the item anyway. I’ll put together an outfit and think, I’m supposed to like this. It technically works, but it doesn’t feel good. And I’m like, well, it’s staying. Anna: I have so done that. Or shoes not fitting. It’s always shoes. Or a pair of shoes that are so uncomfortable, but you’re like, if I just walk 10,000 steps in them they’re going to break in. No, they’re going to make your feet bleed. There’s going to be actual blood in the back that you’re trying to get out before you put them on Vinted. It’s just no. Maureen: Well, all that being said, when I think of your career, you’ve worked with some huge brands, which from my perspective looks like a lot of options as far as what kinds of clothes you can bring into your closet. I’m curious, how do you stay consistent to yourself and your vision for how you want to dress when you have so many options? It feels like it would be even more difficult. How do you know when something is in your wheelhouse versus maybe not? Anna: That is such a good question. I do donate a lot. I have this with beauty as well. I have one face. I am one human. I’m a single person. Through doing Indyx, I’ve worked out that when my wardrobe starts to go over 200 pieces, which for some people might seem tiny and for others might seem huge, I start getting really overwhelmed and I hate what I’m wearing and I hate my style. So I’m very careful about what gets added to the daily rotation. I’m really lucky that quite often with the brands I work with, it’s a bit of a “you do you” situation. I don’t work with people who are like, you have to wear this top with this dress. That doesn’t work for me. I’m lucky to be at a place where I get a free pick of things. Whenever I’ve worked with Net-A-Porter, it’s literally pick off the website. I actually loan a lot of stuff from brands as well. Quite often it’s not necessarily things coming permanently into my wardrobe. It’s things I get to play with. To me, the ultimate is getting to work with a brand like Net-A-Porter where I loan items. Sometimes it’s really sad because they get sent back. Or I try things and then I’m like, oh God, now I need to buy this. It’s not as clean cut as that. But loaning is a really good way for me to play around with items. The brand is happy because it’s new-in-stock items I’m showing, but the ideal for me is when I get to incorporate them with what I already have. That’s ultimate. Maureen: And you do that very, very well. Anna: Thank you. That to me is ultimate because it’s authentic. I say to brands, we’re not wearing head-to-toe one brand. We’re mixing it with vintage, with secondhand, with a pair of jeans we’ve had for the last five years. That’s always the aim, to show people how these new pieces work with what I’ve already got and what you’ve already got, rather than head-to-toe looks. I think brands are realizing that’s the most authentic way to blend in these items instead of everything being brand new and pristine. It looks very clean, but ultimately people want to see the real-life application of things. Maureen: As a viewer and reader for so long, I’m very active in the personal style space, and I’ll see creators go to fashion week and every day they’re wearing a head-to-toe look. All the looks are fabulous, but none of the pieces are interchanged from day to day. Every single day it’s totally new items. As I’ve gotten older, I’ve become more jaded to that. Anyone can make seven incredible outfits with brand-new pieces seven days in a row. It’s so much more interesting to see how people make use of what they already have, style it in different ways. It’s harder. Anna: It’s harder. I think people love a capsule as well. That was so hot back in the day. I definitely fell down that rabbit hole. But it is more exciting to see that real-life remixing. I think that’s also why Substack does really well. A lot of people on Substack have jobs in marketing, they’re stay-at-home moms, they’re coming from all different walks of life, and they’re just showing what they genuinely wear every day. Not at a fashion show. They’re showing what they wear to drop their kids off, what they wear on their commute to work. That’s where Substack is a really fun place to play around with personal style. There are so many people. I follow well over 100 Substacks, and whenever I look at my inbox and think there are so many, I can’t edit them down because I genuinely love reading them once a week. That’s why it’s such a fun place to engage with personal style content, because people are just living their everyday lives and documenting what they actually wear. That’s what we want to see. That’s always at the crux of what I want to do. I never want to put on an outfit and not wear it out because that’s not really an outfit. That’s a work-from-home look, which is also fun to share. But I really want to be sharing those everyday, realistic outfits. I’ve got my sweats on right now. I snapped a little picture before this. It’ll be in my post on Sunday. Maureen: I took a picture too. I was like, I need to document what I wore to talk to Anna. Anna: I love that. That’s what we do, right? Maureen: So, I just feel like you’re so articulate in this space. I wanted to hear your take on the idea of intuitive dressing . When you hear the word intuitive, what does that mean to you and how does that show up in your life, if at all? Anna: I actually love this phrase. I know this is kind of your spiel, and I love it. I think it’s such an interesting phrase because everyone’s answer will be different. For me, and this has been the biggest shift in the last four years, probably since I had my son, it’s practicality. Intuitive dressing is dressing from a place that is very functional, but you also love your outfit at the same time

This week, I’m delighted to share this interview with stylist extraordinaire, Irene Kim (김애린) ! You’ve probably pinned an image of her to your Pinterest board and definitely read one of her incredible posts here on Substack. Enjoy this wide-ranging and personal conversation. We chat about everything from shopping pragmatically, to Korean body culture, to how Irene coaches her clients. Enjoy! Transcript Maureen: You’re listening to Intuitive Style , where we believe that everyone has style. I’m Maureen Welton. In conversation with fantastic guests, we explore how to tap into our style intuition so that we can dress authentically and live fully. Today’s guest is personal stylist, Canadian in Paris, and extremely generous cool girl, Irene Kim (김애린) . Irene is an OG in the fashion Substack world with iconic reads starting back in 2023, such as the five questions she asks herself when shopping. Since then, she’s continued to share glimpses into her real life, including how she styles herself for events ranging from glamorous photo shoots at the Musée Rodin to school drop-off. Though through it all, she manages to stay real and aspirational. Irene, welcome to the show. Irene: Thanks so much for having me, Maureen. So lovely to be here and meet you. Maureen: Likewise. So looking through your archive, it’s very clear to me that you are an extremely creative dresser, fearlessly turning lace napkins into a miniskirt or hocking a brooch and a shoelace into a bolo tie, and even layering windbreakers under blazers, which is recent. I love that one. Trying imaginative combinations can be really daunting. Personally, I can feel fear looking silly or too crafty. How do you know when some creative combination that you have matches your taste level? Irene: Oh, that is such a tough question. Because the answer is really, it just feels right. You know, I’ll just know when that’s too much or that’s too slim or that’s too baggy or that’s too much color or the eye’s moving too many places. So if I had to really break it down—and I think I have done that in a Substack—what’s going through is like just the checklist. It’s like an automatic checklist going down. Yeah, that proportion doesn’t work there, or that’s a little too slim there, or like that’s too much nylon and not enough natural fabric. You know what I mean? It just keeps going and going. So it’s sort of, after all this time, has come a bit automatic to me what level is okay. And I actually want to say, because I’m not saying that what I find okay to me is okay—it should be okay for everyone—because there’s people out there whose style I admire that I’m just like, if I put that on, I would be like, this is way, way too much. But it’s so clearly their baseline and they’re so clearly rocking it that I’m like, all power to them. Obviously, their checkpoints are different than mine, right? Maureen: I think one of the things I heard in what you said or your answer is that it’s become automatic, but that doesn’t mean that it was always automatic—this idea of knowing what was your level of comfort or how far to go. Does that feel correct? Irene: Oh, gosh. Would that feel correct? Because I’m trying to bring myself back to when I was like in my teens and I did so much experimenting then. And no, I still think I had it then. I just have different materials now, you know? I think a lot of experimentation was at that time, and even now, is born out of creative drive, yes, but also necessity, right? Because I don’t know what’s going on with kids these days, but when I was younger, like, if I got a shirt from Gap, like that was like Christmas, you know? Like there was nothing fancy about what we were buying. So it was a lot of, you know, I went thrifting and I just put stuff together in all these different ways. And I’ve already lost track of your original question. Has it always been there or has it evolved? I guess it’s refined itself over time. It’s just different than when I was younger, I guess. Because I loved my outfits then too. Maureen: That makes sense because you were still getting dressed back then, presumably. So if we have a calibration of good enough to leave the house, you know what I mean? Irene: Yeah. Maureen: The thesis of this podcast is that we make better style decisions when we listen to our intuition. So what role does intuition play in your life or your personal style? Irene: Right. So I just feel like when I get dressed and I try to look like the people that I admire for their clear appearance, their clear aesthetic, their very clear look, I just never feel right. It just never feels right to me. And ultimately, I go back to kind of the basics that I always love to wear no matter what. And sometimes, you know, I look at some of my everyday outfits because I feel like your everyday outfits are kind of like—that’s the core. Like, you know, that’s who you are in a way. Sometimes I think, oh, you know what? What if I made my everyday outfits a little bit more directional and made it more like this designer or that designer? But that’s just not me. Like every time there is a little… I kind of lean back a little bit into prep, androgyny. That’s always going to have some sort of base in how I dress. So I just can’t move away from that. And there’s no point in trying. I’m always going to go back that way. Maureen: That’s amazing. And I totally get that. I think what I heard from that is we can’t force ourselves to have a personal style that’s different from what we want to wear on our bodies. We can have aesthetic preferences that we like in theory, but we can’t force those to actually work for our everyday life or what we choose to wear. Is that kind of right? Irene: Yeah, no, that’s exactly right and far more articulate than I said it. No, no, nothing like that. No, I mean, I get it. I’m trying to force myself to be this, like, you know—and I don’t mean it to sound so strong—but I was really intrigued by Simone Rocha and super inspired by sheer volume. There are definitely ways that I can still incorporate it, but I had this vision this summer of just totally transforming my style in this totally new direction and wearing more black. And then I go into stores and I try on a black bag with my outfit that I like the rest of, and I’m like, oh, it’s still not me, is it? So I get that, you know? Maureen: The thing is, though, the beauty about clothes is that you can wear that, right? Like per day, a week, whatever. Irene: It reminds me of actually when I started getting a bit more traction on social media and I was thinking like, oh, maybe I should start publishing things that are a bit more polished and produced because mine isn’t at all. And I just thought, you know, how long am I able to keep that up? And I realized I could keep that up for like a week tops. I could do like one polished, produced post and then I’d call it a day because it’s just not me, you know? And so for me to have to put in that mental effort, truly, to dress in a way that’s not comfortable to me day in and day out—apart from your occasional event or your fun dress-up thing—it’s just not going to happen. Maureen: Great analogy. I get it. As a fellow writer, the polished stuff is hard to achieve. One of your early posts about questions to ask yourself when considering making a new purchase, you ask, does the garment take you places in your imagination? So my question to you is, can you think of any garments that you’ve bought that take you somewhere in your imagination? Irene: Oh, I have so many. So many. However, do I wear those every day? No. But I have a lot, yeah, for sure. Just like you were talking about the Simone Rocha piece. Yeah. I love getting dressed. But if I’m going to buy it, I mean, that’s the part of the five questions I ask myself when shopping. There is a love component, of course, to everything. But then, of course, there’s the need component. And then there’s can I actually afford it? There’s like practicalities of actually shopping. So yeah, my whole closet isn’t filled with that. But certainly there’s some there. Maureen: Yeah. What about your purple skirt that’s kind of like—is it sheer? It’s like a lilac— Irene: Oh, the Cecilie Bahnsen skirt? Sure, yeah. Maureen: Yeah. Is it like a piece—I think it’s beautiful—that piece feels like one that would take me somewhere in my imagination. Does it do the same for you? Irene: Oh, absolutely. I mean, you were mentioning Simone—like Simone and Cecilie are very similar in terms of aesthetic, and I love that ethereal vibe. And even though this is how I rock out in the world every day, I can absolutely throw that on with this sweater and it’ll still work, right? And so that’s ways that I can bring that kind of beauty into my life. And there are, again, other people who are able to do that every day. I just can’t. Not practical for my lifestyle. Maureen: So when I think about that skirt, like I’m transported to like a woodland meadow with like dappled sunlight traveling through the treetops. Where does it take you? Irene: So basically my friend who is a photographer, she has photographed me for various things—family things, other things—and she knows like my favorite scene is like carelessly just running through golden fields. That is like freedom to me. I don’t know what it is. It’s just warm. It could even be fall. It could even be misty. But just bouncing through grass, just wide open—that’s like when I think of happiness, that’s what I think of. Maureen: Wow. You know, I can see that skirt doing well in a field. Irene: Right? I’m sure they’ve had plenty of Cecilie photo shoots in fields like that, like really moody fields. Maureen: Incredible. Maybe with some muck boots. Irene: Exactly, exactly. Maureen: We started to talk a little bit about how you decide what to buy and where, with cost and love and need, et cetera. Can you think of any recent purchases that you made, or even broader than that, a little bit more how you decide what not to buy or where? Irene: So I kind of categorize this into two groups just because I am a stylist and I work with like a really large range of people. So there’s people like me who have really mature closets, and I would have different guidelines for me than I would for somebody literally starting from scratch. To have such a high bar for somebody who has no clothes is like just too much extra pressure, I think, on a lot of people. So when people are like, oh, you should be buying secondhand or this costs too much or like no, you should only buy the best you can afford—like people just can’t take it. Like just get them dressed. Like really that’s what they need. Where somebody like me, the bar is really high because I really have everything I need, or most things I need anyway. So yeah, I mean right now it really is—there can’t be a single reason why I don’t want to wear it. Literally, if the thing falls a little funny, it’s just an automatic no. It has to really pass all these tests. Like I have to love the color, I have to love how it feels on my skin, I have to love the cut, I love how it looks on my body. It has to be the right price, et cetera, et cetera. So that’s a high bar for me. For a client that has no clothes in their closet, I’m not going to be like, okay, you cannot buy a single pair of pants until it’s perfect. Like that’s just not sensible. Maureen: That’s very healing for me to hear because last year I had to basically repurchase a lot of my clothes. Not even just last year, but like twice. Anyway, my body changed, and so I had to rebuy my clothes. And man, there is so much pressure in the fashion space—I personally felt like there was so much pressure to buy the right way, the perfect way. And I just needed clothes that I could wear to like… you just need clothes to feel good in. And I just remember feeling so frustrated by this narrative that there’s only one right way to shop. And I just appreciate the way you just delineated like, yes, for a certain subset of people it’s really important and good to have high standards. But if you are in the midst of what is arguably—if you have no clothes to wear—there’s probably something else going on in your life that is already hard. And so trying to put the pressure of doing it perfectly on top of that… yeah, I just appreciate you saying that because I could have heard it a year and a half ago. Irene: Well, I’m telling you now. I think it’s really hard because I really bite my tongue a lot of times when I read things on Substack or social media because people only have like one line to get their point across and to capture people’s attention. So obviously it lacks a lot of nuance. But yeah, I’ve done this for like 15 years and I work with just normal people, right? So I know the huge chasm of life experience. There’s a big spread of what’s going on in people’s lives. I read something the other day and somebody wrote like, who’s buying Aritzia coats when you can buy them on Poshmark for this and this? And I was like, totally respectfully, I get your point, but there’s people who don’t have time to shop, people who don’t know that secondhand is an option, people who know it’s an option but don’t know where to look. There’s people who don’t fit into Aritzia. There’s like a million people who don’t fit into what is on its face a very reasonable thing to say. But underneath it all, it’s quite nuanced. Maureen: Yeah. It can be well-intentioned, but I think sometimes we need to take those things with a grain of salt. Irene: Yeah, for sure. Maureen: You had mentioned when you’re thinking about a new item, if it falls a little bit strangely, that would be a reason that you’re like, okay, there’s no reason I need to buy this. But what about like body awareness or how things fit or the way that different textures lay, things like that? How does the feeling of clothing, rather than necessarily what you see in the mirror, how does the feeling impact what you decide to buy or wear? Irene: A hundred percent now. I mean, I would have let that go 10 years ago. Frankly, I would have let that go like three years ago—no, five. But I can’t take it anymore. If it’s itchy or like there’s a certain type of polyester that just makes my skin crawl, I can’t wear it. I don’t want to. And I can afford to be that picky at this stage, right? Again, if you’re somebody who doesn’t have any clothes in their closet, you might be less picky. But even at that stage and price point, I probably could find you something that feels better on your body than something that you really hate. So yeah. Maureen: And what changed for you going from being willing to put up with it to not? Irene: What changed for me? Let me think. This was like maybe five years ago. Most of the stuff I’m referring to is like, you know, Zara, fast fashion stuff. I didn’t buy a ton of it to begin with, but I just started getting pickier, I guess. And I think when that happens for people, it changes. My client base tends to start at 35. Occasionally I’ll get kids with their parents—teenagers or 20-year-olds—but mostly it’s 35. And in your 20s, that’s when you’re experimenting with stuff. So the top priority isn’t, oh, it feels great. You want the look, you want the style. But I think it’s pretty standard across the board that as you get a bit older, these things start to matter more. No big life change other than that. Maureen: Yeah. I think I started a little young on that. I’ve always been hypersensitive to how clothing feels on my body. And I’ve always questioned like, how do people put up with this? Like I don’t get it. I’m 30 now. I’ve never had the threshold to be able to wear something uncomfortable, but that’s just me. Irene: Do you mean uncomfortable like fabric or uncomfortable like sitting on your body? Maureen: Mostly fabric, because that’s different. Like, okay, yeah, okay. I’m a highly sensitive person. It is my burden to bear, but I get it. What is exciting you in fashion right now or in style? Irene: Oh. You know, it’s funny. I think I may have written that nothing has really excited me in a while. I’m not even old—I’m only 45—but I’ve been around enough to see a lot. I’ve seen like three-ish good decades of fashion and cycles. And so right now, nothing feels super new to me. But that doesn’t mean it’s not exciting. It’s just still fun to get dressed. Irene: Right now, I cannot keep up with the external stimulation and new input because I’m in a new city. It’s like too much. Like I can’t handle it—in a good way. So I’m still trying to process the fact that, okay, I’ve moved to Paris. There’s just so much for me to process and understand. And so that’s what’s exciting me. Maureen: Let’s talk about that. When you go to bed at night, what are you looking forward to in the morning of being able to do in Paris that you weren’t able to do in Canada? Irene: Okay, so not to disappoint, because my friend called me and was like, “Oh my God, your kids get home at five and that still leaves some time for you guys to do some sightseeing.” I’m like, listen, when my kids get home… I mean, no, I’m still living a normal life. I still have a husband and kids who go to school. So I’m still working through the day, trying to get a workout in, and the kids come home and then I’m doing homework and then I’m preparing dinner. So it’s still very much—for anybody who has FOMO—I’m just in a different location. But obviously there is a lot more access to fashion. The people dress differently here. I’m constantly staring at what people are wearing, how people are wearing it, people’s relationship to fashion. Brands that I can’t see at home, I’m trying to discover them here. The huge vintage ecosystem that they have—I can’t stop. Every single day I try to find something new. I’ve only been here since the start of the school year, so that’s like three-ish months. I haven’t even nicked the surface. Maureen: Well, that already just sounds exciting. Just having a whole new playing field to engage with, even if it’s only in slivers of the day. What advice would you give to someone trying to build a wardrobe that feels intuitive and authentic to them? Irene: So I usually start people off with a foundational wardrobe, and those are like the core pieces that you reach for every day that you feel good in and you know you can make an outfit with. Because I find a lot of people get all of these incredible pieces or these pieces that they love, but it makes no sense when you try to put it together. And what those pieces are—they’re always going to be, unless you really love dresses—like four or five pants, right? There’s always going to be like 12 to 20 tops. But the shape of those, the color of those, the style of those—that’s where your intuitive style comes in. Again, I’m generalizing because not everyone wears jeans, but let’s say most people wear jeans. Some people will reach for a skinny straight jean all the time. That will be the backbone of the outfit. That will never be me. You will not see a skinny straight jean in my wardrobe. I will always have some sort of barrel pant shape in my wardrobe that I would reach for before that. So that becomes my foundational bottom because I feel good in it. That feels comfortable to me. So when you’re building your foundational wardrobe, when I’m building it with somebody, I really make sure I take a temperature check of how they feel about this piece. Because I’m not going to say, okay, ideally you have bottoms that are sort of different shapes, some are jeans, some are pants, some are this—but I’m not going to dictate what they are without substantial input from you. If you tell me something that I feel like is not going to be very practical or versatile or functional, I will tell you. But generally speaking, people know what’s going on. So I trust them to tell me. So yeah, start with the foundation. Maureen: I love your post on that, by the way. I unlocked your membership for it. Irene: Oh, t

This week, I’m delighted to share this interview with Evonne Sturm ! She’s a fashion-industry veteran who really caught my eye through her beautiful weaving of industry knowledge with her personal narrative. We chat all about how working in fashion has taught her about clothing, how she finds her signature eyewear, and more! Make sure to subscribe so you’re notified when upcoming episodes with Irene Kim (김애린) , and Anna Newton drop! Can’t wait. Maureen: You’re listening to Intuitive Style , where we believe that everyone has style. I’m Maureen Welton. In conversation with fantastic guests, we explore how to tap into our style intuition so that we can dress authentically and live fully. Today’s guest is Evonne Sturm , fashion industry veteran. And her Substack, Musings of a Merchandiser , is a fun glimpse into the fashion machine, where she integrates personal narrative into deep dives on industry trends, both consumer-led and brand-led. Evonne, welcome to the show. Evonne: Thanks for having me, Maureen. I’m really excited to be here. Maureen: I’m excited to talk. You know, whenever I have a guest that’s in industry—that’s not my experience whatsoever—I really like to start out talking about how working in fashion has impacted your personal style and the way you dress. Understanding, of course, that you don’t necessarily have a frame of reference for what it might be like otherwise. But I’m curious if you can think of any memorable moments where working in fashion really impacted your taste or the way that you were dressing. Evonne: Sure, it’s actually a great question to start. So I would say working in fashion inevitably changes just how you see clothing in general. You really start to notice construction before color, fabrication before fit. And over time, I’ve really kind of stopped chasing trends and started just really chasing a feeling. I know silhouettes that make me feel really pulled together and which ones make me feel like I’m playing dress up. I would say probably the most memorable moment happened pretty early in my career back at Macy’s—not to age myself, but over 15 years ago—when I got a first real look kind of behind the curtain. How every decision from fabric quality to button to style to hem finish really came with a cost implication and a trade-off. It’s incredibly mind-blowing when you realize how much goes into the make of a single garment. And then once you’ve seen that, you cannot unsee it, especially as a merchandiser. I think about it literally 24 hours a day, whether I’m at work or whether I’m shopping personally. Maureen: Yeah. So, I mean, as a recovering perfectionist, I see so much detail in every purchase that I make. You know, I was just looking at some shirts and I was like, some of these buttons are white on navy. And then the plum version has plum-colored buttons and I much prefer that. Like, how do you handle that level of detail that you must see when you’re shopping? Does it ever get in the way or do you feel like it’s an asset? Evonne: It’s both an asset and it always gets in the way. Yeah, like I said, it’s just inevitable. I’m a curious person by nature too, and I just can never turn it off. And sometimes I have to realize, okay, you came out not for work, you came out for yourself. So once I’m able to switch that mindset off—and it almost rarely happens—sometimes it comes back full force when I look at the price tag on the garment. Like, really? And then I look at where the garment’s made. I’m like, really? It just kind of constantly snowballs. Maureen: I want to know a little bit more about what you mean. So when you see the price tag, does that raise your standards, lower your standards? Evonne: That’s a really interesting question. It honestly just kind of depends on the overall brand itself and your perceived value of it, and then kind of how it feels when you’re touching it, when you’re putting it on your body. So it really depends. It’s a funny thing I think about, especially when I shop luxury items, because knowing how much the markup is on those things will blow your mind. But then you’ve got to take into consideration the craftsmanship and where it’s made. If you’re looking at a luxury handbag, the type of leather—all of those details come into play constantly. Maureen: Yeah, yeah. What about working at—have you ever worked in office? Does the experience of dressing for a fashion office culture change how you might dress? Evonne: Yes and no. I mean, I’ve been going into an office since the dawn of time, since the start of my career. And it definitely has fluctuated—how much I’m in office versus where we’ve all netted out after COVID. But early on in my career, the office etiquette or style has definitely evolved. Back when I worked at Macy’s, we were not allowed to wear denim—only on Fridays. So, you know, you constantly had to be polished and presentable and never relaxed or in kind of almost like your weekend apparel. But since then, I mean, even just thinking about that over time, it seems wild that you were not allowed to wear jeans to the office other than Fridays. Now I think I wear jeans probably constantly. But there’s a way to dress them up and evolve them. So whether you’re putting them with a nice pair of heels or a nice pair of loafers, or you’re completely disregarding the jean in general and wearing a nice pair of pleated trousers—fashion has definitely evolved in the workplace. And I think there are so many brands now that take a new spin on it versus wearing the mundane, tried-and-true suit. Maureen: Yeah, I totally forgot that when I first started working it was the same—like no jeans, or if you could wear jeans they had to be black. It was like a whole thing. And now it’s not even remotely on my mind. That’s so funny. Cool. Evonne: Yeah. And even as I think—MACs at Bloomingdale’s back in the day, and I don’t know if this is still the case—but you always had to wear black on a market appointment if you were going anywhere. They almost had a set signature uniform. I’d be curious if any Bloomingdale’s people are out there in the universe—I’d love to know if the dress code has evolved or not. Maureen: Yeah. Like a Sephora employee. Evonne: Totally. Totally. Totally. Maureen: One of the fun things about your newsletter in particular is the way you weave your personal narrative in with your industry expertise. For example, you had a really nice piece about eyewear—which of course you’re wearing a fabulous pair today—which you have a personal connection to beyond the trends. So I’d love to hear more about your personal connection to eyewear and how this became your signature. Evonne: Totally. I have worn glasses since the third grade, so they’ve been part of me for a very, very, very long time. And my eyesight, believe it or not, has only gotten worse over time, which has, I think, really deepened my love for eyewear dramatically. It’s the one accessory that I truly need. And maybe that’s why I care about it so much. It wasn’t until after college, when I started working and spending most of my day at a computer, that I thought about eyewear differently. It’s not just a necessity, but it’s really, as you said, a form of self-expression. Over time, my glasses definitely evolved into what I call my visual signature. I think of them the same way somebody would think of their favorite lipstick or their favorite jacket. They really anchor my look and they frame not only how I see the world—both literally and figuratively. Evonne: I would say probably the biggest influence when it comes to eyewear is my deep, deep, deep love for Iris Apfel and her oversized signature frames. As they say, the bigger the frame, the closer to God, maybe. But with my small features, I really love the playfulness of an exaggerated shape. Evonne: There was a place in New York that I would go to on the regular for my glasses. It’s where these are from—it’s from a brand called SEE Eyewear. I would come in every year or two because I needed a new prescription since my eyes got worse. The manager noticed that. We began to have a rapport, and I’d come in and he’d tell his sales associates, “Do not give her anything that isn’t oversized. She will just not touch it.” So they always knew to put aside the big, big frames for me because that’s always what I ended up buying. And I really think that because I’m short in size, the oversized frames not only amplify my voice, but they also help amplify my personality on a whole other level. Maureen: That’s really cool. I love that perspective on it because there are so many different ways that we can think about our body and proportion. Sometimes there can be this idea that you want to match your proportions. But I love the idea of playing with—well, one, there’s no right or wrong answer, right? It’s all about personal preference. But I love the intentionality of “big because I’m small.” I think that’s really fun. And yeah, Iris is such an icon. What a legend. R.I.P. And then when you are picking—so you know you want a bigger pair—how do you know when a pair is the right one for you? Evonne: I don’t know. There’s just something that clicks. I can’t describe it. It’s like when you put on a pair of jeans and you’re like, oh man, everything about them fits me like a glove. It’s the same thing with eyewear. I think in the past I used to gravitate toward bold color and maybe a little bit of a pattern. And I’ve tried to veer away from that more recently. I’ve really tried to play up my hair color and accentuate my eye color. I used to have a pair of really dark blue frames and I loved them, but they were such a contrast to my pale skin that it was actually too much. The over-exaggerated frame against my pale skin was not a good combo. So now I find myself gravitating toward rich browns and tortoiseshell because I think it helps frame my face even better with the coloring of my skin tone and my eyes. Maureen: Yeah. No, I love that. I think that’s really fun. And also, you know, I always like to balance this idea of the analytical side with the intuitive side. Not that I really think they’re opposites, but I do think the word intentionality really speaks to the fact that we can have an idea of what we want going in and we can make an intentional choice to be like, “Yeah, the blue—I had enough experience with the blue and that particular shape on me to know that that doesn’t feel right anymore.” It’s like you’re using experience to build your intuition versus just making an impulsive decision. It’s something that you have data on and you’re like, “Oh, well, that worked for a while,” or “I tried it out and now I want to do something different.” And that’s what helps us build that intuition—creating that data, making that model for ourselves about what does and doesn’t feel good, I think. Evonne: Absolutely. And even to circle back to the first point about seeing behind the curtain and knowing how much things cost—I think one push and pull I definitely have with eyewear is the cost of it. I constantly have to remind myself that the cost per wear—even if the frame is expensive, and then I’ve got my lenses because I’m blind, which are even more expensive, and I like the bigger frame—so it’s a mashup of making sure the frame can hold the denseness of the lens, which inevitably causes the overall package to be more expensive. It’s this push and pull. I’m like, “Oh, I really like the frame. It looks so good on my face,” but then the price tag—oh. However, I constantly have to remind myself that the cost per wear will literally pay for itself because I put them on the minute I get up in the morning to look at my phone, and I take them off literally the minute before I wash my face and go to bed. So if you think about the amount of hours in the day that I spend wearing them—who cares, really? I have to take off the sticker shock and settle in with the fact that I’m going to wear them 24/7, so it doesn’t matter. Maureen: Well, this is totally anecdotal, but I have this feeling that when I was younger, glasses weren’t cool. But now glasses come in and out of being stylish just in general. Do you feel that that’s true? Have you experienced that? Evonne: Absolutely. In the third grade, when I found out I had to get glasses, I bawled my eyes out. I was so deeply upset because I was afraid I was going to get made fun of and people were going to call me four eyes. The amount of nicknames that came up in my head—people judging me for having to wear glasses. Because to your point, so many people now wear them, right? Back then it was almost taboo. You need them because you can’t do your work or you can’t see correctly—you’re impaired, literally. So it was constantly something I thought about growing up. But now, I don’t know—it’s part of my style. I’ve just fully leaned into it. And I love now that there’s so much variety in the market. When I was younger, we went to the same eyeglass place. Because I was a kid and needed glasses, the amount of options was so limiting. I had maybe one or two choices to pick from, which I wasn’t excited about because the options were so narrow. That fed into the whole narrative of having to wear glasses. But now the options are endless—which is also a good thing and a bad thing, right? Because you have so much choice. But that’s what really makes it fun. You can get them from anywhere. Maureen: You set up the perfect segue for the next question, which is how you decide what to buy or where—and how do you decide what not to buy or where? And this question was inherently more interesting for you anyway as a merchandiser. As we’ve talked about, you have all this information. But yeah, with all the options out there for what to buy and where, how do you decide? I personally find it overwhelming. Evonne: It is overwhelming. You’re not alone. It’s even overwhelming for myself. But when I think about what I’m deciding to buy, it’s kind of like my earlier thought about glasses and cost per wear. It’s really about longevity and how many ways I can truly wear something. That’s what’s going to earn its keep in my closet. It’s not really about minimalism, but more about mindfulness in general. The amount of times I spend hemming and hawing and having 80 tabs open before I decide whether I want to pull the trigger on something—it literally drives my husband insane. But I like to think of it as part of my Virgo-minded thought process. I’m not chasing quantity or even novelty. I’m really chasing that mix of comfort, quality, and clarity. And then on the opposite side—what I decide not to buy—I’m very petite in frame. So the biggest driver for me is ensuring that the item really isn’t wearing me nine times out of ten. Maureen: Yeah. Okay, well, using that analytical and feeling brain, how do you distinguish that? I can speak to this—I struggle with this. Not because I’m petite, but going back to the eyeglasses thing. The other day I was like, “Oh, I think it would be really cool to try out wearing some glasses. I’d like to add more structure to my look. I don’t love earrings. I just want to try something different.” So I tried on a bunch of glasses and I was like, “I think these are all wearing me.” So how do you know when something is wearing you versus when you are standing out? Especially when we think about oversized glasses—how do you know it feels right versus distracting? Evonne: From a literal sense, if the fabric feels overwhelming on me, I’m literally drowning in it. That’s probably the biggest thing for me. A lot of pants are way too long. I also have a smaller chest. So I’m constantly looking at brands that show up well and can play to my strengths of being petite. One of the brands that does this really well—although she’s on the pricier side—is Ulla Johnson. Her smaller size frame, I literally feel like, was made for me. It plays with proportion, it plays with shape, and I really gravitate toward things that accentuate that for me so the fabric first and foremost isn’t wearing me. Even though I love oversized glasses and I love a puff sleeve and I play with exaggeration constantly in my wardrobe, I also have to make sure there’s balance. There could be a puff sleeve, but I’m wearing fitted trousers so that I’m not being swallowed whole by the garment. So it’s really about playing with proportion. Maureen: Yeah, I think I’m curious what you think about this. Sometimes I think about it as, do you see me or do you see the clothes? Do you feel like there’s any aspect of that for you or a difference? Evonne: I don’t really think so. I’ve always been someone who expresses myself in style. I’ve always had a knack for fashion—way, way, way before I decided to make a career of it. And I can’t tell you how many times I’ve been shopping with a girlfriend and they’re like, “Oh, I could never wear that. You could pull it off.” And I’m like, “But you can wear it. You just have to hold your head a little higher.” You’ve got to have the confidence to feel like you can. Literally anyone, in my opinion, can wear anything as long as they hold their head high and have the confidence to wear it. I think anybody can wear anything. So I’ve never really been one to shy away from fashion, because if I feel confident and I feel good in it, it doesn’t really matter. I don’t really care what anyone else thinks. But I could be a very rare breed. That’s not normal for most people. Maureen: No, I don’t disagree. I think a lot of people feel that way. I was mostly thinking about preferences. For me personally, as much as I love really flamboyant fashion, I don’t want to be overshadowed by it. That’s my only hesitation. Evonne: Right. Maureen: It’s not necessarily a confidence thing, but I think sometimes it’s just a preference of how you want to show up in the world. For some people, leading with the fashion is the most fun possible thing. And I think we just have different ways of experiencing clothes. I’m the kind of person that if you’re wearing something amazing, I’m the one who starts the conversation with, “Oh my God, your outfit’s amazing.” I’m receptive to that. I think we’re just different little puzzle pieces in the conversation, in different roles. Evonne: Yeah, for sure. Maureen: What about body awareness? What I mean by this is how does clothing’s texture, fit—how does any of that impact whether or not you connect with a garment or want to wear it? Evonne: I think over the years there are definitely signature details that I gravitate toward. In silhouette—whether that’s a puff sleeve, whether that’s a ruffle, whether that’s a polka dot. Texture is a fun one. But again, it’s about finding potentially the right brand and the shapes that fit your mold, and then working those into the textures that work best for your body, if that makes sense. Maureen: Anything you steer away from because of how it feels? Evonne: Nothing that I would say I universally steer away from. I would say the thing I’m maybe most self-conscious about is that I have a smaller chest. So anything that gets too low— Maureen: As you’re sitting here in the most buttoned-up thing possible. Evonne: Exactly. This might be a personal detail, but I have a mole that sits pretty low on my neckline and chest. It’s usually my gauge. If something dips lower than that, I’m like, okay, this is too much. Because I’m small-chested, it does get hard when tops don’t fit the way I’d like. Sometimes I think, oh, I’d kill for a bigger chest so I could gravitate toward different silhouettes and play with my neckline more. But because I’m small-chested, I steer away from certain things because I don’t feel good in them. It’s not my best sense of self. If something drapes too much there, I don’t want to accentuate the fact that nothing is there. Maureen: Oh yeah, totally. I think we all have aesthetic preferences for our body. It doesn’t have to be about “flattering” or understanding every reason why something does o

After an unexpected few month break due to debilitating health issues, I’m delighted to be back with a fantastic episode featuring Anika Krueger ! I’m biased, but especially excited to share this episode as Anika is not only a great writer, but actually a listener of this very podcast—as such, very qualified to weigh in on the concept of “intuitive dressing”. We also discuss her great series Style Notes , what’s on her do-not-buy list, and more. Enjoy! Maureen: You’re listening to Intuitive Style , where we believe that everyone has style.I’m Maureen McLennon Welton . In conversation with fantastic guests, we explore how to tap into our style intuition so that we can dress authentically and live fully. Today’s guest is Anika Krueger , writer of NO WARDROBE . Anika is an uber-stylish corporate girly by day, personal stylist by night. We love her style analyses and the way that she makes high street look high end. Anika, welcome to the show. Anika: Hi, Maureen. Thank you so much for having me. So glad to get to talk to you. Maureen: You’ve such an early supporter of the concept of intuitive style and of the podcast, and just in general the idea of intuitive dressing. I would just love to hear from you—what is your definition of what it means to dress intuitively? What does this concept mean to you and how does it show up in your life? Anika: I think it’s so funny because I feel like from the outside my personal style doesn’t appear intuitive at all. It’s really minimal. I dress with a really limited color palette and very few details. My style is defined by clean lines, neutral tones, and really simple silhouettes. I feel like most people associate intuitive style with really playful, experimental, expressive looks, but that’s so not me. And I feel like the same applies to my home and my lifestyle. Everything is really minimalist—my apartment is really simple, really uncluttered, and filled only with things that make sense to me. Also with my interior decorating, I use really neutral colors. So both my wardrobe and my environment are always really edited and very curated—almost the opposite of intuitive. But I’ve realized that my intuition actually guides me toward this simplicity. It took me years to accept that my true style is that simple—and maybe kind of boring in a way—but my intuition expresses itself through calm and clarity. I like order. I like harmony. My brain and emotions feel best in simplicity. I recently had this epiphany that, for me, intuitive style actually means choosing what supports my nervous system. Does that sound weird? I need to wear clothes that feel like me and match my emotions that day. Dressing intuitively simply means aligning how I feel with how I present myself. So yeah, to sum everything up, it’s choosing what supports the version of myself I want to be and what supports my nervous system. Maureen: Well, we can end the podcast right there. No, I mean, that’s so incredible. And I agree with you on every point about the misconceptions—what we think intuitive style might look like versus what it actually feels like. Intuitive style isn’t an aesthetic; it’s a preference. It’s a way of choosing. You were talking about your nervous system and how clothing supports it. Can you walk through an example—maybe a time when you tried something more colorful or wild and felt it didn’t align, versus something you really enjoy wearing? What’s the difference in feeling for you? Anika: Off the top of my head, I don’t necessarily remember a specific example because every time before I leave the house I actually check whether something supports my nervous system or not. But I do remember this massive teddy fur coat I got probably two years ago. I felt so visible—so seen—on the street, and I couldn’t handle that at the time. That’s probably a good example. Maureen: Yeah, that’s a great example. I can think of that too—sometimes something just feels loud, and it’s not the kind of attention you want. Anika: Exactly. Maureen: You mentioned that before you leave the house every day, you do a nervous system check. I need more information. What is this? Anika: I mean, I do lay out my clothes before I leave the house because I leave really early in the morning for work. But mostly, I just look in the mirror and check: what’s on the agenda today? How do I feel today? And most importantly, how do I want to feel today? Then I do a little check—does my outfit represent that? Let’s say I’m wearing a leather jacket, but I don’t feel very strong that day, or I chose something that makes me feel more visible than I want to be. Then I’ll just change it or make little tweaks. Maureen: So the idea is choosing something that represents how you’re feeling on that day versus just in general—or maybe both? Anika: Yeah, yeah, both probably. I also—and I think I’ve talked about this on Substack before—I always feel like I want to have a cohesive look throughout my personal style. So that’s actually referring to what you said about emotions in general or representation in general. Maureen: Yeah. Yeah. What do you think it is about that idea of being cohesive that resonates with you? I know I do, and so many other people do. What is it about that that feels good to you? Anika: I think my Style Notes on Substack actually give away that I’m quite analytical. And also, I think that reflects my more perfectionist side. I feel like that’s probably the reason. Maureen: Yeah, yeah, that’s super fair. Let’s talk about that. So, okay, I think another misconception that I’ve experienced with intuitive style is that it’s somehow the opposite of being analytical. I think for me—and from what I’ve heard from you—they’re actually very intertwined. With your Style Notes , if I can summarize, you analyze a really cool person and their style, and you see what it is about that which works or resonates with you. So I’d love to hear your take on how being analytical relates to being intuitive. Do you think they’re opposites? Do you think they fit together? How does that work? Anika: Yeah, I actually think they do fit together, and they intertwine. I feel like on a subconscious level, I would always be analytical. But then this intuitive or emotional side that we’ve talked about also plays a role in that. I think I always have style formulas and patterns in the back of my head—even things I’ve probably already discussed on my podcast or in my style notes. And then my intuitive style actually plays with that. So they kind of intertwine—my more perfectionist or analytical side and my intuitive side. In the end, I think it’s a sum of both of those that makes me get dressed. Maureen: Yeah. Can I share how I see they relate and see what you think? Anika: Okay. Maureen: To me, it’s like if you think about a trained interior designer or a trained artist—yes, you can absolutely be completely self-taught and create something totally new. And also, a lot of artists learn techniques by studying people they look up to or artworks they’re inspired by. When you think about someone who’s learned how to sculpt marble, for example, that’s not something you just pick up one day and nail on the first try. Someone probably had to teach you techniques. So I see it as a study—it’s a study in something we’re clearly passionate about, which is getting dressed. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with studying what other people are doing in order to interpret it for ourselves. I think it’s just a deeper way of engaging with the topic. Maureen: And I think it’s—I don’t think that mimicking or taking pieces from what someone else is wearing is ever going to look or feel exactly the same on us anyway, because we are unique individuals. Our personality and all of that really impacts how it feels. So I see it as a way of engaging deeper in a topic that we care about. How do you feel about that? Anika: I love that idea. I mean, actually, when you mentioned the trained interior designer example, I immediately thought of a trained dancer. A trained dancer also trains—they have routines, they have training sessions—but in a way they have to bring emotion into it once they start dancing and moving. So of course there’s choreography once they’re on stage, but there’s so much intuition in the way they dance and move. And yeah, I love that you’re also a supporter of the idea that you can copy other people but still remain true to yourself or true to your intuitive style in the end. Maureen: Yeah. Well, I think we should touch on perfectionism then, because to me, being analytical isn’t the same thing as being a perfectionist. They’re related, but not the same. I’m curious about your thoughts on this. To me, perfectionism is where you take analytics too far and you’re like, “Oh, if it’s not exact, it’s not worth trying.” How do you think about analytics? Sorry, I should have asked you first—I got excited. Anika: No, no, that’s okay. I feel like I’ve never thought about it that way. They were always intertwined for me. This analytical side always had almost a bad association or connotation for me. But actually, analyzing something can support your idea of something, or just serve as research. And I like that you separate those two or differentiate between the two ideas. Perfectionism per se is not something bad, and being analytical is also not something bad. But I like that you actually separate them. Maureen: Yeah. I mean, I think I can give an example. I love your Style Notes series, right? And it encouraged me to write my own version—I couldn’t help it. I saw yours and I was like, “I have to do one like this.” I was so excited by it. That emotional response made me want to do this highly analytical thing. They’re very intertwined. And then the difference I see is this: if I analyze someone’s style and recreate it, my version will look different—spoiler alert, it always will. If I then automatically say, “Different is bad. I failed. This wasn’t worth trying,” that’s where it tips into perfectionism. That’s where it becomes, “I shouldn’t even bother dressing like the people whose style I like. I shouldn’t even bother wearing the clothes that excite and energize me, because on me it won’t be right. It’ll look bad. My body will make it look bad.” That’s where it becomes unhealthy—this pessimism that stops us from even going for the things that excite us. Anika: I love your take on that. Maureen: Does that resonate with you? Have you ever had that experience? Anika: Yes. I think whoever I look at within my Style Notes , I always—and that’s why I do that little section at the end—ask, “What do I take away for my own personal style?” And it’s always something really abstract. I think it’s important to see patterns rather than saying, “Okay, this outfit consists of a white shirt plus black jeans and boots.” But rather, what’s the vibe behind the outfit? What do I like about it? And how does it make me feel, rather than focusing on the elements or the specific pieces in the outfit? Not “how can I copy that person best,” but “how can I make my own version of this?” or “what about this look or this personal style would benefit my own style?” I think it’s important to see patterns rather than saying, “Okay, this outfit consists of a white shirt plus black jeans and boots.” But rather, what’s the vibe behind the outfit? What do I like about it? And how does it make me feel, rather than focusing on the elements or the specific pieces in the outfit? Not “how can I copy that person best,” but “how can I make my own version of this?” or “what about this look or this personal style would benefit my own style?” - Anika Krueger Maureen: Yeah, no, I love that. I think we have to let the emotional and analytical sides coexist. I think they’re better together—that’s my take. I would love to talk next about how you decide what to buy and where—and how you decide what not to buy and where. Anika: That’s really funny, because I feel like my personal style is actually defined by what I decide not to buy and not to wear. Because it’s so curated, edited, and minimal, I’m not an impulse shopper. I buy very intentionally. I have a really clear vision of what I want to buy and how I want to dress. I gravitate toward pieces that already feel like they’re hanging in my wardrobe. And that often leads me to buying upgraded versions of things I already have—pieces that are really aligned with my personal style and also with practicality. I keep a list that I update regularly of things I don’t want to buy—almost like a reminder. And that’s something I do not only with my wardrobe, but in life in general. I love reflecting on past decisions, not in a bad or unhealthy way, but more like, “Don’t buy that weird thing again,” or “Remember last time you sold 20 logo shirts?” It’s more in that way. Maureen: Okay. I think what can be really hard is knowing what we do and don’t like. One thing you said is that you buy things that feel like they’d already be hanging in your closet. I don’t expect this to be an easy answer, but how do you build that trust? How do you know when an item feels like it’s missing? Anika: Oh, that’s a good question. I think it’s kind of like the Marie Kondo thing—it sparks joy. You can’t really put your finger on it. I try things on, and if it feels like a true addition to my wardrobe, like an extension, then it feels right. And that brings us back to intuition. I think I’m someone with a really strong gut feeling. Sometimes I feel it first, and the explanation comes later. It’s about trying something on and doing that little check-in: “Okay, that’s it,” or “That’s not it.” Sometimes I can point to why—the length, the silhouette, the material. And sometimes I can’t. You just hang it back. And I also think you have to remind yourself and build a kind of style confidence—with your personal style and with the more practical side of having a wardrobe. You go shopping, you have a feeling about something, and you trust yourself enough to say, “That’s not the right decision today—or ever.” Maureen: Do you have a sense, just ballpark, of your success rate? Like, for how many things you try on, how many do you actually end up buying? Anika: Oh, that’s so interesting. That’s such a good question. Sometimes I try things on just to see—to push a little outside the box. But the rate of things I actually buy is quite low. I’m not someone who loves shopping and tries on a million things. I’m more like, “Okay, I want to see how that feels.” Sometimes I try something on purely out of curiosity. I recently went to Amsterdam and we went into, I think, Filippa K. I tried on this really beautiful coat that was very cinched at the waist. I just wanted to see how it looked on my body. And I think I should do that more often. That would probably be really good for my intuitive style—letting it grow a bit and allowing my personal style to evolve. But yeah, to come back to your question, the rate is pretty low for things I try and don’t end up buying. Maureen: Hmm….I try so many things on— so many —and then I buy, like, one thing. I don’t know. I think there’s sometimes a size component that makes it more complicated, like fit, when your body isn’t really designed for certain things. But even when I was in more clearly straight sizes, I still tried on a lot and didn’t end up buying much, or it didn’t stay long. For me, that goes back to the idea of how analytical and emotional fit together. I need data to respond to. I’m collecting data when I try things on, when I browse online, when I compare measurements. All of that data helps me decide what’s worth ordering and what’s not. And then from there, I keep what I can keep. It sounds like you have a different approach—you know what you want to try on, and you feel pretty confident it’s going to work. And then it does. Anika: I mean, sometimes—especially in this day and age with online shopping—it’s been a tough day and you order something, and suddenly two or three things are in your basket that probably aren’t supposed to be there. But yeah. And actually, you inspired me to do this more often—spending a day with a good friend and just browsing. I don’t think I necessarily take the time to do that, but I should. And I think there’s no right or wrong approach here. Maureen: Totally. And just to be clear, when I say I try on a lot of stuff, it’s usually because I have a very specific idea of what I want, and I’m trying on different versions of the same thing. I’m not trying on things I know I don’t want. For example, I don’t wear yellow, so I’m not trying on yellow. But if I want a gray sweater, I’ll try on quite a few of them. Anika: I completely understand. It can be hard to find the right version, but I think it’s worth trying. Maureen: It is. Yeah. Very interesting. Very interesting. I also wanted to go back to something you mentioned—you said that when you buy something, you want to extend or enhance your wardrobe. I love that idea. Can you say more about what you mean by that? Anika: Yeah, this is probably also a bit of a perfectionist idea, but in the end, I want my wardrobe to represent only what makes sense to me. I’m really intentional about what goes in, like I said. Maureen: Can I check if this is part of what you mean? You don’t buy just to buy—everything has a purpose. Do you buy multiples of things? And if you do, are they very different? How do you know something is extending your wardrobe versus just making things easier? What’s the difference between ease and extension? Anika: I actually don’t buy multiples. I feel like my entire personal style journey is based on upgrading versions of things. Like, let’s take your gray sweater, for instance. For me, it’s oversized blazers. Ten years ago, I started collecting oversized blazers, and I always sell one and then buy an upgraded version that fits my—probably also trend-led—idea of an oversized blazer at that time. So “enhancing” or “extending” a blazer really means buying upgraded versions rather than buying multiples. If you look at my personal style over the last ten years, it’s always been oversized blazers, loafers, ballet flats, coats, trench coats—just in different versions. I sell a lot of clothes secondhand and really try to keep only the things in my wardrobe that I truly love. And I completely understand your idea of trying different versions of a gray sweater. Maureen: Yeah. And when you say “enhanced version,” you mentioned that sometimes that can be trend-led. Is that mostly what you mean, or is there another element? Anika: Yeah, I think it’s mostly—sadly—trend-led. At the moment, it’s exaggerated shoulders, very textured fabrics, that really strong silhouette, like The Frankie Shop, to name a brand. But I also think intuition and the emotional side guide me, too. I’m not only buying enhanced versions because of trends—I’m also buying for a personality that has grown so much over the last ten years. I’ve become more courageous about buying more quote-unquote fashion pieces. I used to be much more of a people pleaser, and now I’ve realized that people don’t really care what you’re wearing. That’s also what makes something like an oversized blazer feel like an enhanced version. Maureen: Yeah. Yeah. No, that’s awesome. I’m with you. Let’s talk about something you mentioned earlier—looking at your wish list. Do you have one? Anika: I actually don’t have a wish list. I have a not-to-buy list. I love the idea of a wish list and the satisfaction of checking things off, but I only have a not-to-buy list. Maureen: So what’s on it right now? Anika: All right, let me check my notes. First—no surprise—sneakers, except maybe one elegant Samba version. Short jackets that don’t cover the hips. I always gravitate toward them, and I always sell them. It goes back to what we talked about earlier—I feel very seen in short jackets, and it’s not comfortable for me. Logo shirts and sweatshirts. Shoes you can’t walk in—I commu

Head’s up—there won’t be an episode next week but don’t worry, we have amazing episodes coming up, including with Anika Krueger , Lindsay Sword and more folks you won’t want to miss! Today’s guest is Traci Landy of Rambling in Style. Traci shares her experience as a college athlete, discovering her creative-side as an adult, and what she’s trying to say with her clothing. Enjoy! Episode Transcript This transcript has been edited for clarity. Welcome Maureen: You’re listening to Intuitive Style , where we believe that everyone has style. I’m Maureen McLennon Welton . In conversation with fantastic guests, we explore how to tap into our style intuition so that we can dress authentically and live fully. Today’s guest is Traci, writer of Rambling in Style on Substack. Traci launched into the scene in the spring and has been lighting up our feeds ever since. And in addition to writing about style, she’s a full-time school teacher and parent. I love her extremely relatable angle as a fellow self-taught personal style enthusiast. I think this is really important kind of representation. Traci, welcome to the show. Traci: Thank you so much for having me. I’m so excited to be here. I’m excited to chat with you. Maureen: One thing I appreciate about your writing is your flexibility and the way that you allow yourself to kind of go where the vibe takes you. So for example, your post about palate cleansers, which aside from being a great lesson in slowing down, also touched on rule breaking. Specifically, you had planned out a handful of outfits and ended up dressing very differently. So what is that decision-making process like, planning outfits and staying flexible? Traci: It’s so funny because all my friends and family would describe me as like the least flexible person in the universe. To say, that this is a skill that I’ve had to really try to build over time is the truth. Our family was going to Aruba and I have been loving using Indyx to digitize my wardrobe and I’ll probably talk about it a lot here and there. I was digitizing my wardrobe, planning a collection of what I was going to wear each day. One of the things when we go away, we have this unspoken family rule that it’s carry-on only. Like we don’t check bags. We refuse to do it. We went to Disney World for like eight days and we did not check a bag. So I’m trying to get everything neatly in my luggage and I plan it down to the T, and I got to Aruba and it’s funny, like you mentioned vibes, the vibes just didn’t feel good. They felt off for what I packed. Old Tracy would have probably went into a panic, right? Of like, but I planned this and I have to take pictures and what about my content and what about my next blog post? And this new Traci 2.0 that I’m really growing into since kind of my Substack launched in the spring has really been kind of like, okay, pause. You don’t really want to get dressed right now. You don’t really want to put on these really cute outfits that you planned. You instead want to focus on just being present with your family. You don’t want to be running around holding your camera, taking pictures. Like it just wasn’t what I wanted to do on the trip. And there was this part of me that felt so guilty, right? Like I was like, I packed these outfits, I have to shoot them, people need to see them, that’s what the people want, and I had to take a minute and say, like, but what do I want? Like right now I want time with my family and right now I want to wear what just feels… I don’t really want to put a heel on or, you know, a pair of shorts that might just feel a little tight right now because I’m having fun with my family and we’re trying all the things. And I think it’s just building that skill of just giving myself permission to say, you can change course, right? Like you don’t have to go into something and say, I’m 100% doing this because it’s what everyone else wants. It was in that moment saying, well, what do I want right now? I want to be comfortable. I don’t wanna wear all these things that I planned out and I wanna enjoy being present with my family. And that’s kind of where that post came from. Like it wasn’t supposed to be that. It was supposed to be everything else. And giving myself grace to say, you can change course and allowing myself, I love to make rules for myself, right? Like I have to wear this or I have to have this done by this day or whatever it is. And a lot of the rules I make for myself, nobody else is making them for me. So in this new 2.0 phase, it’s been a lot of saying like, okay, you can pivot and you can pivot and be okay, right? You don’t have to have this breakdown or this shaming that you didn’t do what you planned. You can just pivot and try something different. When it comes to getting dressed, a lot of what I do is I pivot and I can make those adjustments. But the big thing for me has been like not following that up with shame, right? Of like, you did a bad job or you didn’t do what you said you were going to do. It’s okay to let the world down to take care of yourself. And I think that was that moment. So on this podcast, I try to talk about body awareness. And I think that’s a big part of telling our bodies that, or making sure that our bodies and our minds are in the right roles. Maureen: So I’m just curious, you had mentioned that in the past you would have panicked. This time, how do you make that transition to not panicking when the situation is the same? Do you lead with your mind? Do you lead with your body? Traci: Yeah. I think it’s a lot of leading with my mind because I think that is my worst enemy. And I write about this all the time about like, you know, being a super type B person and sometimes like being a little bit of a hot mess and having to juggle that. And sometimes that can be really stressful, but yeah, I think a lot of it is like conditioning my mind to say like, it’s okay. Like you can make those changes, you can be flexible, you can wear what feels good to you and nobody’s watching. Nobody really, nobody really cares what you’re wearing sometimes. And, you know, I think that’s just like an inner dialogue that I learned with a lot of help to have with myself. Maureen: And in those moments, do you try on the outfit that you were originally thinking and then take it off? Or is it more like you see the outfit in your head and you’re like, I don’t even want to put it on? How does that feel? Traci: So it’s like, I’ll get out of the shower, I’ll get myself ready. And then I’ll look at my phone and I’ll look at the outfit that I planned and I’m just like, no. Yeah. Okay. No, it’s just not today. You know, we’re going to get tacos. I don’t need to wear this gorgeous little look to go get taco meat spilled all over me. It’s just, no, I’m a big vibes person. And when I feel it, I kind of just try to trust my gut and what it’s telling me to do. “No, it’s just not today. We’re going to get tacos. I don’t need to wear this gorgeous little look to go get taco meat spilled all over me…I’m a big vibes person. And when I feel it, I kind of just try to trust my gut and what it’s telling me to do.” - Traci Landy Maureen: Yeah. Thank God for our gut. I’d love to talk about how you decide what to buy and where and what not to buy or wear. Traci: I think I feel like my style evolution has really changed this a lot in my life. One of the things that really attracts me to a piece is colors. And it’s funny, because I’m not a very colorful dresser, but one thing that I really obsess over is the combinations of colors. I always say I’m a huge copycat. I love to see things and put my own twist on it or admire it and appreciate it and try to replicate it in my own way. I never sell myself as an expert or a stylist. I literally am like, I’m a civilian. I’m a mom. I’m just trying to look good. And I’m like, I’m the guinea pig. I’m taking what everyone’s talking about and seeing how I can work it in real life. A lot of what I do is I’ll find color combinations that I really like. And then I’ll focus on a piece or something. And I usually like to then go to Pinterest. Right. And I’ll look and see, like, how can I work this green sweater? And I’ll just search, you know, green sweater outfits. And I’m just kind of looking through them and I’ll sift through them. And any time I find that color that matches this combination that I start to like, then I just start saving it. Right. And then after a while, when I start to see for me, a big thing is like, is it versatile? Like, can I really use this piece? Because if it’s really just this one-trick pony, it’s not worth it for me to invest. Right. I don’t have endless dollars. Like I’m a school teacher, you know, like I’m a mom. And for me, it’s a real careful consideration that most of my friends and family think is absolutely insane. But I like to really just kind of luxuriate in the colors and see if they can work. And I think that’s part of why I love graphics and design so much. I think another thing has really been like for me, as far as buying is finding brands that I really like. And unfortunately, sometimes brands that I like are out of my price range. And I have to be okay with saying like, I can’t afford that, right? Like, I could look secondhand, I could wait, I can hope for a sale, but I think it’s coming to terms with like, where can I get what I’m looking for that’s a good quality, that’s in a range that I feel okay spending. Because there’s nothing that feels worse than overspending for something that doesn’t get its use for me. So with that, I’ve found some brands that I really gravitate to. Like, I’m waiting for J. Crew to call me, like, please. But no, I think I love to, you know, I feel like they really align with my style. I found over the years, for example, Madewell really aligns well with my style. But not only do they align with my style, they align with my budget and how much I’m willing to spend and how much I can spend. I’m also just a really big mood-based dresser. I joke about vibes, and a lot of when I get dressed and gravitate to certain pieces really just has to do with a feeling that it can evoke. And I think those are the biggest things. Maureen: I wanted to go back to color because I’m also very particular about color, and I’ll get kind of a color stuck in my brain and want to buy something in that color. Then I’ll buy the first version of it that I see that is the right proportion or whatever, and then I’ll be like, oh, that wasn’t how I wanted to wear that color. I want to wear that color in a different way, but I bought this thing and now I’m trying to use it. Is this a very me problem, or do you ever do that where you are so caught on a color that you’re not really thinking about how you want to use it and more about using it? Traci: Often. I think this color thing has been something I’ve always dealt with. I am a self-proclaimed Aquarius, and I love announcing to the world that I’m an Aquarius. So there’s this creative edge sometimes that I have, and when it comes to colors, I do something really similar. I’ll find a color and hyper-fixate on how much I love it—maybe it’s cobalt blue—and I just can’t stop thinking about it. Sometimes instead of reaching for the first one I find that I may not really love, I start thinking, I need a cobalt blue sweatshirt, I need a cobalt blue sweater. Then it’s like, okay, I want all these things, but how can I find them at the cheapest price? I go through this whole hamster wheel until I finally have to self-talk myself and say, stop. Do not think about this for a week, then come back to it with a clear mind. Maureen: No, that’s super fair. One thing I do is I’ll buy it in nail polish. Traci: Ooh, yeah. Maureen: That kind of helps me get unstuck a little bit. So we talked a little bit about body awareness, but are there any specific textures, fits, or styles that you gravitate towards because of how they feel on your body or how they make you feel? Traci: Do you mind if I segue a little bit to talk about my journey with body awareness? I felt like there were a couple of big shifts in my life that shaped when I became really aware of the skin I’m in. One of those is college athletics—I played lacrosse in college, and being an athlete very much defined who I was for a big portion of my life. When I think back on my college experience, that was the first time I became hyper-aware of my body. I was lucky to grow up in a home where that was never something I thought about. My parents were incredible. In college, being part of a team made me start not only seeing myself but looking at everyone else. Some things that contributed were a heavy, intense strength and conditioning program where we were Olympic lifting, getting big and strong. It was about who could lift more, which was celebrated. But there was also the weight component; they would measure body composition and clip, you know, love handles. Nobody did it to make us feel bad, but there were conversations about percentages, and mine was never great. We also had to announce what size sweatshirt we wanted—I always got a large while everyone else got small or extra small. I remember being one of the only players who didn’t want to take off my shirt on a trip to Australia because I was with women who were incredibly fit, and that just wasn’t my body type. From then, a long journey of comparing myself, not really loving myself, and wanting something I couldn’t have started. It’s taken a long time to reflect on that and how it shaped how I see myself in the world and how I model behaviors in front of my daughter. College athletics are intense, and you get feedback from all angles—people commenting, parents suggesting exercises. Sophomore year, my eating wasn’t great, I lost a lot of weight, and I looked great from the outside. I got the most positive feedback from the world around me, which taught me that positive attention could come at a personal cost. Just to say, everyone has a journey. We don’t just wake up one day and take outfit selfies loving ourselves. There’s a lot of work that goes into having the courage to do that. After having my kids, it was about trying to re-love my body and accept its changes. I wrote on Substack about my miscarriages and having to learn to love a body that let me down. Only in recent years am I overcoming that. When I think about what I like to wear, it’s important to understand the journey that got me here. Thinking about fabrics and textures—there were times I couldn’t look in the mirror without crying. I love to wear things that are comfortable; if something digs in, I won’t feel good. I love elastic waistbands, satin pants, high-waisted jeans. I would love to be a low-waisted girly—it looks cool—but for my body, high-waisted jeans and oversized clothing feel best. It’s not about not loving my body; it’s about what feels good. Comfort and how I feel in it really dictate what I gravitate to. “When I think about what I like to wear, it’s important to understand the journey that got me here.” - Traci Landy Maureen: There’s so much there. I wanted to go back quickly to your college experience. I personally practice Health At Every Size . For listeners—weight, size, and health are not always equated as we think. That [societal] oversimplification can be harmful, especially when how you feel internally differs from perception. Traci: Yeah. I think it’s about honoring your body, not just others’ perspectives. Safety isn’t only about what others think; it’s a balance. Fashion is also about expression and communication, not just comfort. So what I want the world to know based on what I’m wearing is that I am creative. It might sound unexciting, but it’s about showing that I’m more than a mother, wife, or teacher. I’ve grappled with who I am outside of those roles. I never wanted to lose the artistic, creative piece I discovered as an adult. “What I want the world to know—based on what I’m wearing—is that I am creative. It might sound unexciting, but it’s about showing that I’m more than a mother, wife, or teacher. I’ve grappled with who I am outside of those roles.” - Traci Landy Traci: When I get dressed, it’s a way to express that—to show I have passions beyond family and career, supported by family and friends. I also want to appear approachable. I love the little conversations with people about fashion—compliments, shared admiration—it’s opened doors for friendships and connections in adult life. Maureen: Yeah, I relate so hard. I can’t believe those words are exactly what I would say. You mentioned as you became an adult, you realized you had this creative and artistic passion. Are there any other ways outside of fashion that you dig in or utilize those skills? Tracy: It’s a great one. So I think writing is kind of a way that I’m able to do that. One of the things I love on my blog, which is like, I probably pay way too much attention to it on Substack, are graphics and images. I love design, and no, as far as design in my house, no, I’m not good at that, but when it comes to design, that is something I really enjoy. I started to see it in the classroom as a teacher when I was—yeah, like when I make my worksheets. I taught middle school for a really long time, and my classroom, I wish I had pictures, but it was like straight out of a Pinterest class. It was so intense, and I love color themes and when I would make worksheets, the way I wanted things formatted. I have some amazing colleagues that I work with every day, a couple of women, and they’re always cheering me on in this part of my life. One of the things they always do is they’ll make a worksheet, come up with an idea, and say, “Okay, Traci, make it pretty.” And I’m like, yeah, I got this. I’m changing the margins, and I think the more I started doing that and surrounding myself with people—some of these women included in my family—that were empowering me and saying, “You’re good at this, you should sell your worksheets, or you should write, or share, you should create an Instagram page or a TikTok,” which I can’t do, but just saying, “You should pursue this,” that was huge. I think that’s an area I do need to do a better job of finding other outlets to embrace it. I’ve wrestled with taking a painting class, and I don’t know why I haven’t just done it, but I know it’s something I really want to do and I think I’d really enjoy. It’s all new to me—literally, in the past, believe it or not, maybe under a year, I’ve really been growing into this. My whole first chunk of life was defined by athletics—this is who you are, your box, your niche, this is what you’re really good at. I never took the time to get to know myself and realize that I’m so much more than that. And I think that’s what this new chapter has been. Aside from adult coloring books, there’s more out there for me that I want, and I need to start taking the risks and seeking it out. Maureen: It’s crazy—I just bought an adult coloring book yesterday. Traci: So fun. Maureen: And I mean, I can only speak for myself, but one of the ways that can be hard in 2025 is the pressure to monetize our hobbies and turn these creative expressions into something else. Maybe I’m picking up on that from the suggestions people were giving me as well, and maybe the painting class. Does any part of that feel selfish or wrong if you’re not going to monetize it? I don’t want to put words in your mouth. Tracy: No, I think no, because for me, really, when I say it really is creative expression, I really mean that. I wrote a post about being on Instagram and struggling with content creation. I was comparing myself to everybody—why doesn’t anyone like my stuff? I was trying to engage with people and try, and it became this mind wrestle. My daughter came up one day while I was trying to make a reel, which I can’t do—I’m so bad at them. She watched me laughing and asked, “Can I see it?” We would watch them, and then she said,

This week, Lee Alisha of Wearing on My Mind joins to share about her experience returning to self-confidence after loss and the role of bright color in showing her transformation! We also celebrate Lee’s recent completion of an MFA, discuss why writing on Substack is a breath of fresh, and how she decides what to buy and wear. Enjoy! Episode Transcript This transcript has been edited for clarity. Welcome You’re listening to Intuitive Style , where we believe that everyone has style. I’m Maureen McLennon Welton . In conversation with fantastic guests, we explore how to tap into our style intuition so that we can dress authentically and live fully. Maureen: Today’s guest bounded onto my Substack feed with joy, enthusiasm, and bright color. While she might be slightly newer to our Substack feeds, she’s been making style and beauty content on Instagram for a minute, which is equally as delightful as her writing style. Lee, welcome to the show. Lee: Thank you so much. Thank you for that introduction. It’s so sweet. Maureen: I love seeing a new creator come on to Substack and just have such a clear perspective, POV, and you certainly accomplished that. Lee: Thank you. Maureen: So with that, my first introduction to you was a post about your experience wearing vibrant colors over the summer and how that improved your self-esteem. For anyone who hasn’t read that newsletter yet, what changed and encouraged you to start showing up in that way? Lee: So I was actually maybe like a month and a half ago just looking through my camera roll and I noticed that most of my summer outfits—anytime I took a photo—it was some vibrant color or print. And I was like, I need to write about this because I didn’t realize how happy it was making me and how comfortable I felt in all those vibrant colors and everything. A few years ago, right when COVID happened, I was a junior in college. All my classes were online. I was isolated. I was grieving the loss of a loved one. So I was not connected to myself at all—you know, a lot of people weren’t during that time. And I started to not express myself anymore through the clothes that I was wearing. Prior to COVID and all that, I felt pretty confident in my skin and what I was wearing. My style has changed so much since then, but when COVID hit, I just started to hide myself. I hid my body. I was wearing more darker colors—nothing like the prints that I did this summer at all. And so, yeah, when I saw all the photos of myself from this summer, I wanted to write about it because it honestly surprised me that I wasn’t realizing that that self-confidence came back. And it reminded me of when we’re kids and we don’t care what anyone thinks and we’ll just wear whatever we want to wear. So, yeah. Maureen: Beautiful to hear that we can go through a period of kind of darkness and sadness and hiding, and sometimes we are lucky in the way that we can just find joy again without necessarily having to be super intentional about it. Sometimes it can just surprise us. And in that way, grief is non-linear and it’s surprising in all these ways. Were you shopping differently, or was it more just like you’d had these clothes beforehand and were just choosing to wear darker colors versus now choosing to wear bright colors? How was that materially different? Lee: That’s a good question. Some of the pieces I had, but a lot of them are new. I’ve been fortunate to work with some brands that have gifted me some items, so that has kind of propelled me out of my comfort zone—just working with different women-owned, small-owned brands. But personally, I don’t really know what it was. I just started to embrace things that maybe would have made me uncomfortable in the past, especially because I live in Florida. We had a very hot summer, and I was like, I can’t do the oversized dark shirt and leggings every day—I need to cool off. So I started to wear a lot more linen, and some of the linen pieces that I bought had prints or patterns and colors—it wasn’t just tan or white. So, you know, just making sure that I felt comfortable in extreme heat and also wanting to look cute in my own sense of style and everything. Maureen: I love that too, and this is one of the reasons that I have a podcast about this. Because I think sometimes it can feel like there’s only one way to do things. And I’m highly analytical—so when I’m shopping for my closet, nine times out of ten, it’s with extreme precision and intention and I overthink it. And I think what I’m hearing from what you’re saying is it was a little bit more organic and you were just kind of drawn toward these bright colors compared to when you were drawn toward darker colors. Am I oversimplifying that process, or was there more analytical decision-making behind that? Which, for the record, if it is very organic, I’m jealous. Lee: Right? Well, I’d say if I’m just shopping for everyday basics—like things that I can wear with five different outfits and remix—I may be a bit more analytical about that because I want to make sure it’ll last and I can get a lot of usage out of it. But, you know Like in that newsletter, I had this green caftan on. When I got that, I wasn’t like, “Yeah, I’m gonna wear this every single day.” You know what I mean? I was like, I know this is probably gonna be a piece that sits in the closet, but it makes me happy and I will wear it. But it’s not gonna be like an everyday item, you know? So I think the analytical, almost logical clothes-eye kind of goes out the window for me if it’s something I really, really like that may not be something I wear every day. Maureen: It’s awesome to give yourself permission to do that. That’s how we interject things that we didn’t even know that we wanted. Sometimes we’re just drawn to something like a moth to a flame. You also mentioned in the post there was a specific outfit that you wouldn’t have worn a few years ago. I think it was a little bit preppier or something like that. And I was just wondering—can you share more about maybe what changed your mind or how that change occurred, basically? Lee: I remember the dress you were talking about. I think it was the one where I didn’t have sleeves, and it had stripes. Yeah, so that was one of those linen pieces I was telling you about. I felt really cool in it, I didn’t get hot in that dress—it was a very comfortable piece of clothing. But a few years ago, I wouldn’t have worn it. Not because of the print or the color, but literally because of the arms—it didn’t have sleeves at all. And, you know, during COVID and isolation, I started to feel very aware of my body, but then also pick up little things that now I can look back and be like, I was being way too hard on myself. Like, I’m blessed to have this body and to be able, you know what I mean? But back then, I was just looking at my body and picking all these little things apart. And back then, I just did not like my arms out. I needed sleeves. I just wanted to be covered, you know? “I’m blessed to have this body” - Lee Alisha And so that piece—I love that dress so much today. I don’t have a second thought about my arms or anything. But like I said, that didn’t happen overnight, you know? Because I felt those insecurities like four or five years ago, and now it’s 2025, and I still have my moments and stuff. It’s not perfect, you know, but I just try to show up for myself and not be hard on myself, especially when it comes to what I’m putting on my body and how I feel, you know? Maureen: I know that you said you were grieving the loss of a loved one around that time, but it’s just crazy the way that COVID had such an impact on how we were all feeling. I also look back at pictures from a couple of years ago, and at the time I would look at those pictures and be horrified by my appearance. And it was just—like—totally normal. My body was so normal. And I just had this horrible lens on it. And now I look back at those pictures and I [see something really positive]. I see such a different version of myself. And for me, I would say partially that just comes with getting used to maybe looking different if your body’s changed. But also, I think there’s really something to what you’re saying about maybe it was just the COVID of it all — and how much time we had to just sit on our phones. I don’t know. Do you feel like that’s part of it? Lee: I mean, I kind of do, because I remember early days it was like, “Don’t go outside.” So it’s like, okay, well, I’m just going to sit inside. And sitting inside just became my normal, because like I said, all my classes were online. My classes continued to be remote until I graduated in 2022. So I was not on campus for almost a year and a half, almost two years. I just got comfortable with the four walls of my apartment—and I was like, it’s fine, it’s great, you know? That just became normal. Then, when it was time to go outside and see your friends and loved ones, that felt strange. You kind of want to hide yourself or just stay where you feel safe, you know? Maureen: I totally relate to that. I think that’s so fair. I mean, especially — I can’t even imagine college virtually. You sound very resilient and like you got through it and made the best of it, but I mean definitely, I think even now I’m still trying to figure out how to get myself out of the house sometimes. Because it still feels like—I don’t know, wrong sometimes. I get what you’re saying. Lee: Because when COVID first happened, I was like, “Oh, I am so happy to have online classes,” because I’m an introvert. I love having my own space. I was also a creative writing major, so I was like, I’m going to romanticize this. I get to sleep in, make my coffee, read my books, and do my English literature and stuff. But then, you know, a few months of that goes by and it does a number on you. But I see what you mean about going out now. I mean, I do think there’s a difference between, you know, really wanting to protect your peace and enjoy your own company—because I do that a lot today. I live in Tampa, and I’ve lived here for the past six or seven years. A few years ago, I could go downtown in like 30 minutes. It’d be a 30-minute drive. But now it could be like an hour because of the drivers and the amount of people here. Sometimes I just don’t want to deal with that. But that’s—you know—I don’t see that as me isolating myself. So I feel you on how sometimes it just feels hard to even go out now. But, you know, it could just be that you want to have your peace. Maureen: Totally. And it’s not black or white — it’s definitely about figuring out the right balance. Am I mistaken in congratulating you on your MFA? Lee: Yes, yes — I graduated last month! Maureen: Okay, oh my gosh, congratulations! Lee: Thank you. Maureen: How do you feel having that degree? How does that impact your outlook? Lee: I feel really good. I can’t say enough great things about the program. I went to the University of Georgia, and it was their narrative nonfiction program. I still talk to all my classmates who I graduated with and some of my professors — it was just an amazing experience. I’ve always wanted to write a personal essay collection, and that two-year program really gave me the skills but also the confidence to achieve that goal of mine. So I feel a lot more confident when I’m writing and doing my own thing. But that’s part of the reason why I do love Substack and writing about style — because a lot of the things I write on the side, the stuff I want to be in a book one day, can be very emotionally heavy. So doing these shorter-form posts about color and style and whatever else — that feels good. It’s nice to have that balance. But thank you for saying congrats. I’m still kind of in a grieving period, honestly, because I can’t believe it’s actually over. Maureen: That’s fair — and good for you for recognizing [the grief]! Sometimes when we get to the end of a big accomplishment, we’re like, “Why am I not magically happy?” And it’s like, oh — because maybe you actually liked the experience of going through it, having your friends around, all of that. Lee: Yeah, no, that’s so real. Maureen: So again, congrats — and again, welcome to Substack. Especially, it’s always nice to hear that professional writers are still using the platform — I say that without a professional writing degree myself. Lee: Girl, you don’t need a professional writing degree! I mean, I’ll be honest — when I started posting on Substack, I think it was last January. I was doing more like fashion roundups — like “this deal, that deal” — and I still like reading that kind of stuff. But I took a break for a while this year just to finish school and everything. Coming back to the platform and finding you and other writers — I’ve just felt very inspired. Because, I mean, everything that you publish, it’s like a personal essay — it’s stunning. And I love that. It’s nice seeing what other people have to say, and you can tell everyone’s writing with a lot of heart. That’s beautiful. Enjoying this interview? Subscribe now to be notified when future episodes drop! Or consider upgrading your subscription to support this work. Maureen: Yeah, I appreciate that. And same with your writing, right? I think this is a perfect segue — thank you. What’s really nice about writing on Substack in particular is that the long-form medium — you can do this on YouTube as well — but the long-form medium allows so much more complexity in why people are choosing what they buy. In broad strokes, how do you decide what to buy and where — and how do you decide what not to buy or where? Lee: So when deciding what to buy, if reviews are available, I love to look at reviews. And then also, there are certain brands that I’ve really liked in the past where I’m like, okay, I have to be careful today, because I don’t know if I’ll wash this item three times and then it’s just not doing it anymore. You know, like Gap, Banana Republic — even though I’ve been loving what both of them have been putting out lately — but I’m still like, yeah, you have that hesitance. Plus, since I don’t have a full-time job right now, I’m even more careful about where my money’s going, because I don’t want it to either not fit and I can’t return it, or it was a bit on the pricier side and it’s just not what I thought it would be. I try to just sit on things for a while and not do the impulse buy. Because a few years ago, I was always doing that. I’d go to Target every weekend because I love a good bargain, and I’d just look at everything. I haven’t been to Target in months now. So I just try to be careful — and also ask myself, you know, will I be able to wear this a lot? Can I wear it with other items? Is it versatile? And if it’s not—like some of those vibrant dresses I wrote about—then I ask myself, does this really make me happy? Do I want it because I like it, or because it looked good on someone else? I try to really hone in on my motivation for liking something. When it comes to what not to buy—honestly, if it’s out of budget, that’s usually the main thing. I’ll save a photo or a link and think, this is really pretty—maybe one day. Also, if I’m not sure something will fit my body type—I’m very curvy on the bottom—I tend to steer away, especially if it’s just a trend on social media. If it might not work for me, that’s okay. I try not to give too much energy to trends. I just observe and appreciate from afar. Maureen: Yeah, it’s always good to know what’s not for us. I guess the other question, kind of off that, is—do you ever feel like there’s such a thing as enough with clothing? Do you ever reach a place where you’re satisfied with what you have? Or is that still something you’re reaching for? I ask because I’ve gone through a lot of style transitions—mostly unintentional, as my body size and shape changed—and I still feel like I’m trying to get to some sort of “goal.” Have you ever experienced a feeling of enough or satisfaction? Lee: Totally, yeah. I’ve felt that before, but then I’ve also had moments where I realize I need new things. Like, during COVID, my body changed—I gained some weight—so I had to buy new clothes that fit this new body. And I was fine with that. I wasn’t going to wear clothes that didn’t feel good. But now, some of those clothes need replacing again, so it’s a cycle. At this point, if I look in my closet, I do feel like, this is enough—I have what I need. But there are always things I want. And honestly, social media feeds into that. Let’s be real—if we didn’t have magazines, trend forecasts, or constant content showing us what’s “in,” I think our wish lists would be much shorter. There are things I want, sure, but do I need them? No. Maureen: Yeah. And I ask that because you sound very level-headed and grounded when you talk about shopping and buying things. I wanted to acknowledge that, because like you said, there’s so much messaging out there telling us what we have isn’t enough—it’s such a trap. I guess I just wanted to see if I was reading you right, because you sound really at peace with what you have, and I think that’s amazing. Lee: Thank you, that’s really sweet. Honestly, I think it’s because I was laid off last year. Since then, I’ve been jumping from freelance position to freelance position, and being on a budget has forced me to hold myself accountable for my spending habits. When I had a full-time job, I’d justify little purchases as rewards. But now that I don’t have that steady income, I’ve had to chill out a bit. I also started creating fashion and beauty content after I was laid off, just because I had more time. But even with that, I’ve always wanted to stay true to myself. I never want to come across like I’m shouting at people— “you need this product or your skin will never look good” —because that’s just not me. There’s nothing wrong with creators who do that, but I never wanted to feel loud or pushy. And honestly, when you consume too much of that kind of content, you start believing you really do need all those things—which you probably don’t. So I try to stay intentional with what I create, and I think that’s carried over into how I shop and what I buy personally. Maureen: Yeah, and that’s so important—to know what you want to communicate as a creator. You’re doing that really effectively. So with that said—you mentioned earlier that being on Substack has been really inspiring for you. Knowing that you’re not necessarily writing about shopping right now, what’s inspiring or exciting you to write these days? Lee: Honestly, the free time I have now. No, but really—I was so excited to get back into Substack and just do my little blogging again. It feels therapeutic. I love putting everything together in the Substack CMS—the graphics, the layout, all of it. And lately, it’s been amazing connecting with so many new people. A few months ago, before you and I connected, my feed didn’t look the way it does now. Now it feels like people are really supporting each other, and that’s such a nice energy. Seeing that community makes me want to keep returning. And I think part of it, too, is trying to create a routine for myself—posting maybe once a week or every two weeks. You know, I had a really regimented school schedule, and I was so exhausted after graduating—happy, of course, but definitely tired. I needed a few weeks just to breathe. Doing short posts on Substack has really helped me feel like I can take steps toward my writing goals again—working on my book, writing on the side. So yeah, Substack has been really helpful. Maureen: Super cool. So, what advice would you give to someone trying to build a wardrobe that feels intuitive and authentic to them? Lee: I’d say just stay true to yourself. We were talking earlier about that “fake it till you make it” mindset—wearing things outside your comfort zone—and I think that can work sometimes. But for me, whenever I tried to do that, I just ended up feeling uncomfo

We’re in the middle of season two and there’s so much good yet to come! Upcoming episodes include fellow writers Lee Alisha , Traci Landy , and Anika Krueger — I cannot wait for you to hear them! Make sure you’re subscribed so you get notified when upcoming episodes drop, and consider sharing with someone you think would enjoy the show! Today’s episode features tastemaker, Parisian style enthusiast, film photographer, and all-around cool girl (who’s also really kind) OFELIA . We get into the differences between film and fashion, what it means to be a tastemaker, how dressing in Paris is different from dressing in Austin, and more. Enjoy! Episode Transcript This transcript has been edited for clarity. Welcome You’re listening to Intuitive Style , where we believe that everyone has style. I’m Maureen McLennon Welton . In conversation with fantastic guests, we explore how to tap into our style intuition so that we can dress authentically and live fully. Today’s guest is OFELIA , writer of All The Above on Substack. She has a discerning eye for fashion, film photography, and vibes. You’ve probably come across her What’s Everyone Wearing in Paris series, or my personal favorite, Outfits Inspired by Film , featuring her original images. Best of all, she’s a self-proclaimed outfit repeater and looks great while doing it. Ofelia, welcome to the show. Ofelia: Thank you so much for having me. I’m so excited to be here. Maureen: One of the key themes of All the Above is about your experience living in Paris, being from the U.S. originally. I’d love to hear how your style has changed between living in the U.S. and in Paris. How has the change of scenery impacted your style? Ofelia: Yeah, definitely. It’s changed quite a bit, I would say. For some additional context, I moved from Austin, Texas, where there’s maybe like two seasons—or one giant season and a couple months of mild winter. I didn’t really have to account for a lot of fluctuation. I mostly had to account for a lot of heat living in Austin. Moving to Paris, I now have to account for actually living in four different seasons, and even within a single season there’s a lot of fluctuation. I’ve had to get really good at layering, and I also have to account for how hot I’m going to get while walking places—which is something I hadn’t really had to think about before because I was driving everywhere and not moving as much. So now I start by opening the window every day and sticking my hand out to get a feel for the baseline temperature, then I either add or take off layers based on that. So, in terms of how much I’m wearing, it’s changed quite a bit. Maureen: That’s so interesting because, you know, I would think that the key change would be like, “I dress more fabulously now.” And I think you’d probably say that’s the case—but so much of what I just heard in that answer is about very practical changes. You’re more exposed to the elements, you’re walking more. It’s really interesting to talk about car culture and how that affects what we wear versus public transport culture. For me, I live in a car place right now in the Bay Area. And that means that, for example, when I was in Seattle recently, I wore Birkenstocks everywhere because the whole point was walking. But in the Bay Area, depending on what you’re doing, you’re just driving up to a restaurant. It’s really different. How do you find ways to be creative with that practical requirement versus just defaulting to what’s most convenient? Is there tension there at all? Ofelia: I think it really depends on the outdoor elements. One of my biggest struggles is the rain. I don’t have a solid rain shoe, and it’s actually really interesting—when we moved in December last year, I didn’t realize how rainy January and winter in general would be. It rained a lot . At the time, I only had a few pairs of shoes, and the ones I wore most were suede tennis shoes—not great for rain. So now, as we’re approaching that season again, I’m thinking, “Okay, I really need to get a rain shoe figured out.” I could wear tennis shoes, but my feet would get soaked. I still remember the feeling of my toes being wet outside! So yes, there is tension—but it’s mostly between utility and aesthetics. Like, how is this going to be cute while still functional? It’s interesting, though, because when we talk about comfort, I think that changes from person to person, but also within the same person from place to place. Before the pandemic, I would wear leggings, a sweater, and tennis shoes—that sounded comfortable to me. But in Paris, that’s frowned upon. I don’t really wear leggings outside of working out anymore. Now, when I think of comfort, I think, okay, I’m dressing down, but I’m still wearing jeans. Depending on the season, that might mean a flowy blouse or, like today, a sweater layered over a t-shirt. This morning I was wearing loafers, but I had to run an errand and changed into tennis shoes. The tension is still there, but I kind of balance it out throughout the day—appeasing one side of my brain at a time. Sometimes I’ll think, “My toes need a break,” so I’ll wear tennis shoes today so I can wear cute flats tomorrow. Maureen: Yeah, and maybe this is encouragement—but I’d love if you wrote a post about what Parisians wear in the rain! The Bay Area is surprisingly rainy—we really only have two seasons, the wet and the dry. When it rains, it pours . I’ve been trying to figure out my own rain situation, so very selfishly, I’d love a post on that. Ofelia: On it. I think I have more mental capacity this year to do it versus last year. Maureen: I have a bit of an ephemeral question, but I’m hoping you’ll go there with me. I’d love to talk about the intersection between your film photography and your interest in personal style. How do those two relate to you? And how do they differ? Ofelia: I think that’s actually a really interesting question. I think they both exist on a spectrum, and I’d say they’re quite similar in a few senses. Film photography has so many ranges within it, right? I’m not sure how familiar you are with film cameras, but you can buy a point-and-shoot, a disposable, or you can get really technical and buy manual cameras where you’re adjusting every tiny thing. And I think when we also think about style, it’s similar. We can hop on the trends and say, “I like that, I like that,” and that’s totally valid and fine. Or we can really discern what we actually like—what makes us feel interested or alive, what gives us that fun spark inside. For me, film photography does that—it gives me that same sense of discovery and play. So when I compare both mediums, they’re on the same spectrum. One is often more expensive and technical, while the other can be looser and more forgiving. Maureen: And which one feels more technical for you personally? Ofelia: For me, film photography is more technical. In terms of style, I guess let me backtrack a little. I didn’t really start thinking about how I was getting dressed until post-pandemic, which is interesting because that’s also when I started getting into film photography—around the same time. A while back, I wrote an article about what I called the Five Hierarchies of Fashion . At the very base level, you just need something to wear. Once that need is satisfied, you might start asking, “Do I actually like what I’m wearing?” Then, after that, you start thinking about the fabrics—how they feel on your body, how long they last. Once you’ve figured that out, maybe you start asking about sustainability practices. So, to me, I’ve reached a certain level of technicality within fashion. But compared to others, I’m not extremely technical yet—like when it comes to proportions or sleeve cuts, I’m still learning. So in that sense, film photography feels more technical for me because I dove deep into that world much more rapidly. But the technicality in fashion absolutely exists—it just depends on what people are interested in at a given moment. And those interests can shift drastically over the years. Maureen: I’d love your perspective on that “ramp up” between the two. From my point of view, clothing technicality feels extremely high-effort and high-resource to climb, in terms of that hierarchy you mentioned. How do you feel the two compare? Does one have a higher barrier to entry than the other? Or does it just depend on your level of interest? Ofelia: I think it depends on your level of interest. You could very easily start flirting with film photography by picking up a point-and-shoot camera—it’s a little more advanced than a disposable, but maybe it has a zoom lens or lets you turn the flash on and off. That kind of gets you in the mindset of thinking, Okay, I want a slightly better photo than a disposable, but I’m not quite ready for full manual yet. And fashion is similar. We can think, Okay, I want a white t-shirt. And that’s such a big, ongoing debate—what’s the best white t-shirt? But I don’t think there’s a right or wrong answer. It’s more like: What are you looking for? How do you want it to lay on your body? Do you want a baby tee? Do you want pointelle? Or even—do you want a white t-shirt at all? And so I think it’s really the curiosity around what you’re trying to get to that pushes and propels you in that direction. Maureen: Hmm, I love that. And such a good analogy too. You know, separately, I’ve been thinking about this same concept—I didn’t realize you had an amazing post on it! I’m going to read it right after and link it in the show notes. I’ve been thinking about that idea of “levels” too. I feel like personally I’m phasing up into a higher level of personal style. For a while, I was just getting dressed, putting clothes on my body—it felt very survival mode, with some moments of joy and self-actualization. But now I feel like I’m moving into a place of, oh, I really do like this , and I don’t connect with that , in a much more intentional and exciting way. You kind of alluded to where you feel that you are—are you trying to go further up the ranks, or do you feel like you’re in a place of stasis? How do you think about that for yourself? Ofelia: No, I don’t think personal style is ever-ending, to be honest. I think we all reach certain plateaus where we stay for a bit—we’re content where we are—and then something happens that propels us forward again. When we allow ourselves perspective, that’s when those big jumps happen. What I mean is, you get up and get dressed every day, and eventually you realize, okay, I have a solid outfit that I really love. For example, I love button-downs. I have so many ways I can style them. But then there comes a point where I think, I’ve worn a lot of button-downs lately… I need something else. How am I going to change this? And it doesn’t always have to be an insane shift. Like this year, brooches have been huge—and still are. I saw people pin them along the button placket or on sleeves. Just yesterday, I saw someone—I think her name is Michelle Lynn, though I might be getting that wrong—who added a brooch to the back of her button-down. It created this really interesting silhouette, and I thought, Whoa, I never would’ve thought of that, but I kind of want to try it. So I think I’m currently in between stages. I’m really happy with where I am, but it’s hard not to want to be here while also wanting to be there , if that makes sense. Sometimes I just wish someone could pull me up to the next level—but I know that’s not how it works. Another hard part for me is that I’m a very slow shopper. My wishlist is endless, but if you put money in front of me and said, “Make a decision,” I’d freeze unless I’d been thinking about it for a long time. It’s both a blessing and a curse. So, to answer your question, I’m happy where I am—but I’m thinking about what will propel me toward where I want to go next. Maureen: Yeah, and the brooch is a great example. Are there any other things that have caught your eye—things you’re thinking about trying? Is it more about styling, or specific garments? Ofelia: There are definitely a lot of garments I’d love to try. And honestly, I wish there were more rental options like Rent the Runway here in France. There are a few, but they’re mostly geared toward special occasions—like weddings or formal events. I’d love to be able to rent everyday pieces just to experiment. For example, I’m really fascinated by suede. I’d love to try—well, one day I’d love to own a suede jacket—but suede is such a personal material. You really have to try on a lot to find the right fit. I love it on other people, but I haven’t yet found one that makes me want to actually splurge, because it’s not cheap. But I think one thing that I’m fascinated by—and I actually did try, I just didn’t buy at that time—mules. Paloma Wool, the Spanish brand, had a pop-up in Paris during the early summer. And I actually went in because I just happened to be perusing—I love perusing—and this pair of sandals caught my eye. I went back before it closed, and they happened to have the mules. I was like, you know what, I’ll just try them on. And they were these beautiful mules, but they had calf hair on them. It’s not something that I would ever, ever consider on a website. But the fact that I tried it on and I was like, wait a second, this is actually really, really cool —since then, I’ve been fascinated with this idea of a mule, but like also the idea of a mule as a very cool statement piece, if that makes sense. Maureen: That’s awesome. I’m also thinking about how to… well, I came from the other direction of—I love calf hair and I’ve always loved calf hair—and I’m like, oh, how can I inject that into my style? I’m trying to figure out what garment to apply that on. But I think that’s really interesting. There are so many different ways to conceptualize our wish lists. For me, it’s like I usually have a very specific concept in mind and I’m trying to find the right puzzle piece. Maybe you feel that way too—or even the suede jacket, it sounds like, or suede in general—is kind of like your equivalent of that. And then there are also those little diamonds, you know, that really get the sparkle in our eye. There’s kind of a mix between those two that drives our taste and our excitement. Super interesting. I’m excited to see what happens for you with those. I also, on that vein—I would consider you a tastemaker, right? You have the most beautiful flat lays, your series about what people are wearing. And even just hearing your take on being a very slow shopper yourself—I can just speak from my perspective—sometimes I feel like I need to personally embody the taste that I have in order to feel like I am a tastemaker. How do you feel about that—the idea of embodying a taste versus having a taste and presenting it in a visual way? Is there tension for you between the two, or do you view them as separate? Ofelia: I think, you know, there is a little bit of tension because I don’t consider myself a tastemaker. So you calling me a tastemaker—that’s so surprising. I’m insanely flattered, to be honest. I think there is a bit of tension because maybe my idea of what a tastemaker is could be different. To me, a tastemaker is potentially ahead of the curve. They’re the ones maybe not dictating, but being interested in what’s fringe before it becomes popular. Obviously, fashion is cyclical, right? But they’re like the early adopters. When we talk about technology, they’re the early adopters. And I feel like I’m a slow adopter in that sense, just from my consumption point of view. But when I think of embodiment, I think the people who are the most authentic to themselves are those who wear their clothes and don’t let their clothes wear them—if that makes sense. It’s the individual, where they step into an outfit and it feels so much like them , regardless of where it falls within the trend cycle. And, you know, it’s actually really interesting because I lean very minimal, but I am absolutely enamored and fascinated by women who wear bold prints—especially women who mix prints a lot—because my brain does not function like that, you know? So to me, I’m like, they are the tastemakers. They are the really cool people. So maybe, to me, a tastemaker is someone who is the opposite of what I am. Yeah, I think I need to sit with that one more. Maureen: Well, I heard this quote a while ago that said, “When you’re an artist, you’re refining your art to a degree where you hope that it looks like someone else made it.” Like, it’s not going to be good enough until it doesn’t look like it was mine. And I wonder if there’s a little bit of that tension here, where—certainly I don’t view myself as a tastemaker—but I put that out into the ether as something I wanted. And then someone was like, “I think of you as one.” And I was like, what? Even just in our conversation, it’s the same kind of idea. To me, you’re a tastemaker not because you’re cutting edge, but because you’re extremely discerning and you have a very clear point of view of what you think is stylish and tasteful for you . And to me, that’s taste-making—because of the restraint. I’m not saying my definition is right or yours is right or wrong—I like that they’re different. Ofelia: I actually love the quote you brought up, and I think it healed many parts of me that were potentially broken. I very much agree with that quote, especially from my photography point of view. I am so hypercritical of what I put out there. Sometimes it’s a struggle to share my work or even to write articles about style where I’m featured—like “What I Wore in Paris”—because I often think, well, what if it’s boring? What if no one likes it? And I have to push myself to go back to, Why did I start writing? Why did I start photography? Why did I start sharing? It’s because I wanted to. I wanted to put my voice out there. And if I like it, if I felt good wearing that outfit—who cares what Sally, Sue, and Betty down the street think, you know? I think the theme of this entire conversation is going to be tension. It actually makes me think of something—whenever I’m walking down the street with my husband, my brain just kind of turns off. Like, you know that gif of the little penguin walking? That’s me with my husband. My brain turns off, I’m just following him wherever we’re going. And he’s like, “Do you notice all the people that stare at you when we’re walking down the street?” And I’m like, “No, I don’t.” And he’s like, “Yeah. It’s men and women.” And I’m like, “Oh, I’ve never really noticed.” And he’s like, “Yeah, a lot of people turn and look at you.” And it’s really interesting because my first response is, Why are they doing that? Then I think, Is there something on my outfit? Do I have toilet paper on my shoe? It’s so interesting how your brain just wants to bring you down several notches while the rest of the world sees you in such a different light. That kind of reminds me of that quote—it’s like, we want to be perceived so differently from our own point of view. But when other people recognize us for who we are, it’s like, wait a second, what’s going on here? Maureen: Mm-hmm. I think this, to me, is a healing conversation too. Because for so much of my life, I’ve taken in fashion content by other people. And yes, you can write about insecurity, you can express uncertainty—but having a larger discussion about is this good enough? Am I good enough? Is the outfit good enough? —that’s so real. You didn’t say those exact words, but I think that’s the core of the discussion: this feeling of enoughness. What is enough? And when you’re a passive consumer of other people’s fashion or personal style content, it can be hard not to assume it’s always sunshine and rainbows and this confident glow that’s just always there. But maybe that’s not the case for everyone. Maybe some people do have that. But I really appreciate you sharing that—it’s not always super easy. Ofelia: It’s not — and I’m

Today’s episode is a fun one, featuring a very popular content creator on Instagram—who may be less well known on Substack. She’s a real treat. Enjoy! Episode Transcript This transcript has been edited for clarity. Welcome You’re listening to Intuitive Style , where we believe that everyone has style. I’m Maureen McLennon Welton . In conversation with fantastic guests, we explore how to tap into our style intuition so that we can dress authentically and live fully. Today’s guest is Cara Wengen , aka plus size Zoë Kravitz, which is obviously iconic. She’s a big thrifter, works in an art gallery, major, and has the best taste in music. Welcome to the show, Cara. Cara: Thank you so much. I’m so excited to be here. Maureen: Likewise, I’m excited to talk to you. You just kind of recently barreled in, in the absolute best way, through my Instagram feed. And I was like—hold on, I need to know this person. She needs to come on the podcast. Everyone needs to know about what she’s doing. So I’m so glad that you said yes. I’d just love to really kick us off with your content creation origin story. What got you to start posting your outfits online? I know it’s kind of a scary thing. Cara: Yeah, so I think probably very similarly to many other people, I was just kind of scrolling. I don’t want to say addicted to TikTok, but using TikTok frequently and Instagram frequently and seeing these people who are getting PR sent to them—like free stuff. And I was like, mail is so cool in general. Like when you get a personalized letter, you’re like, this is awesome. Imagine getting clothing that you like sent to you or shoes or jewelry. And I was like, I want that to happen to me. So for that reason alone, I was like, I’m just going to start posting. So that was probably like 2023. I was dabbling, just kind of casually posting once in a while. And then I made a pact to myself: in January of 2024, my New Year’s resolution was I’m going to post a video a day. Might miss some days, if that happens, that’s cool. But I’m going to post nonstop for all of 2024 and just see what happens. And that’s honestly how it started. I started with outfit videos and then a lot of people were asking where I got my clothes and how I was finding them, and that turned into more thrifting videos, which is really my niche little corner of the internet. So it’s been wonderful. I’ve created an incredible community of people, and that is really the gift of it all. It’s not the PR, it’s the people. But yeah, that’s why I started. Maureen: Yeah. And what’s the experience been like to actually be posting and being online? How does it feel? Cara: Yeah. So I would say that at first, when I first got started and really started pouring effort into creating content, it was overwhelming. You know, I didn’t understand how to use the platforms, how to edit. I wasn’t in like a rhythm of filming and I kind of got burnt out. And I feel like that happens to a lot of creators when they first start out. They’re like, oh, I’m gonna do all of this stuff and keep going and going and going, and then nothing’s gonna happen, so I’m just gonna give up. And if that doesn’t happen to everybody, that’s amazing, but a lot of the people that I’ve spoken to, that happens to. So that was really frustrating at first, and I just kind of soldiered through it, brought those concerns to the community of people that were actually cheering me on every single day. And they were like, just keep going, just keep doing it. And that’s what I’ve been doing, and that’s the mentality I’ve had. Instead of killing myself trying to create content, I kind of have now found a way to incorporate it into my everyday life. So I have a routine. I film my outfit video in the same location every day, same time. If I’m going thrifting, I automatically have my little tripod and I’m filming everything. Everything is content for me now, which has really changed the way that I’m interacting with creating content. Editing gets a lot easier after you know how to do it—that’s probably one of the hardest things to learn. And then also just communicating with people and engaging, that’s important too. And I think that setting time limits for yourself for that is also really important, because I think it’s really easy to get caught up in, “Oh, I have to reply to every single comment.” You should, you should, you know, for your sake and your page—but I think also you need to get out of the online world and into your real life a lot. That’s just something that I had to kind of learn along the way and along the journey as well. Maureen: It’s like set time limits for yourself to do those interactions and that engagement. And I wanted to ask you about this because, you know, as a creator myself in different ways, I find so many parallels with the experience of writing content with the experience of personal style. In the way that you have to try new things, especially if you want your personal style to move in a new direction or if you’re trying to push yourself out of your comfort zone—it can take time to get used to. And so I just think it’s really fun to see the comparison, and not just talk about personal style all the time, because I think it’s good to have inspiration from everywhere. So I guess I’m curious—with that disclaimer—how, if anything, do you think your personal style has changed through being a content creator? Or do you feel that it’s pretty similar? Cara: Yeah, no, my style has definitely changed. And I attest that to the fact of documentation. Literally, that was my pact to myself for 2024: every day I’m waking up and posting a video. So every day I have footage of myself on camera. And in doing that, you kind of see—oh, that looks good (or what I think looks good, because that’s all relative). Or, oh, I can really see the way that I’m more confident in this outfit versus that outfit. Why is that? You notice things like, oh, I’m wearing this skirt in a lot of videos—that must be one of my staple items that I’m reaching for all the time. Those things just kind of naturally happen. It’s been super interesting, because pre-documentation, my style was just kind of all over the place. So if anything, it’s really helped me hone in on what I prefer to wear. And also I get inspired by other content creators and celebrities, because I’m so online that I’m exposed to more—which is really cool. Like, I’ll see something and think, “Ooh, I like that. I would have never thought to do that, but let me see if I can go thrift that.” And it’s just been really fun. If anything, I just feel more like myself now than ever before, which is really, really cool. Maureen: I want to stick on that for a second. What does it mean to feel like yourself? Maybe an example or a moment—you mentioned looking back at videos and noticing that you’re more confident in a particular outfit versus another. What does that confidence look like to you in the video? How can you see it now in a way that maybe you didn’t see in the moment? Cara: Yeah, I think it’s overall body posture—or the way I’m looking at myself in the camera. Because I don’t always film with the back camera, even though you’re “supposed” to. I still use my front camera a lot, so I’m literally looking at a mirror of myself. And I can tell—in certain looks—I’m feeling myself more. Like, you know when you’re feeling yourself and when you’re not. There are certain moments where I’m like, “Oh, I’m really working this.” And I don’t mean that in a cocky way, I mean it in a very reflective, real-time way, like: wow, you’re really feeling yourself. That’s been cool and interesting, because especially as somebody who lives in a larger body, I normally wouldn’t put on a tight shirt and think, “I feel great about myself.” But then when I’m reacting in real time to the footage of myself, I’m like, “No, I’m actually feeling myself. This feels good.” And it kind of makes you think—maybe I’ve been doing this wrong the whole time. Like, it doesn’t matter what size I am. I can wear whatever I want as long as I feel good, it’s comfortable, and it’s what I like. That’s all that matters. Maureen: Yeah. I mean, personally, I’m struggling with that right now, so I’d love to talk about it more—these limiting beliefs about what we can and cannot wear based on what our body looks like. Or even more than that—for me, it’s about what we’re used to seeing or not seeing. And for me personally—and I mean this with no pressure, only gratitude—watching you wear just the best things (and just looking cool, in my subjective perspective) has been encouraging. And in your subjective perspective, I can feel when you’re feeling yourself. It’s been really beautiful to see your work and what you’re wearing. I feel very encouraged, because there are some things I’ve told myself not to wear. And I’m actively looking for examples that tell me otherwise, and then trying to experience that myself. Maureen: I wanted to go back to what you were saying about maybe in the past you wouldn’t have wanted to wear a particular type of tight t-shirt or something like that. Can you walk me through—if you can think of it—the experience of getting comfortable with that? Like, let’s say you just wore it one time. Did you immediately feel comfortable, or was it something you had to try over and over again? What was that like? Cara: Yeah, it’s definitely not immediate. I would say that, just like you mentioned, seeing other people be so okay with styling pieces they might not necessarily be “told” to pick—that helps. Like, you see another size 16 wearing a little baby tee and you think, “Why can’t I do that?” So you try it, and at first you’re like, “Maybe this isn’t right.” Then you do it again, and you’re like, “No, I think it could be good.” Then you find your perfect baby tee and you’re like, “Oh no, this is me.” So it’s not quick or immediate. Even now, if I wake up and put on a baby tee, it just might not be a baby tee kind of day. And that’s okay too. You just have to be kinder to yourself and realize that’s part of growing into being comfortable with your body. I’m 33, turning 34 this month, and it’s still a battle I think I’ll face the rest of my life. But I’m at a point where I’m very happy with my body no matter what I’m wearing, because I know I’m healthy, and I know this is the size I’m supposed to be. Instead of trying to negate that, I’ve learned to be nicer to myself and say, “Okay, this is what I look like. And that’s great.” I’ve gotten so many messages since the big Chloë Sevigny and Zoë Kravitz recreations from girls saying, “Oh my gosh, thank you for doing this. It’s so good to see these clothes on a larger body. You’ve inspired me.” Hearing that is such a reminder that I’m not alone—I’ve never been alone. So many people are going through the same thing. Let’s band together, gas each other up, and just not care—as long as you feel good and comfortable, that’s really what matters. Of course, there will always be people who say, “You shouldn’t be wearing that top. You shouldn’t be wearing that baby tee.” And that’s fine. They don’t have to agree with the fact that it looks great on me—I know it does. So I guess the long-winded answer is: just wear it. Even if it feels wrong at first, believe that it’s right, and eventually, you’ll get there. Maureen: Part of the reason I wanted to talk through this with you is I recently wrote about barriers to dressing intuitively. The idea is that your body can tell you what does and doesn’t feel comfortable or right for you. I wanted to shed light on the fact that sometimes your body can tell you something doesn’t feel safe just because it’s new. That doesn’t necessarily mean it’s not something you want—or could want—in the future. And that’s something I’m working on right now: how to know the line between “my body tells me not to do this because I’m not used to it” versus “this really isn’t something I want.” I may need to work on that for a while. But hearing you talk about it makes me feel less alone. Cara: Not at all. There’ve been so many moments like that in my life where I’ve questioned and then questioned again. And sometimes, those are pieces I just shouldn’t be wearing. Like, if I’m fussing with something too much, I don’t want to wear it. I don’t want it on my body. That happens. But if the hesitation comes from society saying I shouldn’t wear something, versus what I actually want to wear—that just takes testing the waters. Maureen: Yeah, yeah. Are there any other examples you can think of, where you’ve learned something actually isn’t a good fit for you? Even if you’d love to wear it, it just doesn’t really work for you? Cara: Yeah, absolutely. I would love nothing more than to be able to wear like a slinky little backless dress and like have to wear no bra or no tape or no like plastic things on my chest to get through that. That’s something I really struggle with. I see so many, even curvy girls, who are wearing, like, backless dresses and looking so unbelievably good. I just can’t do that because I have a larger chest. I need the proper support, and to be able to achieve that look and have the proper support, I end up, like, hurting myself or, like, ripping the skin off my chest, you know? So I think that’s definitely one of those style moments that’s just not for me. No matter how hard I try, no matter what special products get invented to magically hold the girls where they’re supposed to go. So that’s definitely, yeah, that’s definitely a thing for me is a little backless number. Maureen: Yeah, I get it. I mean, we do have to have those limits where we’re listening to, oh, this really doesn’t feel good. Yeah, it doesn’t feel good to have tape on my chest, unfortunately. That makes sense to me. Going back to, you know, you were saying that you can tell when you’re feeling yourself in your outfit. And that’s totally coming across. Like, you just seem to be having so much fun getting dressed. How are you feeling about getting dressed? Like, is it fun? Is it just something that you’re enjoying? Like, what’s your current relationship to your closet or clothing in general? Cara: Yeah, no, I’m definitely having fun getting dressed. I love waking up every, it’s like every day is a new opportunity to just like be whoever I want to be. I’m not one of those people who plans out their outfits for the whole week. I actually envy those people because that would make my life so much easier. I think that’s so cool when people can do that. I just can’t do that because I have to wake up, like you’re saying, and really dress intuitively, like see what I want to feel. Oh, I don’t want that to touch my skin or, oh, yeah, okay, I’m okay with something tight today. So I love waking up every morning and like picking an outfit. And sometimes what I’ll do is just scroll Pinterest when I’m drinking my coffee in the morning and be like, oh, I’m going to try that layer or like, oh, I really like this color combo. So it’s like a fun kind of creative game for me at this point. Um, and I want to just keep doing it. I just like, I love getting dressed even, even on the days when I’m just like going to the flea market at seven o’clock in the morning, I’m still like putting some thought into my clothes. And that’s really fun because before, I mean, I would, I think I go through lulls as well. And I think content creation has helped me stay out of the lull because there’s almost like a, not have to, but an expectation of getting dressed. And I kind of love that because it like has forced me. Whereas before I might just throw on like an oversized t-shirt and a pair of cutoffs. Like that’s still cool. And that still might be my outfit of choice, but like, I’m going to think about it a little bit more. So yeah, I’m having a great time getting dressed in the morning. I think everybody should have a great time getting dressed in the morning. Maureen: I hope that too. I don’t know that that’s the case, but I would love for more people to experience that. What would you say is the difference between, you know, like you mentioned, sometimes you want to wear an oversized t-shirt and cutoffs, and that’s a choice. What’s the difference between making that choice versus just like maybe the alternative, like just putting it on out of ease or something like that, what is the difference in either the mindset or the experience of wearing the clothes in either of those situations where you may be wearing the same outfit, but the experience of choosing to wear it is different? Cara: I think there’s a couple different factors. I mean, for me, probably the number one difference between bad outfit two different ways is the way I’m feeling about myself or my mood or, you know, if it’s a good day or a bad day, because we all have those. So, you know, I think that could be considered a comfort outfit in some situations. And I would just then pair it with like some burks and not do my hair, you know. But if it’s a good day, maybe I put that on with some cowboy boots and a crocheted little handkerchief, you know. So like I think it just depends on my mood, how I’m feeling about myself, how I’m feeling about my body because you know as women we’re on a cycle so like our hormones are designed to kind of make us feel a certain way and sometimes you just don’t, you just can’t do it, you just can’t get excited about getting dressed. But in those situations I always say you should have a comfort outfit or a comfort look and that has also been something that’s extremely helpful to me as somebody who just wakes up and gets dressed every morning and doesn’t plan out my outfits because I know like okay if I put that on I’m going to feel good regardless of what I feel and my mood is today I’m going to feel good in that outfit. So love that. It’s good to have that comfort blanket outfit. You need it. Everybody needs it. Everybody needs at least, and if it’s not an outfit, it’s comfort pieces. Like, oh, I know that skirt is really comfortable. It’s soft on my skin. It looks good on me no matter if it’s a good day or bad day. And it goes with every top I have. You know, like pieces like that are so important. So I recommend everybody has a top, a bottom, and a jacket that makes them feel that way or a sweater or something. Maureen: Jackets are hard for me. I never find jackets I like. They always ruin my outfit. Cara: See, I’m the opposite. I’m like, put a jacket on, it makes it. I’m like, this is my little cocoon of happiness. Maureen: That’s so interesting. Everybody’s different. I also selfishly love that you talked about accessories changing the outfit because I feel like accessories are everything. The best things that I have in my closet are my accessories. Cara: The one thing that I would honestly probably — like, I have a hard time spending a lot of money, like paying full price for an item. I would 100% pay full price for an accessory — piece of jewelry, a scarf, whatever. Because I just think no matter what, you can throw it on and it makes or breaks an outfit. I could not agree more. And this is also, I wanted to say, you rock cowboy boots in particular. But this is a perfect segue into how you decide what to buy and where. I know that you thrift a lot. It sounds like accessories get that full-price spot, but how else do you decide what comes home with you or what you leave at the thrift store? Cara: This has evolved throughout my life. I’m in my thirties now, but in my twenties, it was like: you see it, you love it, you buy it. I was buying way too much, spending way too much money, was not saving when I should have been in a time where I was in the space in my life where I could save. And that taught me a lesson. Now in my 30s, where I have a lot more bills and things to pay for, I can’t do that anymore. So I have this desire to want everything, but I really have to edit and be more selective with what I’m buying because I’m on a budget

The second episode of season two is here! Enjoy this episode with Harriet Hadfield . Episode Transcript This transcript has been edited for clarity. Welcome You’re listening to Intuitive Style , where we believe that everyone has style. I’m Maureen McLennon Welton . In conversation with fantastic guests, we explore how to tap into our style intuition so that we can dress authentically and live fully. Today’s guest is Harriet Hadfield , the writer of Harry Styles— that name !—on Substack. As an early One Direction fan, you know what I mean. You know her from her nuanced, vulnerable writing about career transitions and mental health challenges, just as much as her playful and creative styling suggestions. Or perhaps you’ve seen her extensive backlog of makeup tutorials or journal making on her YouTube channel, Harry Makes it Up . However you’ve met her, you are sure to have loved her. Harry, welcome to the show. Harriet: My gosh, that intro was like the most lovely thing ever. I’m like, can you just send me that so can put that in like a happy book? Maureen: I will print it out, I’ll hand write a note. You can keep it wherever. Harriet: So lovely. Thank you so much Maureen. Maureen: You wrote it yourself, you did all those things. So you made it easy. Well, I wanted to start off by referencing your recent undercover work, a post that you put up on Substack, where you identified some themes and what folks on the East side of LA are wearing, which anyone that’s been following you for a minute would see that it’s a little bit different from your typical style. There’s lots of color. And, I just thought that was really fun because you reinterpret those looks with your own clothes. So I would just love to hear like, how did you come up with that idea? And just tell me, was it so fun to write? Harriet: It really was like the most fun thing. And I think sometimes to me, my writing, there are some things that I just know I wanna write. And then generally this situation, I’d gone to a coffee shop with my laptop and I got there, my laptop was dead. And I was like, man, there’s no chargers around. And I always carry a notebook with me, as you know, I love my journals. So I was like, okay, I’m just gonna people watch, which is another hobby of mine. And I just started writing what I was seeing, like socks with shoes, canvas totes. It was almost like a shopping list. I just kind of was documenting what I was seeing. And then I said to my husband, he was at the coffee shop with me, I was like, I’m Harriet the Spy. And then I think that whole thing, was like, this is so fun because like you said, I think my style is a little bit different generally to where I live and I don’t in any way say that to sound like it’s better than. Again, I think this is where style can feel really problematic. But coming from London, I think my style has always felt a bit dressier. But I love taking inspiration from anywhere and everywhere. So I also think I’m currently on another no-buy. I love being able to think how can I make my existing wardrobe work harder for me? And also like you said, like intuitive style in my opinion is about trying stuff. It’s about experimenting. So I love pushing myself out my comfort zone in the safety of my own home and knowing like, okay, here’s my barometer to decide what feels comfortable to leave the house in. What bits do I keep? What bits do I maybe go, cool, I tried that, it’s not for me. But for me getting dressed is like playing dress up. It always takes me back to being a kid and just wanting to try things. Maureen: How do you know when it feels right and you’re ready to leave the house in something versus like, I need to tweak this a little bit more or it doesn’t feel right? Harriet: That’s a really good question and part of me wants to say there’s lots of ways to answer that but I also think intuition and self-trust is something we build. So for me it’s both a physical feeling in my body, it’s kind of like a mental knowing of... I think as well for me it’s like a spectrum of like am I uncomfortable because it feels new or is it uncomfortable because...I just would feel more conscious wearing this than not wearing it. And I think if it’s the former, like, oh, this just feels new, then this is why I like doing, like, play dates in my own wardrobe at home, because it gives me time to get used to seeing myself in a new way. It gives me space and time to be like, ooh, there’s something that keeps making me look in the mirror and go, I’m not mad at it. I don’t hate it. And sometimes I think you have to start there before you can get to a place of, oh my god, this and sometimes the my god I love this does happen very instantaneously but for me I think it’s almost it’s it’s learning to develop patience with when I’m trying something new it isn’t always gonna click straight away and there will be some things where try as I might I’m like looks great on everyone else but it’s a no for me like I think it’s that it’s it’s building that self-trust which I would love to say I could tell you exactly how you do that. But I think it’s, I think to start with, it’s maybe wanting to build the self-trust. I think that’s a good place to be. Like, I think I’ve outsourced my tastes when I was younger so much. I look for someone to tell me what style is, what would be right. Again, you know, coming of like the noughties and the, you know, 90s teenager, like I grew up with, everything should be flattering, everything should be done, you know, avoid horizontal stripes. So I’ve had to unlearn a lot as well, but I think that started with wanting to unlearn it. Like there came a point where I was like, I would like to make decisions that feel good for me, even if other people don’t get it. And I think that’s a good place to start is just wanting to kind of like build that trust. Maureen: Can you be my co-host on this podcast because... Harriet: You Anytime. Maureen: I mean, everything you said…there’s no bows that we can tie. There’s a reason that this is an 18 plus episode and growing podcast because I don’t think that there’s a one answer on how to build this self trust, but it’s like you said, it’s a choice that we’re making and, something that we have to put time and attention into doing. yeah. Harriet: Yeah. No. And I think make it fun, whatever fun looks like for you. Like for me, I’m still a big kid at heart. Like I wanna put 90s boy band music on while I have a wardrobe play date and you know, have a sing and a dance in my closet. And I’m always like, how can I make this feel like play versus something I have to get right? Maureen: Are there any outfits that you tried recently or as a result of that post that, was there like anything that stands out that you’re like, I did this new thing and it felt really good. What was that like? Harriet: I think the socks and shoes I see come round again and again. I think it’s one of those things that in fashion, it’s been used in so many different decades. I see people, like I I live on the East side in LA. I see it a lot on the East side and I always appreciate it on other people. I’ve just always been like, especially trainers and socks, loafers and socks. And I remember realizing at one point, I don’t actually own a pair of white socks. I only own black socks for the winter with my boots. And I remember wearing a pair of black socks over leggings with like a really oversized blazer and then like a white strappy sandal and I loved the contrast of that. I remember thinking like, oh this feels like me. Again, that spectrum I talked about, it was a very instantaneous yes. And so because of that, I was like, okay, well what if it’s not a loafer in a sock for me? What if it’s just a different shoe in a sock? So again, I kind of like the same Harriet the Spy thing. I’m very investigative. Like, I don’t even think that’s a word. But like, I’m always trying to be like, what is the bit I do like? Like, warmer, warmer. And I remember I had this pair of shoes that were actually from the Alison Bornstein, Jack Irwin collection when she did that launch. And I’ve got to be honest, I don’t always wear them. And they’re suede and I live in LA, so I have no excuse. But I was just like, I need to wear these more. Again, there’s things in my wardrobe where I’m like, I love this item. If I’m not wearing it, is it because I need to find new ways to wear it that excite me? Is it just that I haven’t put it enough into heavy rotation? And like I said, I didn’t have any white socks, but Dave had some sports socks with like a pink and a brown rim around the top. And I was like, well, if I fold them and scrunch them, I can kind of make it look like a white sock. And it was like a thick sports socks. I was like, okay, this is really not comfortable, but it’s kind like I have this concept called like the bridge philosophy where it’s like where can you try something that is like point A of the spectrum of starring stuff and being like, okay, that’s my beginning point. And from doing that, although it was like uncomfy because the socks were too thick, I was like, I kind of like this. And again, for me, I have to always add something dressy into the mix. I feel like when there’s like a more formal looking bag or something that feels quite, I’m trying to what the word is. Like for me, I love grandma and granddad. That’s always like, feel like when people say like, what’s your style? I’m like, I don’t really have words, but I’m like, what a granddad would wear, a grandma would wear, or a librarian, or a geography teacher, like any of those probably would like cross my path some way. Again, yeah, and I just think like trying on those shoes with the socks, I was like, maybe I might get round to buying socks. So I think it’s, whether it’s going to be something that becomes fully into part of my everyday dress, who knows? But again, I like that experimenting, I like the play of like, there’s something in this that I’m like, ⁓ that’s cute, I like that. Like it brought me joy seeing that outfit come together and being like, I know what it is within the outfit that makes it feel like me. Maureen: One of the questions that I am always like, what’s the word, struggling with, and it sounds like you have a pretty good grasp on this is like balancing staying open to trying new things and changing your mind while also respecting the preferences that you’ve observed over time. Can you think of any ways to explain the right balance between those two? Like, is it just? That’s self-trust or is there more to it? Harriet: I mean, the thing that’s given me the most freedom, I think, not just in my wardrobe, but in life in general, is I’m allowed to change my mind. And I’m actually writing a piece about this at the minute for Substack because I think so many people can relate to that feeling of once I quote unquote commit to this is my style, this is an objective I’m gonna use to describe it, this is how I understand it now, I just think we’re always evolving and I think there’s things that ground us. But I think letting go of the fear of like, well now I’ve decided I know my personal style, therefore I must stay here. I think there’s a fluidity that’s needed for it to stay fun and for it to not get into the territory of like, good, bad, right, wrong. That’s kind of like, for me personally, whenever I’m like, yeah, you’re allowed to change your mind, I’m like, that’s so freeing. Like there’s so much relief in that. So I don’t know if I’ve answered the question, but I think that’s kind of like how I approach that nuance. Maureen: I think you answered the question perfectly. It’s like, our preferences can mean whatever they want to mean. our preferences can be valid in a moment in time and then our preferences can change and also be valid in a different moment in time. And I think it’s just being okay with that. Harriet: I think with this online world we’re all in now, I think it’s that fear of things getting used against us. I know as a writer, like, you know whatever you write, it’s in print. Like, it’s in the world. The internet makes it exist and people love to go back to something that was said and kind of pull it up. you know, I’ve been within to some extent the content creation world for the past, like, 12 years. Of course I see things that I wrote or I’ve said like from 10 years ago and I’m like, I don’t believe that anymore. But I’m like, yeah, cause I’m growing. I, and yes, growing, you know, from an emotional lens, but also literally my experience on this earth is now longer. I’ve had more points of view to see. And I think sometimes this is expectation when you let yourself be online of like, I have to have every single nuance covered. I have to have every single point of view. And sometimes I think the asterisks can get a little bit, I think it was, you know, I was chatting about this with a writer from recently and I was like, I think the audience just want to feel something. I think they just want to connect and I’m not for everybody. Like I think I’ve, for the most part, day to day, I feel more peace than ever that I’m really not for everyone. But that’s how it stays fun for me. You know, rather than trying to be like, and you don’t have to dress up and it’s okay if you want to dress up. Like sometimes you, there’s that kind of push and pull, but style is personal. Like it can’t not be personal if you’re approaching it from a lens of experimentation play. And I think letting go of the idea that we arrive, do you know what I mean? Like letting go of this idea of like, and now my style is complete and it will never, it’s never going to change again. Maureen: You know, it’s so crazy because there’s so many things that I like know in my brain, but then like when it’s like me, it’s not like it doesn’t feel true. Like I have this idea in my head, like I’m in the midst of a style transition right now where I’m like, Ooh, I feel like there will be another side of this and I I’m not there yet. And I’m trying to remind myself like maybe there isn’t another side. Like maybe, maybe I’m not like on a bridge crossing a river. Maybe I’m just like on a meandering path. Harriet: Yeah, no, I mean, even recently, like, I, again, another place I’m writing about, like, the joy of patina, like, I think I’ve noticed myself being, I’ve always loved secondhand, it’s kind of what I grew up with, but also now it’s kind of coming full circle where I’m like, I’ve done the babying items I’ve spent a lot of money on, a lot of which I’ve sold, and recently I started just wildly pinning Victorian writing desks. It, like, was one of these things where I was just like, I don’t know why, but I’m obsessed with the thought of having a place to do my journals where there’s no computer, where there’s nothing digital, where I can wear my nightgowns and pretend I’m Emily Bronte. I was like, no, it’s a whole vibe. But from the place, it’s fun. Like I know lace is trending right now. And again, for me, it all comes around full circle all the time. But I found this amazing little table in a thrift store for like, I think it ended up being like 40 bucks. And then the next day, found a chair that matches it in like a junkyard for like 20 bucks and I was just like did I manifest this? Is this part of my style evolving? And I think for me again it’s letting go of it needing to make sense because I think that thing of like the consistency that people are craving and I get it I get we want to feel like we can wear our clothes we can use them we want to avoid feeling discombobulated on like a personal level but I think there is space for that nuance and there is space for that, don’t know why I like it, but I do. And okay, I’m not gonna dress head to toe like I’m in a Victorian novel every single day, but there are things, it’s like that cherry picking, there’s things where I’m like, I like that. And it probably doesn’t make sense, but it makes sense to me. again, it just, whether you wanna say it sparks joy, whether you wanna say it’s, know, even like when I look at... I mentioned the Victorian table from the lens of I live in LA, everything here is very mid-century modern, the house we live in, there’s a lot of things that quote unquote wouldn’t suit the house we live in. But when I saw this Victorian desk, I’m like, I don’t care, I just need to own it, like I love it. And it’s just, I think leaning into where I’m at in my, whether you’d say style and period, like all the things that I use to explore creativity and express myself. I’m coming back to this place of like, I remember my mum having one like that when we were kids. Or there’s kind of like that pull to memory, there’s a pull to I’ve moved away from so many things I grew up with. And now I’m like, I can like really appreciate the beauty from a new lens and that wanting to be around certain things. Because I think with clothing as well, kind of like to come back to the East Side pose she was saying about, I just enjoy seeing people like, be in clothes . I think there’s something so fascinating about the way clothing makes people change how they walk, it changes you know the confidence they might have when they enter a room. I think it’s so psychological and I find that part of clothing fascinating like deep like when someone says like I can’t wear this is it’s too much I’m like Tell me more. Like, I’m just like, wanna, I wanna know all about like, where did that come from? Like, I, I, you know, when someone’s like, okay, I’ve changed now, I feel better. Like, I’m like, cool, what make, like, I’m so fascinated. Like, what makes us feel better? Yeah. Maureen: You and me both, Harry. This is why I sit here with these headphones on, talking to people every week. I’m like, what are you wearing and why? I just wanna know. It’s so true. It’s just the most beautiful way of communicating and understanding from other people who you are and why, or how do you view yourself? What do you feel about yourself? Not that it means, like, not that there’s like, oh, if you dress like this, it means this thing, but it allows you to have a conversation or, you whatever. It’s about presentation, like, who we are inside on the outside. I mean, it’s the best. Harriet: Yeah, and it’s this fun thing you get to play with. I always think we can learn so much from kids when I’m watching my nieces get dressed with a frozen dress mixed with cowboy boots. My sister was like, no, I literally can’t buy clothes for them anymore. And she’s five. My sister’s like, no, she has an opinion. And I kind of watch her get dressed and I’m like, she’s just having so much fun. There’s no right or wrong. And again, I’ll, you know, going to see her grandma, she’s like, I’m put my frozen boots on. She’s already figured out like, I’m going somewhere. This is like a place to share what I enjoy wearing with other people. And I just think it blows my mind how like, you know, it’s maybe so much younger than we think that we have this awareness of like how we present ourselves. And that exploring, I guess, creativity, you know, and self-expression through what we were. Maureen: Do you remember what you wore as little kid? Harriet: I do because I feel like as a kid I was very very sporty so I was obsessed with sport as a kid. I played a lot of tennis, so as a really small girl my mum did do the kind of like matching clothes with me and my sister, which I look back and I’m like that’s kind of cute now. But I remember hating as a kid—everything was color coordinated. It was like if she had a Mickey Mouse t-shirt, I had Minnie Mouse. Her sleeves were one color, my sleeves were another, and it was like matching sets, but our own colors. And I remember a lot of that, which makes sense, because it’s probably just easier for my mom to be like, cool, get two of those. Like, you know, again, it’s not that deep. Sometimes it is just not. And whenever I was in skirts or dresses, I was l

Intuitive Style podcast is back and better than ever! I took a break over the summer to rest, rejuvenate, and overhaul my recording method from top-to-bottom! We’re talking: new backdrop, haircut, logo, audio-set-up and even a new theme song created specifically for the show! While working a full-time job and continuing to write this newsletter. So when I say I took a break, I am speaking aspirationally. That said, we have an exciting series ahead with episodes featuring Substack gems Harriet Hadfield , and OFELIA (and way more!) plus a few new faces you’ll be sure to love. Despite my best attempts, this podcast continues to be 100% reader supported. If you enjoy what we’re doing here, please consider sharing with someone you think would love the show so we can get the word out! Onto the show… Episode Transcript This transcript has been edited for clarity. Welcome Welcome back to Season 2 of the Intuitive Style Podcast! I'm Maureen McLennon Welton . I can't wait for you to see these episodes. I think it's going to be a fabulous season, kicking off with our guest today, Asta / Aastha . This is a great conversation. I think you're really going to enjoy getting to know her a little bit better. And this podcast is entirely community supported. So please consider liking, sharing, subscribing, and really just getting the word out there so that more people can find this show. And without further ado, let's get into the episode! Maureen: You're listening to Intuitive Style , where we believe that everyone has style. I'm Maureen Welton. In conversation with fantastic guests, we explore how to tap into our style intuition so that we can dress authentically and live fully. Today's guest is Aastha, the author behind the fabulous Substack Fit Happens —which is of course a fabulous name. Aastha loves wearing the brand Tibi, styling clothes in different ways, sharing about color mixing and silhouette, and chatting about weird shoes. Aastha, welcome to the show. Aastha: Thank you, thank you, and thank you for the introduction. Maureen: I feel that your newsletter, Fit Happens , is a good foil for mine in the way that you seem to have really honed the skill of dressing intuitively and do it with relative ease. Can you share a little bit about what dressing intuitively means to you and how you foster that sensibility? Aastha: Yes, yes, for sure. But before I jump into the answer, I do want to say just a few words to embarrass you a little bit, Maureen, because I'm just such a big fan of everything that you're doing. And I really appreciate your vulnerability in how you put yourself out there. I've been a big fan of your podcast too, and I really appreciate how welcoming you make the space for everyone and hold space for everyone. That’s why I was very excited to do this. So I wanted to officially do that after you start the recording—so you cannot take it out. So don’t take this out. Now, let me answer the question. So, it’s something that… just the idea of living intuitively has been very important to me for, I don’t know, like 15, 20 years at this point. And I don’t even remember what sparked that. But in terms of what it means to dress, it’s about—there is so much out there that tells you what is right, what is wrong. And there is no objective truth about how you dress, but also about how you live. Like, the kind of decisions you make. For example, I am here in Los Angeles and my family is in India, which means I’m probably not going to see my parents that many times in my lifetime. But who’s to say whether that’s right or wrong? That’s just a very big example to begin with. But truly, there are so many decisions you need to make for your own life where there is no objective way to say what is right or what is wrong. And to actually be living a life where you don’t have regrets, it’s so important that you tap into your intuition and what feels right in that moment. And intuitive style and intuitive dressing to me is just a capsule form of that exact same idea—that you wear what feels right in that moment. And as long as it feels right, you’re going to have a good day and you’re not going to worry too much about, “is this right or is this wrong?” Even if I look back at my style five years ago, ten years ago, fifteen years ago—I don’t have any regrets, because I know it felt right in that moment. Who cares if it doesn’t feel right now? If I had fun in that moment, that’s enough. It’s kind of like: if you have fun in the present, the past and the future take care of themselves. Maureen: I was going to ask about the regret of it all—you already answered. So what I heard from that is basically the only way to prevent future regret, which is this scary intangible thing we can’t predict, is by trusting that we’re making the best choices in the moment. And if we change our minds later, that doesn’t mean anything about what we did in the past. Aastha: No, no, it doesn’t. And also, I think when you live long enough, you realize you will change your mind. That is normal, right? So if that’s going to happen anyway, why worry too much about it? When people ask me for career advice, I usually say, just do what feels good to you in the moment. Because if you have fun every day, you will also be having fun every day in the future, right? So the future takes care of itself if you just focus on the present, basically. Maureen: I did a meditation before this, so it's really ringing true for me. No, I love this—such a good way to explain dressing intuitively. I know we'll talk about it more throughout the call. Switching gears slightly, I love to talk about the Tibi of it all. I know that Tibi, the brand—you’re not affiliated with them, you don’t use affiliate links—but you mostly or very often wear their clothing. And I just think it's so interesting, to me and to other people, to see someone really living authentically with a particular brand. That's also, like, sometimes divisive, as I think you’ve shared on your social media and on Substack. So I’d just like to hear a little bit more about the origin—how you found Tibi and what it is about that brand that resonates with you so much? Aastha: Yeah, it's such a great question. It is a big part of my style life for sure, and my closet, right? To the point where, because I'm a big Indyx user too—and you know how you can choose whether you want to see the brand names or the item names—the default is brand name. And I was like, that is useless to me because all I’ll see is Tibi, Tibi, Tibi. That does nothing for me. So I changed it to item name. But the thing about me is that I really, really dislike searching for things, shopping, and trying on different things—figuring out what's going to work and what's not. I just feel so frustrated when I have to spend time doing that. I think it's such a waste of time and there are so many other things that I’d rather be doing. In the past, I think pretty early on, I learned about my body type and what works for me. And the thing about most brands—unless they're very expensive brands, like Margiela, Comme des Garçons, that level—is that they’re not very consistent in the lines and the clothing that they make. So, for example, with Anthropologie or J.Crew, those kinds of brands—they just make anything and everything. When I would wear some of those brands (and I’m a big Anthropologie fan, just as an example), it was like: I’d have to look and not understand exactly what they’re doing this season. It would be all over the place. Some stuff worked, some stuff didn’t. Just very annoying. I am a fan of Issey Miyake. That said, their lines are consistent, but those lines don’t look great on me. There are very few pieces that actually work for me. Anyway, long story long—I was in New York, and I wanted to go to the Issey Miyake store because I was willing to spend time finding the one thing that might work for me. But the store was very busy—it’s a small store in Soho—and I didn’t want to deal with that. So I was like, let me just walk around and see what else is out here. Tibi was right around the corner. I didn’t know anything about the brand because it’s not that well known. I’m also not very engaged in style content on social media—at least before Substack—so I didn’t know anything about them. I walked in, and there was a stylist there, Grace, who was super nice. She talked about the brand, I was interested in some of the clothes, she helped me try them on—and I instantly fell in love. Literally 90% of the stuff looked good on me and the lines worked well for me. I ended up buying three things, walked out still not knowing about the style classes or anything like that. Then I did a few email exchanges with Grace afterward to figure out shoe sizing—because their sizing is all over the place. That’s when she told me about the style class, I started watching it, and the rest is history. But truly, I think what drew me to them is that they are very consistent in the kind of clothes they make. And most of their lines work really well on me. They do make some clothes where the lines don’t work well on me, and I just know that and steer clear of those silhouettes. Maureen: Yeah. And I know from your writing that you have a specific definition of what “lines” mean and what looks good on you. I just wanted to take an opportunity to clarify—what does looking good mean for you personally? Aastha: It's such a great question. I think for me, it's a combination of what aesthetically looks good. I think that is important, because sometimes we gaslight ourselves or others into thinking, “Oh, it doesn't matter. You know, it's fine. It's not about flattering.” And it is not about flattering. Maureen: I agree. Aastha: So that whole idea of the lines working for me—one is, is it giving me aesthetically what I want? And two, is it expressing what I want to express? For example, my body type—and this is a caveat because it might come up throughout our chat—I'm very neutral in how I talk about my body. Hopefully this is not triggering for anyone, but my body type is: I have broad shoulders, very narrow hips, my waist-to-hip ratio isn’t much. The way I like to look is basically broad shoulders and then a vertical line from there. So I don't like cinching my waist. Because of the way my body is, my shoulders are broader than the rest of my body. As long as something has broad shoulders and falls straight down, that column look, I really like. Also, one of my style words is “commanding,” and that look is commanding. So it's a good combination of how I want to look plus the lines that I think look good on me. That’s how I typically think about clothes and whether they give me the lines I want. Maureen: Let's talk about your style words. I loved your post about that and how you moved from style words that describe clothing to style words that describe how you want to feel in your outfit. I'd love to hear you talk about your style words in more detail and how you got to them. Aastha: Yeah, I was wondering where this came from. From the very beginning, when I started thinking about style words, for me, it was in the graphic design context. We were taught as an exercise that before you design a poster—you come up with three adjectives. They were not called style words, just three adjectives to describe what you’re going for. Our professor said not to use overly visual words because, he said, that's not exciting. If one of your words is “linear,” I already know your poster is going to have lines. That's a wastage of words. Even before that, I think this idea of labels is very Western. Minimalist, maximalist, boho, retro—that’s not how we thought about design in India. Growing up, we weren’t boxed into one style; sometimes minimal, sometimes maximal, sometimes inspired by Western dressing, sometimes Indian. So that whole labeling idea didn’t work for me—maybe because I grew up in India. Combine that with what I learned in grad school, and the idea that style words would be like “70s” didn’t work either. What if I don’t want to feel 70s someday? That’s possible. But I liked the idea of using words to describe what I’m trying to communicate and how I want to feel. Words about me as a person, not just how I want to look, because how I look can change. Anchoring in feelings and personality makes the words more stable—they’ll evolve, but not day by day. Even today, I’m wearing a navy dress with a black blazer. Yesterday, I was wearing super colorful clothes. If my words were minimal versus maximal, or neutral versus colorful, it wouldn’t work. That’s why I gravitate toward feeling words. Maureen: Yeah, I mean, for the idea of intuitive style, that post was one I read and thought, “Ooh, I wish I wrote that.” It connected so well with dressing intuitively and paying attention to how we feel in our bodies with what we’re wearing. Choosing style words that communicate feelings is so much more expansive and allows for creativity in what we mean by the words we choose. I’m probably going to write a post on this, but you and I have been chatting offline about what my style words might be—moving from words like “minimal” or “classic” (how I could describe past clothing) to being in the midst of a style transformation. Sometimes I like to accentuate my waist. My lines will continue to be classic, but I’m moving my words toward “creative,” “free,” and “modern.” What I loved about your post is that it really makes space for evolving and changing our minds. If I were to rewrite my style words right now based on an aesthetic vision in my head, and I tried those things and they didn’t actually work on my body, it could cause a disconnect between our aesthetic preferences and how we feel in our own bodies. So I feel like by choosing these feeling words, the thing that is the most important is how that actually translates to real life and respecting our aesthetic preferences without making our aesthetic preferences the most or the only important factor in what we choose to wear. What do you think about that? Aastha: I really like that. I think it's also this approach, and this connects to what you were saying. It's coming from the inside out versus outside in, right? Because one approach could be looking at Pinterest, collecting all these pins, and saying, “Okay, this is a classic look. One of my words is classic because I like this.” Right. There's nothing wrong with looking at Pinterest. I love Pinterest. I'm a very frequent user. But the problem with that is exactly what you said. You might try on those lines and realize, actually, that doesn't work so well on me. So now what do I do? Do I have to start over? Instead, you just say, “Hey, I am someone who values freedom and I want to feel free.” You might think that translates to clothing like straight lines, no cinching. Or you might say, no, actually for you that just means natural fiber. Or someone else might say that for them it means wearing revealing clothing and being completely free in that because that's how they express it—and all of that is valid. They're still free; how they express it is their choice. No one else needs to look at it and say, “That person is free.” Maureen: Yeah, I just went down a mental rabbit hole about being online and writing about style online, and how we are—and I say this about myself—right? We're choosing to make public something that is at the same time very private and personal. How do you deal with that cognitive dissonance between, “This is for me” versus choosing to share online and making something public? Aastha: Yeah. It's a great question. I think first of all, it is when we're able to do that, right? Because you are opening yourself to critique. Now, for the most part, Substack is like a bubble where most everyone is nice, but I also post things on Instagram where that's not the case. I think it comes down to everyone's reason for doing it. And to me, how it makes sense is—this goes way beyond style—my mom was someone who spent a lot of her life truly enabling other women to feel autonomous and have the agency that she perhaps herself wasn't given. And she actually fought for herself to get that agency. That is how she raised us. The reason for me and the “why” is because I truly write so that I can share. I just want to give women permission, as much as possible, through living my own life the way I want to. Because the truth is, many of us put too many barriers in our own minds sometimes. Some of these barriers are real, but some are not. It's just that we have grown up with shame, boundaries, rules about what we can or cannot do, what we can or cannot say. And I think the more we are upfront with each other in sharing how we think about stuff and not being apologetic about how we live our lives, the more permission it gives to the collective. So yes, it is uncomfortable, but that is my “why” that makes it worth it. If someone can look at me and think, “Oh, she can wear shorts to work, I can do the same,” or whatever their version of that might be, it’s worth it if it’s even one person. That’s my hope—that just setting an example for women is something all of us are doing, including yourself. Maureen: That's really beautiful. And the story about your mom too—it is so important to know our references. It sounds like your mom led by example. When we think about having purpose in our life, I think that's very top of mind for a lot of people. Having a clear passion that you care about and can devote yourself to—what is better than that? I think that's the best thing we can experience on earth. Aastha: Yeah, I completely agree. I think this is connected to the first thing we were talking about—the first topic of living every day and finding happiness in your every day, whether it's your outfit, how you're living your life, or what job you're doing. Because if it's connected to your purpose, any of this, you'll feel it. If it's not, you'll feel the dissonance too. That's why I try to optimize for how it actually feels to me. That's why I like my job. I like where I live, like all of it. It has to be giving me happiness on a day-to-day basis. And not just… of course, you'll have crappy days at your job, but we all know the difference between that and just, “This is not for me.” Maureen: Let's talk about “this is not for me” in clothing. My question that I ask everyone is, I’m getting more interested in the why behind why people decide what to wear rather than what they’re actually wearing. Understanding that you have a go-to roster, particularly Tibi, maybe within a particular collection or based on what you already have—how do you decide what to buy and wear? And how do you decide what not to buy and wear? Aastha: I have a very good idea of stuff that just won’t work on me. But I still keep trying some of it, knowing it's not going to work on me. But it’s more to verify and train my mental model. Like there’s a dress they did this season—I saw it, and one of my friends who is also into Tibi was like, “This is going to look so bad on me.” She agreed. A day later, I put it in my consignment box to verify. She goes, “Me too.” The minute I put it on, I was like, yes, I was right. But now I know, because I get consignment boxes from Tibi, so I can try it on and send it back. It comes down to some things I just know. Aastha: I’ll tell you my filter, because some of it applies to Tibi, but some is more global. I’m very particular about colors. I wear any color, all colors, but it has to be a nuanced color. That’s what I really like about it. Tibi is excellent at it. Dries is excellent at it. Rick Owens is another brand I like for their colors. They don’t do simple colors. Even their bright red is a nuanced bright red. Stunning colors. If I see something and the color is just not there, I won’t even bother. The second filter is lines. Anything that cinches at the waist, any drop waist, anything where the shoulders feel constricte

This is the LAST episode of Season One of Intuitive Style the podcast, featuring one of my long-time inspirations, Christine Platt . I’ve kept up with Christine’s social media for years, since I first discovered Minimalism in earnest back in 2020. Her approach to intentional-living is unparalleled, leading with introspection, questioning everything, and being open to surprise. She’s also recently joined Substack herself at Lessons on Liberation , give her a follow! I can’t think of a better person to wrap up the first season with. While we’re on break for summer, you can catch up with all of the incredible previous guest episodes here. Enjoy! Episode Transcript This transcript has been edited for clarity. Maureen : You're listening to Intuitive Style , where we believe that everyone has style. I'm Maureen Welton. In conversation with fantastic guests, we explore how to tap into our style intuition so that we can dress authentically and live fully. Today's guest really needs no introduction, but I'm going to give her her flowers anyway. She's a multi-genre author, a trailblazer for representation in the lifestyle and wellness space. And a voice so many of us turn to for wisdom and inspiration. You might already follow her on Instagram or perhaps, you know, her beautiful book, The Afro-Minimalist Guide to Living with Less . I'm honored to welcome her to the show, Christine Platt. Christine : Thank you so much for having me, Maureen. I'm happy to be here. Maureen : Likewise, I'm so excited to get to talk to you today. I'll just jump in with one of the aspects of your work that really resonates with me. Especially reflected by the title of your upcoming book, Less is Liberation , is how you move towards what is good rather than simply away from what's bad. And so you center alignment, possibility, empowerment, rather than focusing on restriction or lack or even comparison, right? And that approach has really stayed with me and makes me feel empowered, loved, deeply capable, all the best things. Can you share how you came to see the world in that way? And how did you learn to find expansion where others might see limitation? Christine : You know, this is the new sort of muscle that I have learned to exercise. It's almost like we're taught to be hard on ourselves. You know what I mean? So for so many years, I was just so hard on myself. And, you know, there's a quote in The Afro-Minimalist Guide that is still a mantra that I live by, which is: I am not a grown woman, I am a growing woman. And I think that that mantra helped me sort of move from this space of like, “You should know better, you should…” you know what I mean? Just being really negative and hard on myself to being in this place of like, wow, you're growing, you're expanding, you're learning something new every day. And the other part of that quote is, And may I always be growing. So I'm not a grown woman, I'm a growing woman, and may I always be growing. And I think that leaves space for us to not be so hard on ourselves and understand we're all students of life. We're all trying to figure it out. And there's just no reason for us to be as hard on ourselves as we are. Like when I look back on my younger years, I'm like, I was so mean to myself. You know what I mean? I was so hard on myself—and why? And again, I think so much of it is learned behavior. So learning to look at myself, reframing a lot of what I've been told as a child, unlearning a lot of what I've been told by society, and really getting into the space of like, you know what? Let me love myself. Let me love myself through all of these life lessons, through these journeys. And it's just been beautiful. I mean, I think what a gift, right? To be able to reflect, sit back with ourselves, learn from— I don’t want to say mistakes—so many of the lessons that we have had throughout our lifetime. And really look at them through a lens of love instead of being so critical and understand that they have really helped shape and make us who we are. Maureen : So I'd love to hear from your perspective—could you share a little more detail on how do you actually change that self-talk in the micro moments? Do you have an approach to catching those negative thoughts? Christine : Yeah. I mean, I think we catch them all the time, right? They're more like limiting beliefs—that's what I speak to them as in Less is Liberation. They’re these limiting beliefs that have become a part of our narrative, that have really started to take over our lives, become rules that we live by. They influence our behaviors and what we think about ourselves. And in those moments, it’s almost like catching yourself, like you said, in real time. When I hear myself being critical, just pausing—the power of pause has been a big part of my practice. And that is pausing when I'm saying something to myself and I'm like, wait, where did that come from? Pausing to self-assess, pausing to be introspective. And then in that moment, reframing. Because it's in that reframing where we get to tell ourselves new stories, where we get to look at past circumstances that may have truly been life-altering and defining for us in one way—and reframe them in another way that becomes more empowering. So for example—excuse me, here in DC the pollen is crazy, so I’m going to apologize now for any coughing—but for example, being very critical of ourselves and saying something like, “Man, I just should have worked harder on that,” even when we know that we gave something our all. Pausing to say, “What—you did work hard. What makes you think that you could have worked harder?” And it starts this drill-down of messaging and conditioning. And it’s just like, “Well, I could have worked harder because I went to bed at nine. I could have probably stayed up until eleven.” And then: “Well, why do you feel like you need to stay up until eleven?” “Well, I was taught…” You know what I mean? It’s a lot of self-talk. And I think that’s a part of “doing the work” that people don’t really talk about—is that it’s really conversations that we have with ourselves. We spend so much time seeking external validation. We spend so much time looking for answers outside of ourselves, when all the while, the answers are right within us. And so doing that introspective work, asking myself “why?”—repeatedly drilling down—is where I found out like, man, I really am a people pleaser. I didn’t realize that I was a people pleaser, right? Because I’d reframed it in other ways: “I’m just helpful,” “I’m just kind,” “I’m just sharing,” right? And then really sitting with myself one day and being like, no, this is people-pleasing behavior. Why? Where did this come from? That work—that reframing—it almost has to happen either in real time or through being introspective. So if you can’t catch it in real time, make time every day to be introspective. But what most of us do—and I’m not pointing fingers, because I feel like the way our lives are, the way society is set up, we live in this capitalist world, we’ve been taught to consume and work—most of us don’t make time for that introspection. We don’t make time to self-assess. But in those little moments of self-assessment is where that reframing happens. It’s where you get to reclaim your narrative, reclaim yourself, and really start to do things differently. And I like to say, we can replace our limiting beliefs with liberating beliefs. So we can say—man, it’s funny, I’ve worked through so many I can’t even think of one! But I’ll try. Like one was: “I have to work hard,” or “I have to get it done or no one else is going to do it.” Replacing that with a liberating belief: “I am not the only one who is capable of doing it. Other people are also able to do it. And me giving them time and space to do that is also enlightening and helpful for their journey.” Just replacing it in real time with something that is liberating, as opposed to berating ourselves all the time. So if I can think of a practice or a “how to,” it is just: make time every day to think about, “Where did this thought come from?” We know the thoughts that aren’t serving us. Then question it—just do a little inquiry. Maureen : Yeah. Christine: Don't know. Have you ever heard of the book... oh my goodness. I can, I can see it—it's Michael Singer and... Maureen: Yeah. Christine: It is... Maureen: Is... Christine: You... Maureen: This... Christine: Know... Maureen: The... Christine: Like... Maureen: Untethered Soul? Christine: I'm talking... Maureen: I'm... Christine: Yes. Maureen: Obsessed with that book. Christine: Oh my God. It's so good. So, you know what I'm about to say, which is that inner roommate, man. It's our inner roommate. And when he talks about—I don't know if you've listened to the audiobook—but the audiobook is so funny because... Maureen: I'll check it out. Christine: Yeah, like you really—I have the physical copy and the audiobook too—but the audiobook is so funny because you really get to hear how our inner roommate is like so unhinged, right? Maureen: Yes. Christine: So it's like, we have that thought like, "Man, I should have worked harder"—that inner roommate. And for those who haven't read The Untethered Soul , first of all, you should. And then secondly, what we're talking about is like our psyche, that part of ourselves that narrates our life around us and what's happening. But we become, I don't know, like beholden to that voice. And we think it is a part of us. Right? And so if we have that thought—"Man, I should have worked harder"—our inner roommate is like, "Yeah, you should have. You know who I bet was working harder? So-and-so. And you know what? I bet so-and-so is going to get that promotion at night," right? So I've also learned to silence my inner roommate and distinguish between what I'm thinking and feeling and what my psyche is just narrating based on my experiences and life around me. It's not me. And I think that book has been so crucial in helping me learn how to reframe and reclaim my narrative and distinguish between what I am thinking and feeling and what my inner roommate is narrating. Maureen: I mean, this is just so beautiful to me because I’ve always connected with your work and I didn’t know why. Like, you know what I mean? I can say all the reasons why, but there’s also just a feeling of like—there’s something about the way that you approach the world that is exactly how I’m trying to approach the world. I've never seen you explicitly reference that book before, but that book is also for me one of the biggest pillars in my life that I return to. My copy—I specifically bought a physical copy so that I could highlight and reread and reread and reread because it’s basically how to practice meditation without having to, you know, dedicate—like sit on the floor with your legs crossed. Christine: Yeah. Maureen: The whole practice of meditation is so that we can be mindful in any moment throughout our day. And what I love about his book is that there’s no meditation. Everything is meditation and nothing is meditation because it's simply being aware all the time. And just that self-acceptance. And, you know, transparently, I think it’s a practice—I imagine you agree. And sometimes that practice will be better and we will have our negative self-talk more under control. And there will be other times where that negative self-talk is higher. And, you know, I keep thinking I need to go back and read that book because my self-talk is getting worse. And I’m like, oh—I know it’s happening, and I know that I have this ability to interact with it in a different way. And I haven’t been. I’ve been looking on my phone instead, I’ve been criticizing other people and being really reactive. I can’t believe that you just brought that up. Like, it's so beautiful. Christine: That book has, like, been life-changing for me. That and The Pathway of Surrender . I can’t think of the author—I think it’s Dr. Hawkins. Really helping me understand. Because I mean, for me, I didn’t—I wasn’t aware of my inner roommate. I feel like now I should do a post about it because I don’t think a lot of people are aware of that inner voice. And once I learned, number one, that I can’t really make it shut up—it’s always... When he’s like, you know, it’s like in chapter one or chapter two, and he’s like, “You spend a little time with your inner roommate and you realize really quickly you’re locked in there with a maniac,” I remember just bursting out laughing because I was like, my inner roommate is so unhinged. But because I didn’t realize it was my inner roommate, I thought it was me. I would listen to it, right? So if it’s like, “Oh my God, you’re so stupid. I can’t believe you just did that,” I would be like, “I am so stupid. Why did I do that?” Right? Whereas now I recognize that and I talk back. You know what I mean? Like, I’m like, “I’m not actually stupid. I actually knew what I was doing, and that was a wise decision.” I had to learn to really challenge that inner roommate. And anyone that has—I love talking to other people that have read that book. I said, you can’t unsee it. You know what I mean? Like you can’t unsee it. And so you start to realize all the ways your psyche, your inner roommate—which is just there much like fear, right? Like these are things that are never going to go away because biologically they have been designed to protect us. And so understanding how to manage that and navigate that and let it work in concert with my life rather than dictate my life or determine my life—getting a handle on managing that inner roommate. Maureen: Yeah. Christine: Learning how to reframe is so important. Another book is Big Magic by Elizabeth Gilbert. That’s another book where I love the audiobook and listen to it every year. It’s like having a life coach. And one of the things that she talks about in that book is fear, right? And this idea that, you know, we’ve been taught like, stop being afraid—and it’s like, we can’t. Because fear is like a biological trigger designed to protect us. So how do we manage that fear? We say to ourselves, like she says in the book, “Listen, we’re about to go on a ride together and you’re going to have to come along, fear, because I can’t get rid of you. But what you’re going to do is, you’re going to sit in that passenger seat and don’t touch anything. Don’t say anything.” Right? Like, you are just here along for the ride, but I’m steering the car. And so I think all of these things that we talk about—like managing our lives and navigating our lives—really boils down to learning how to manage and navigate ourselves. And I think for so many years, I kept looking for solutions outside of myself. Maureen: Yep. Christine: So I think that’s why I write the way I do. It’s why I share the things that I do because I want people to know like, yes, you are the problem, but you are also the solution. Maureen: Yes. Christine: Which is very beautiful, you know. And so I think a lot of what we’re doing in this space—a lot of the work that you’re doing—it is Maureen: I think it would be nice to try to share like a couple examples of like a decision that we would make differently today with this mindset of self-compassion or this mindset of awareness. So, like, one that comes to my mind is that I lived for a very long time in a place that I did not enjoy living in. It was a place that every single day I felt out of alignment. I felt that I was compromising on every aspect of my life by choosing to live in a place that was affordable but did not make me feel joyful. And so when I went through the process of self-acceptance and self-compassion towards I don't have to choose to live in this less expensive place at the risk or at the cost of hating my life, I actually can have the choice to go live in the place that I want to live and I will make affordances for my life like moving in with my family in order to live in that more expensive place. So that's an example from my life. Are there any examples that you can think of, of how this mindset truly changed the course of your life? Christine: Yeah, I mean, I love that you use that example because I think there are so often, so many times that we look back on our lives and we're like, Man, what I would have done differently, what I would have changed, what I wish I would have known. And I think what I've been redoing, what I've been doing is like even reframing those decisions that we can't undo, right? And like looking back and saying like, like in your example, I would say like, man, I can't believe I stayed in that place that long. But you know what, I learned a lot of valuable lessons staying in that place, right? Like, I learned I will never compromise and sacrifice my safety, my love for myself, right? Like, it's taking even those decisions that we can't change and reframing it and thinking about what we did learn from those moments. I think for me, I mean, I have like, my whole life is an example. This is an example, right? I mean, I feel like I've spent so much time looking back and learning to forgive myself, right? And I think that forgiveness, that compassion comes from a place of forgiveness, right? And saying like, man, I forgive myself for making that choice. It wasn't the best choice for me at the time, you know? But I survived. I learned a lot. I'm grateful, right? What am I going to take with that and take from that experience and move forward, right? And I think what I used to do, I definitely was a person who always saw the glass half empty rather than half full, half before in here. So very practical. And I think for many years it really limited my outlook on life. Right. And so it's almost like I had to learn, relearn, unlearn, like the glass is not, the glass is only half empty if I say it's half empty, if I say it's half full, someone right. Like it's almost like we, it's a lot of self-talk and I think it's through those moments of how you feel after you work through that, that that is like the biggest sort of selling point, right? Like I can, we can sit here. We're glowing. We're happy. We do this work all the time. Not that it's always easy, but this has become a part of our practice, right, is to really hone in on our mindset and think about, okay, what am I thinking? What am I doing? How am I going to move forward? But the biggest selling point for someone that hasn't done that is to say, just try it. Christine: Right? Take a moment in your life that you can't go back and change, right? That may still be defining and guiding your choices today. And reframe that in a way that is empowering, right? So moving from this place of it being a limiting belief to being an empowering and liberating belief. And I think what's so beautiful is that unlike many other species, we have the power to reframe our story and reinvent our lives and ourselves at any moment, right? So anytime I feel myself, and again, Capricorn here, so my default, my default self is to see that glass half empty. When I feel myself going down that road, when my inner roommate is like, yep, girl, it's half empty, like making time to pause, to reassess, to reframe, and practice true self-awareness and practice like truly being intentional about what I'm thinking, who I'm talking to, what I'm pouring into myself, what I'm saying to myself, what I'm saying to other people. I recently took like maybe two weeks away from social media because for that very reason I had to say like I want to be very intentional about how I am showing up on this shared timeline of our lives, right? Like if I don't have something meaningful to say, if I don't have something that's helpful and useful, I'm not sure that I should be adding to the noise. Now that's just me. But I feel very protective and very mindful of the fact that I do have an audience, that I do have people that are listening to what I'm saying. And so being intentional about that is very im

You’re reading the second-to-last episode of Season One of Intuitive Style. While we’re on break for summer, you can catch up with all of the incredible previous guest episodes here. Next week, we be our season finale with mindful living extraordinaire Christine Platt . Stay tuned! I’m delighted to share this week’s episode with much-awaited guest, Jennifer Cook of mom friend ! We discuss everything from how Jennifer’s professional experience in fashion impacts her personal style to what she most enjoys writing for Substack! Enjoy. Episode Transcript This transcript has been edited for clarity. Maureen: You're listening to Intuitive Style , where we believe that everyone has style. I'm Maureen. In conversation with fantastic guests, we explore how to tap into our style intuition so that we can dress authentically and live fully. Today's guest is Jennifer Cook from mom friend . Jennifer is a Brooklynite with a job in fashion. Chic . You know her from her weekly recaps covering everything from what's happening in politics to what the moms are wearing at Space Club. Jennifer, welcome to the show. Jennifer: Thank you so much for having me. It's so nice to meet you. Maureen: Likewise, I've been reading mom friend for a little while. I'm not even a mom and what you're writing is still really interesting from the fashion insider perspective—just like life in Brooklyn. I like catching up with what Mom Friend 's up to. I took a look at your about page and it really struck me. You said, “when something becomes your job and pays your rent, it's easy to become numb to it. This page has helped relight my curiosity and interest around the industry as a whole, and I love being able to write about it and be in it at the same time.” I don't work in fashion even a little bit, so I would just love to hear a little bit more about your day job in fashion and how writing in your free time feels different. Jennifer: Yeah, I have been working in the fashion industry on the business side for about thirteen years now. I started on the retail side when I was like fifteen, so I've always been around retail and fashion. It's just kind of ingrained in my bones and who I am. But that said, when you work in something, it becomes a little monotonous. Or when it becomes your paycheck and your livelihood, it can kind of lose some of the luster. Part of the reason I got into fashion was because I loved it. I loved the clothes. I loved retail. I loved the energy it brought. I loved the people, the artistry, the creativeness of it. Being on the business side for the last decade plus, it lost a little bit of its luster. So in writing the Substack and developing mom friend, it's been so fun to kind of find that playfulness again where it's not so dependent on—my livelihood is not dependent on it. I can play with it, I can have fun, I can explore, I can learn, I can engage with it in a way that's a little bit different from my nine to five. In the last year or so, I started a new job. I'm a buyer now at a store in Soho in New York City, and I like to laugh about it and say that I just shop with someone else's money for a living, which is not super far off from the truth. But it still has that expectation that you're doing it for someone else—for a store with a different personality, a different customer, a different viewpoint. So on the Substack, it's fun for me to just do things for me. It's what I like. It's what I'm finding. It's what I'm resonating with as opposed to what I'm getting paid to find for someone else. That part has been a lot of fun. Maureen: That's a really clear and powerful distinction. When you're shopping for the retailer, it's not necessarily about your taste. It's also about what is going to sell, right? Just based off of some things that I've read from you. Is that kind of a fair shake? Jennifer: Absolutely. There's so much data these days behind my job. So it is kind of a gut feeling you have. It's a taste level. It's knowing your customer. But it's also looking at metrics like selling and developing merchandising plans based on how many iterations of a short sleeve you might need. It's looking at profit margins. These days, where it's being made and where it's shipping from is all the more important. So there's so many factors that come into how I'm buying for the store versus how I look at fashion and style just for myself. I've been lucky in this role. I've been able to bring a lot of my own personal taste and style and preferences into it. So I feel very fortunate that that's been afforded to me. But at the same time, there's so many other things that go into that job that are based on data and numbers and metrics and getting to know a different customer than I am. Our store is in Soho, New York. I live in Brooklyn. For those not in New York, those two things are worlds away from one another. The style that you see in Brooklyn and the style of people roaming around Soho—it's vastly different, even being just a few miles apart. So it's really interesting to have to kind of capture that information, process it, and then feed it back in a different way through the store and through my own style. Maureen: Totally cool if this is too much information from your company perspective, but what is your customer base like then for the brand? Jennifer: We started many years ago as a menswear brand. So our core customer is a guy. I kind of call him the LinkedIn bro of New York. You know the type—he's a corporate bro, he likes nice things, he's an aspirational customer. He's not totally buying luxury, but he's also not shopping at Zara. He wants things that feel good, that look good, that are basic and easy to wear and don't take a lot of styling. That's always been our core customer. In the last year, we've transitioned into becoming more of a multi-brand concept store. So we now have women's apparel, home goods, accessories, footwear. It's been a lesson in trying to figure out who that new customer is and how we get new people in the door. Being where we are in Soho, it is also very tourist-driven. It's striking that right balance between basics, vacation clothes, and fun grab-and-go items for people to remember their trip by. It really spans a wide range of customers. But it's also ever-changing. Especially in New York City—it's such a transient city. People are coming, they're going, they're changing jobs, they're having families, they're moving to Brooklyn. There's always change in who our people are. It's been fun over the last year to try and identify that and not just give them what they want, but also try and tell them what we think they should want. It's striking that balance between things we know they'll love and things we think they should be following. It's a hard balance to strike, but it's also really fun. Maureen: And I know that this line of questioning could seem tangential to your personal style. But for me, it helps me really understand where you're coming from and how you could get to that place where fashion is a little bit less fun. Everything you're describing sounds very cool and also very corporate. There's a connection element to knowing what your customer likes, but also very business-oriented. Going back to what originally drew you to fashion being the actual clothes and the experience of clothing—those feel worlds apart. What do you think your day job in fashion is? What is the impact of that on how you personally dress, if anything? Jennifer: It's a huge impact. Less so in my current job, but previously—before becoming a buyer—I was working on the wholesale side of the business where I was representing individual brands. Every time I would represent a brand, I would kind of have to dress in that style. I would dress in their clothes pretty much head to toe. Part of that was due to the fact that I usually had a nice allowance or got a steep discount, so it made it easier to dress like that. One of the perks of the job for sure. But part of that was also—you feel like a representative of that brand. I always felt like I needed to dress the part in order to sell it better and do my job better. Now that I'm on the buying side, I have a wider breadth of options to choose from, which is great. But on the other hand, there's so much out there that I almost feel too inundated with products sometimes. I'm looking at all these amazing products from hundreds of brands and it can be decision fatigue and information overload. It's been a lesson in trying to pare back my own style and see what resonates with me. What do I actually feel good in? What do I want to wear that fits my life? I'm looking at all these amazing products from hundreds of brands and it can be decision fatigue and information overload. It's been a lesson in trying to pare back my own style and see what resonates with me. What do I actually feel good in? What do I want to wear that fits my life? Part of my Substack is talking about fashion and how it relates to the life I actually live. I'm a newish mom. I have a toddler. I live in Brooklyn. I'm on my feet all the time. I'm always running around. I'm also a yoga teacher. I'm writing. All of these things play into the way I want to dress. And that's not really what I'm selling in my store necessarily. I need my clothes to work for me. I need them to be washable and easy to wear. I need sneakers. I need really basic things. I live in Brooklyn. I have a small closet. I don't have space. How can I get the most out of my clothes? Sometimes I feel lucky to be able to buy things for the store that I can't buy for myself because they don't fit my lifestyle. It's still a nice way to work with younger brands and designers, get them out there, without having to take on—not that it's a burden—but that burden myself of owning their product. It all plays together for sure. On the other hand, I'm out in the market all the time and sometimes I see amazing pieces that I’m like, I don’t care if I’ll ever get use out of this. I have to have it. I have to support this person. I need to have this brand in my closet. You just fall in love with things. That also said, if anyone’s worked in retail, you probably have experienced wanting something when it first hits the floor and three weeks later, absolutely not wanting to look at it ever again. So there are pieces I fall in love with that after three weeks I’m like, you know what—never mind. I actually don’t need this. So it all plays together. It’s been a lot more fun in this new role having exposure to multiple brands and not feeling so set on dressing as one brand or one style. That’s been a lot of fun to play with. But it’s also lined up with having a kid, which just totally flipped my wardrobe on its head. Maureen: Yeah. Well, we can talk a little bit more about that. And I also want to see what you think of this idea. So personally, I always have resonated more with what the designers are wearing than the actual clothes that go down the runway. And just based on, you know, like the chic black crew neck that you're wearing today and just other things that you share. And even just the lifestyle that you're describing that is more... like, our clothes need to be more utilitarian than always expressive and I feel like, I'm just curious, do you resonate with the designer style? Is that something, do you ever think about that? Jennifer: Always, always resonate with the designer style more than the clothes that go down the runway. These designers work hard. They're crazy busy. The women are, tend to be the ones that I follow most closely and most of them are moms. They have a lot of things going on. It's like me where you need to pare down your style and really keep it simple. I think there is something to be said about uniform dressing or capsule dressing or however you want to call it. That keeps having these small moments in the conversation and there is something to be said about that. It makes the getting dressed part of your life a little bit simpler so that you can focus on the work of creativity. And I think that is why designers tend to have a little bit, in my opinion, more of an interesting style—something that I resonate with a little bit more. Not that I don't love looking at the runway clothes. Always, always resonate with the designer style more than the clothes that go down the runway. These designers work hard. They're crazy busy. The women are, tend to be the ones that I follow most closely and most of them are moms. They have a lot of things going on. It's like me where you need to pare down your style and really keep it simple. Maureen: Oh, yeah. Jennifer: I think they're beautiful and they can be super creative and amazing, and the construction on some of them is just incredible. But at the end of the day, no one's wearing that, right? It's a marketing tool. These runway shows are marketing tools. And working on the wholesale side of the business, I know that most of what goes down the runway doesn't make it into stores. There's a whole other collection that these designers design that are made for retailers, that are made for people to actually buy. And that's not what you see on the runways. And so there's this whole other kind of underbelly of the industry that I feel closer with. And that includes dressing like the designers. They also just—they're amazing. They know what they're doing. They know how to dress their body. They know about proportions. It's so fun to watch them come out at the end because I'm like, okay, that's what I want to wear. Maureen: Yeah, same, same. Sometimes I feel like getting dressed super expressively can be a distraction from life. And so I feel like, yeah, if you imagined, like, Pier Paolo wearing super... what if he wore gowns or something in his day-to-day life? Would we take him as seriously? Because if you think about all the hours of glam or whatever he'd need to do to get to that place, wouldn't that take away from the time that he would need to be creative or to actually work on the designs? You know what I mean? Jennifer: Yeah, that and we live in an attention economy. And so when your attention becomes on yourself, when you start to make yourself the brand, when you start to dress in a certain type of way or put yourself out there in a certain type of way, then you become what people pay attention to. And I think designers know—some of them at least—that the attention needs to be on the clothes. It needs to be on the product, not themselves. Granted, it's hard to have a successful brand these days without a face behind it. So it's striking the right balance between those two things. But, you know, being in New York City too, it's average people. I take the subway multiple times a day and you can tell the people who are on the subway that are going somewhere where their job is their clothes or their job is to show off or they're trying to get attention or whatever it may be versus the people that are there on their way to the office. They have stuff to do. There is this dichotomy between people just walking around the city streets—the ones that want to be seen and that show off, and the ones that are there to work. And there's nothing wrong with either of those things. Maureen: Total, yeah. Jennifer: It's just what you think about when you get on in the morning. And I am not one of those people where I want to be seen. I don't. I don't want any attention. I want to just keep moving on with my day. And so I definitely dress for that. I want to blend in. But I also really appreciate the people that don't. I think it's so fun. I mean, the city streets are just a constant source of inspiration. So it's fun to walk around and observe that. But I do think we live in a society that feeds off of attention these days, and so it's just what kind of attention you want to bring to yourself. And our clothes speak volumes. Maureen: Thanks for going there with me. And of course, I would never try to get you to say anything bad about dressing more expressively, right? I think everyone has—there’s a space for every kind of dressing. Jennifer: Yeah. Maureen: And the only reason I was asking is just I felt like that's something that resonated with me about your style, is that I also kind of am personally more comfortable being a little bit more reserved with my style. Jennifer: Thank you. Maureen: And I think when you focus a lot of your energy in the fashion space on what’s going down the runway and things like that—certainly I can just say for myself—I felt a lot of pressure to be that flamingo, to be the peacock and do the most, and that I wasn't stylish if I wasn't doing the most. And so that's why paying attention to what the designers are wearing and even just, you know, what you're putting out there helps me be like, “Oh, I can be a fashionable person or stylish person and also wear things that are more subdued.” So that's really, I think it's nice to make space for all the different types of dressing. Jennifer: Absolutely. And I used to be that person too. I mean, when I was younger, dressed to the nines, I was always in heels and tight dresses. And I think as my life has progressed and my day-to-day has changed and my situation has evolved, those things have changed as well. And so I think everything has a season and a place and time. Ultimately, style just comes down to feeling good in what you're wearing. And if that is a basic black sweater and jeans—great. If that's a mini skirt and bra and high heels—great. If you're happy, I'm happy. That’s what matters. Maureen: I completely agree. I have one more mom friend question before we get into your personal style. Jennifer: Totally. Maureen: I really appreciate that your posts are labeled with the number at the start because it helps me remember when I'm reading that you have a large archive of posts. You were writing for a little while before I found you, and so I can go back and read your past work. With that said, are there any memorable favorites or underrated posts that you've written and are proud of? I'd love to know about them. Jennifer: You know, it's not that there is a specific post necessarily. I think a couple of things. First, my writing has evolved. I've been doing this for about a year now, and what it started as to what it is now is totally different. If you go all the way back to the beginning, it's just a different beast. It was more me trying to find my way as a new mom, so a lot of it was more personal essay-centric or parenting products or conversations around that. And as I've developed it and gotten used to writing, and as I've kind of grown with it, it's morphed into a lot of different things—more focused on just me and my personal style as well as politics. There's still some parenting and motherhood content, but it's a little more well-rounded. There are some great pieces that I wrote that were more personal essays a year ago when I was just starting out and I had like two followers, and I felt more comfortable just kind of putting it all out there on the internet. But on the other hand, part of the reason it's changed is because I realized what was gaining more traction and what people wanted to read. And as much as my goal is not to just pander to my audience, I do also want to know what they're interested in. I feel like I have a very specific viewpoint—working in fashion, being in New York City, being a mom—I think those are things that people are curious about. As people started to express more about what they wanted to hear and read, I started catering to that a bit. [Ed note: issue #60, a week in Jennifer Cook ’s life in Brooklyn, is the first one of hers I read, and I was immediately hooked.] So it's developed along with my audience. I don't necessarily think there's anything super underrated that I want people to go back and revisit. It's more just giving ourselves permission to evolve as we move, as we wish. Some of that is audience-direc

Heads up! There’s no episode next week while I’m away on vacation, but we’ll be back on Friday, May 23 with the penultimate episode of the season , featuring Substack favorite Jennifer Cook of mom friend . We’ll wrap up Season One on Friday May 30 with the incredible Christine Platt . You might know her from Instagram or one of her many books, The Afrominimalist’s Guide to Living With Less . I can’t wait to share these final episodes with you! This week’s guest is Calley Dawson, the founder and CEO of circular fashion company, FXRY . We chat about her long tenure in fashion, how her approach to style has changed, and her take on what sustainable fashion even is. Enjoy! Episode Transcript This transcript has been edited for clarity. You're listening to Intuitive Style , where we believe that everyone has style. I'm Maureen Welton. In conversation with fantastic guests, we explore how to tap into our style intuition so that we can dress authentically and live fully. Today's guest is Calley Dawson, creator of the circular fashion startup FXRY. She's a fashion industry veteran who turned her focus to reducing fashion waste by scaling tailoring and mending services. Basically, she's super amazing. Calley, welcome to the show. Calley: Thanks, Maureen. Thanks for having me. I'm excited to be here. Maureen: Yeah, it's so nice to get to sit down and talk a little bit more. I know we talked a bit a couple weeks ago, which is always fun. I had a look at your FXRY website and I loved your quote about your experience in the fashion industry and how you realized that was contributing to the landfill—and now you're looking to reverse that. Just to personalize that moment even further, can you share what got you on the path of advocating for circularity? Calley: Sure. I've worked in the fashion industry for twenty-five years at all kinds of different big brands around the United States. It was really exciting when I was younger. I really enjoyed the fun of fashion, and even when fast fashion started, it was really fun to be a part of it. I don't know if I was young or not aware—whatever it was, I just had no idea that it was so bad for the planet. But it was a really fun space to be in because it was exploding. For you, Maureen, or anyone listening, it's really fun to work at a company and in a space that's doing well. It's not very fun to work somewhere that's not doing so well. It just doesn't feel good. The longer I went on working at these different companies and as I've gotten older and matured, I started to realize that the values I have for myself in my own personal life—I want them to align with my work. I don't even know if I knew what my values were when I was in my early twenties. When I really started this journey of doing fashion design, over the years I've come to realize that doing good by the planet and, honestly, just doing good is what feels best for me. I want to always be doing what is the better thing of two options. Nothing's perfect—everything we create has its flip side—but I just want to be marching towards what feels good. So for me, when I left the last company I was at and thought about what I wanted to do next, no company really excited me in fashion and apparel. I really didn’t want to lose the network and everything I had built up in my career. If I had switched into a different category—if I wanted to go do tech—I’d have to learn something fully new. I really wanted to utilize my skill sets and the network I’d built up. It was just really exciting to realize that I could align my values by doing something that was truly sustainable and not greenwashing. That was the other thing that was really hard to watch. I sat in these design director positions and had to advocate for my company while also helping people more junior on my team understand how this isn’t greenwashing. And in a lot of cases, accepting that that’s what we were doing, because most brands are overproducing—especially the big ones. Maureen: Yeah, and that’s really interesting what you said about going where feels right because this idea of intuitive style is, of course, about what we wear and choosing clothes that feel good. But there’s also an aspect of paying attention to what feels good in every aspect of our lives. I really appreciate what you're sharing about what felt right for you with your career. I'd love to hear a little bit more too. I like to make this comparison that intuition isn’t negating experience, nor is it negating expertise. So I'd love to hear a little bit more from your perspective about how your expertise in fashion led you to figuring out what felt right—versus just a gut feeling. You talked about not knowing your values earlier on. How did you develop that sense of your values and what you wanted to do at work? Calley: To be really honest, I think one of the biggest things for me is I'm sober. I live in a community of sober people where one of our tenets is to just do good and to make amends for bad things we've done in the past, or things that weren’t appropriate. That has really guided my life. When I was younger and newly sober, I didn’t know how to talk about that. I hid it a little bit. As I’ve gotten older and more comfortable in my own skin, I’m the first person to shout it from the rooftops. This is a part of my life and a big part of who I am. That’s really allowed me to set forth who I am and bring it into my career. I’ll be one of the first people at a company party to tell people I don’t drink. I’m sober. I’m comfortable with that. Allowing those parts of my personal life to be in my career and to lead with the values I’ve developed from there has been really important to me. I’d say it’s been an amazing experience learning how to manage people at work and realizing how different everyone is. Also realizing that the way things work is by collaboration and coming together. But the only way that you can come together—for example, to do circularity, because you can’t do it by yourself—it requires so many different people. It made me realize that we’re all so different, and the only way you get full collaboration is by fully understanding each other: why you’re different, how you’re different. So you have to be your authentic self, so that you can show other people who you are. It allows them to show you who they are, and then you can figure out the path forward. In this case, with sustainability and really figuring out how we can solve this massive overproduction problem. I know that’s a lot of things, but— Maureen: No, that's amazing. I appreciate everything you just shared. As an aside, I stopped drinking habitually, so I just want to connect with you in that way. I wouldn’t call myself sober in that sense, but I have made some very dramatic changes to my relationship with substances in general. It’s a learning process to figure out how to talk about it with people—if at all. Now that I’ve been doing this for a little while longer, I’m like, “Oh, everything about my life is different. I can tell people this because it’s important to who I am.” So I appreciate you sharing that because I think it’s really helpful for people to hear. Just not being ashamed, no matter how anyone might react. I’d love to talk a little more about FXRY and what you’re trying to do with it. I watched some of your social media videos and one thing that really stood out to me was a video showing a mending experience for a pair of stretchy jeans. That really connected with me as someone who wears stretchy pants. Stretchy jeans specifically—there are some very loud voices that are anti-stretch denim, and I think that’s totally great. If you’re a person who can wear non-stretch denim, please enjoy that. And for everyone else who does wear them, I just really appreciated seeing that there is a way to mend that kind of denim and keep it in use, rather than just saying, “Oh, we should never buy that kind of thing.” So I’d love to hear a bit more—not necessarily about that specifically—but about the FXRY approach and how that extends the life of clothing, perhaps compared to other circular fashion alternatives. Calley: Yeah, totally. You bring up a really great point that's talked about often in these circularity circles that I find myself in. There are definitely different camps, and then there are people who sort of reside in both. Some people are really strong that you should buy quality and therefore spend the money to maintain the quality. And some people are like, but I can't afford that. So I'm going to buy the cheaper option. I've definitely been in some conversations where someone said, we shouldn't fix the Zara stuff. And I’m like, no, we should fix everything—as long as we can fix it. If someone will wear it, we need to fix it. One of the biggest problems with waste is the plastic and the synthetics. Zara and other similar brands are the problem in the landfill. So however we can keep them going longer is important. At the same time, I would encourage people to think more about what they’re purchasing. From my personal experience, I used to be a crazy Zara shopper. I spent so much money there every month. I'd get this huge haul shipped to my house, go through it, send half of it back, and keep the rest. I’d wear it not for very long, and then I don’t even know what I did with it—probably donated it to Goodwill. Today, I haven’t bought anything from Zara for probably three years. One of my favorite shirts is from Zara, and I will wear that thing until it’s a rag. We definitely have people who come in or book online to repair fast fashion items, and they end up spending more than they originally paid. That works for them because they love the item. I would really encourage people to buy stuff they absolutely love. Don’t buy something just because it’s the trend of the moment. If you love the way it looks on you and how it makes you feel—which is what your podcast is all about—then it makes sense to buy it. We were actually contemplating whether to post that stretchy denim [video]. I was hesitant because it’s not this ethos of quality and vintage. But we were all like, we have to repair all clothing—including stretchy denim—so let’s show people that you can repair your stretch denim and keep it if you love it. Maureen: Yeah, I had that thought—like, I feel represented by this. In some spaces, I feel actively excluded from the conversation because of my preferences. That really connected with me, and I imagine a lot of other people would feel the same way. These are potential customers, which is good for your bottom line, but also when we think about what we’re actually striving to do when we talk about circular fashion, why wouldn’t we want to make the circle bigger, more welcoming, and more accepting? I appreciate that you're going in that direction. That really connected with me. So anything else about FXRY that you feel excited about? I didn’t give you a chance to say exactly what it is, so I’d love if you could talk a bit more specifically about the service. Calley: Yes, absolutely. FXRY is clothing alterations and repairs at your fingertips. You book online, and as long as you live in Seattle, White Center, or Bellevue, we come to your house, pick it up, take it to our studio, fix or alter it, and return it within two weeks. If that doesn’t work for you—if you need a fitting or an in-person experience—we do pop-ups all over Seattle. We partner with Filson, Eileen Fisher, Anthropologie, Jenni Kane, and a lot of local boutiques and vintage spots. I imagine in the next year we’ll cover every single spot in Seattle. We've really been popping up everywhere! We just moved into our own commercial space, and we’re figuring out how to bring that to life, likely through pop-up events for now. We’re also introducing mail-in and mail-out services in the next few months. Right now, if you want to use our services and live outside the greater Seattle area, you can email us, and we’ll get you access to our booking portal. We’re just trying to keep clothing in rotation and out of landfills. That’s really our marketing message. We differ from your local dry cleaner or tailor—not that they aren't doing great work—but they’re not creating a platform to advocate for this kind of change. That’s really important to me and to our business model. Clothing repair is crucial to keeping clothes in use, but so are alterations. If your clothing fits you really well, you're going to love it for longer. I can’t tell you how many jeans I’ve gotten rid of because the waist was too gaping. Now, I just have my team at FXRY nip in the waist, and I have jeans that fit perfectly. Maureen: That’s incredible. When I got married a couple years ago, I told my friend I bought a cheap jumpsuit for my reception. I thought maybe I should have gotten something nicer, but then I had it altered—and the alterations were expensive. I told my friend maybe I should’ve bought something more expensive. And she said, “Girl, you have a $400 jumpsuit now!” Because that’s how much the alterations cost. It went from just an okay garment to an incredible one, just by having it fitted to me. When I was done wearing it, I took it to Brides for a Cause in Seattle and donated it. The woman there said, “We’re always looking for jumpsuits. I’m so glad you brought this in.” It had a wonderful, beautiful life and now lives on in my photos. So yeah, the power of alterations is very real for me too. I know you're an entrepreneur and have professional fashion experience, but this podcast is also about personal style. Before we talk about how you decide what to buy and wear, I want to talk a little bit about your eyewear. It seems to be part of your signature style based on the cool glasses you’re wearing now. Calley: Yeah, it’s definitely a forced part of my style because I don’t have terrible eyesight now, but that hasn’t always been the case. I’m forty-five now, and when I turned forty, my eyesight started to go. I didn’t know this, but my doctor said eyesight decline around forty is especially common in women. So when my eyesight started to go, I thought, okay, if I have to wear glasses, they’re going to be cool. My first pair was really cool—kind of like this style—but in a plastic mauvey color. I got them from MyTheresa or SSENSE, one of those European designer platforms. They were Isabel Marant glasses. They were non-refundable, and I just hoped the optician could switch out the lenses, and luckily they could. Those were my first glasses, and they were just readers at first. Now, over the years, I can’t see up close or far away. I was just telling my husband the other night, “What if I’m going blind?” because it’s disappearing from both ends. It’s mostly reading though—I literally can’t see my phone without my glasses. Over five years, I’ve only had three pairs. The ones I’m wearing now aren’t the best prescription. My best ones are black, and they look amazing but box in my eyesight, which I don’t love. I don’t think contacts would work for me because I have a progressive prescription, and I don’t love the idea of putting something in my eye every day. So I’ve just embraced the glasses. It’s sweet of you to notice. Maureen: I think it's fun—like we all have different constraints on what we decide to buy or wear. If you have an opportunity to turn a constraint into something really fun and expressive, that's really nice, and I respect it. So, talking a bit more about your personal style, can you share how you decide what to buy or wear—or what not to? Calley: My style has certainly changed over the years—not only because of shifting trends, but also because I used to be a fast fashion addict. About five years ago, I started to shift, and then three years ago, I completely cut that off and stopped shopping that way. It might also be because I’m an entrepreneur now, and money is different when you’re making it for yourself instead of getting a paycheck. Today, I really focus on what I love—what makes me excited. If I see something in a store and I want to wear it out immediately, I know I need it. That doesn’t happen often, and I think it’s because I’ve collected items I truly love. I have a uniform I wear more than anything: a cropped denim button-down with slightly baggy jeans and some mules. Then I have this incredible vintage army liner jacket with a great story—it’s been upcycled and resold multiple times. I picked it up, and then I had FXRY repair it. It's an amazing piece, and I’m excited to add more clothes with stories like that. I’m really looking for quality items that are durable and sturdy. Recently, I’ve been staying away from synthetic fibers and going more organic and natural. That’s hard with gym wear, which I use a lot, but I’m figuring it out. I’m also staying away from anything poorly made. Maureen: That’s fair. I heard something earlier that I wanted to come back to—about that moment of knowing you want to wear something out of the store. Can you describe how that feels in your body? What’s that experience like? Calley: It’s definitely a rush of dopamine, but it feels like more than that. I think I get excited because it’s going to become a part of me—like I’m adding it to my uniform. It’s a full-body excitement, but not in a jolt kind of way. It feels calm, like a sense of belonging. That thing belongs with me. It's kind of like when I met my husband and knew we needed to be together. I know it sounds ridiculous to compare that to a clothing purchase, but it’s a similar feeling—just a different degree of intensity. Maureen: I’m hearing a sense of connection—something you relate to and connect with. Calley: Yes, definitely. Another thing I realized is I used to go overboard. If I liked cropped button-downs, I’d go buy fifty in different styles. I don’t need that. Now I ask myself: would I want to wear this more than what I’m wearing right now? That’s really helpful—especially when I’m already wearing an outfit I love and I’m out shopping. Would I trade it for what I’m looking at? Maureen: Yes, yes. I just put up a post recently about what our favorite items can tell us about our preferences. When you have those rock star, go-to items, it becomes easier to evaluate future purchases. If it’s not as good as the thing you already love, why add it? You’ll just default to the one you already love. Of course, different categories are different—a denim jacket isn’t the same as a pair of hiking boots—but I follow the same mentality. I love hearing when others experience that too. What else about the experience of being in your clothing influences how you dress? We talked about fabric—avoiding synthetics. Is that more about feel or sustainability? Calley: More about sustainability. Being in this world now, I have so much more access to information and research. People are constantly sharing how harmful synthetics can be—like microplastics that get washed out and then end up on your skin all day. I saw a TikTok recently that really made me think about what I want against my most exposed organ—my skin. I’d never thought about it before. You can even go deeper with types of dyes, but for now, I’m just starting here. If I go too deep, I get overwhelmed, and then I feel paralyzed. Small steps feel more manageable. Interestingly, I realized I’m starting to prefer how cotton feels, even if I didn’t consciously connect it before. Today, I was picking out a shirt, and I chose a cotton one instead of a synthetic blend. Maybe it was intuitive. Maureen: I don’t have an opinion on that one way or another—it’s not for me to say—but I was curious if your decision was more emotional or analytical. Calley: It’s been very recent—just in the last couple of weeks—that the idea of organic versus synthetic started coming up for me. I hadn’t thought about it before. Now it’s starting to surface. My husband has also influenced me. He’s always dressed in good quality, well-made things that tend not

Only a few more episodes in Season 1 of the podcast! Don’t missing upcoming conversations with Calley Dawson — founder of circular fashion brand FXRY , plus Jennifer Cook of mom friend , and one more surprise guest I can’t wait to reveal. Make sure you're subscribed—you won't want to miss the finale! Today’s guest is stylist, writer, and creative consultant Fanny Adams of Always Overdressed . We connect over losing touch with our preppy roots while in art school, plus Fanny provides a bit more detail on her concept of the ‘Emotional Support Outfit.’ This episode touches on some tender topics—grief, body changes, and navigating personal style through it all. If you're having a tough week, know that we go there —but we also find some lightness and laughter by the end. Enjoy. Episode Transcript This transcript has been edited for clarity. You're listening to Intuitive Style , where we believe that everyone has style. In conversation with fantastic guests, we explore how to tap into that intuition so we can dress authentically and live fully. Today's guest is Fanny Adams , a stylist, writer, and creative consultant with nearly twenty years of experience in fashion. She's also an outfit repeater and the brains behind the Substack newsletter Always Overdressed . Fanny, welcome to the show. Fanny: Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to be here. Maureen: It's nice to sit down and talk together. For anyone who hasn’t had a chance to read your column yet, can you share what got you started writing on the platform? Fanny: It had been in the back of my mind for a few years, but what really prompted it wasn’t a happy reason. My dad died a year and a half ago. I not only lost my sense of self but also my sense of style. I had a lot of thoughts on grief—how it affects you inwardly and how it impacts your outward presentation. I had this essay in my head for a few months. I was also looking to go out on my own as a stylist, and Substack felt like a nice complement to building my brand. That essay, combined with launching my website, got me out there. Maureen: I'm genuinely sorry for your loss. How did the process of writing relate to your experience of grief? Fanny: I had the honor of writing my dad’s obituary. That was my first experience writing to process loss, and it was really sad but meaningful. Last summer, while quietly building my Substack page and thinking about my first post, I made a promise to myself: I would get dressed every day. Something as simple as putting on real clothes—not just sweats—became a way to work through grief. It gave me a small, manageable goal. Sometimes even the smallest tasks feel enormous when you’re struggling. I started putting on what I call my "emotional support outfits"—simple, comforting clothes. Then I started documenting them. Some friends encouraged me to post on TikTok, so I did, mostly to hold myself accountable. At night, I'd think about things I wanted to write about—not just grief, but other style topics. That’s how it all began. Maureen: I love that. Having a small goal like getting dressed can give you confidence to do other things. Is that how it felt? Fanny: Definitely. Getting dressed was the first step to getting the day started, then moving on to harder tasks. It also became a form of self-care. During the year after my dad’s death, I gained weight. So part of the process was giving myself grace—finding clothes that felt and looked good enough for where I was at. It helped me feel more presentable while also rediscovering pieces I loved. At one point, I realized, "I need new jeans." And that was okay. We’re allowed to gain or lose weight. Our bodies change all the time—monthly even. So I gave myself permission to buy things that fit. That made the experience much more enjoyable. Maureen: It can be hard to give ourselves permission to buy clothes that suit where we are now—especially when we’re trying to be mindful consumers. What did it change for you, having clothes that fit? Fanny: I learned not to immediately get rid of clothes when my size changes, but I’m still guilty of it. Giving yourself permission to buy clothes that fit your current body is self-care and self-acceptance. It’s about meeting yourself where you are. I’m a millennial. I grew up with specific body ideals, and I’ve worked really hard to unlearn them. But it’s tough when you’ve worked in fashion and retail. That pressure is everywhere. Why make it harder? At one point, I bought jeans from Zara. I wasn’t sure how long I’d be this size, and they were a good, affordable option. Honestly, I now swear by Zara jeans—they did what I needed them to do. They helped me stay on track with this daily dressing practice. Maureen: I saw you recently posted that you’d fallen off the dressing routine. Fanny: Yeah, I’ve slipped a bit. It’s just life—nothing traumatic, just busy. But last summer, those pieces really helped. They were a bridge. Over time, I’ve invested in higher-quality pieces that fit me now. But Zara jeans were the perfect in-between step. They helped rebuild my confidence. Maureen: I really resonate with that. We all define mindful shopping differently. For me, my size is changing constantly right now. My approach is to buy fewer items and wear them to death. That’s how I justify buying from places like Gap. I’ve tried more expensive, more ethical jeans, but they don’t fit the way I need—or they don’t carry my size. We don’t need to defend our choices. What works at one moment might change in another. Right now, I’m buying Gap jeans. Not too many. I’ll wear them as long as I can, and one pair will become shorts for summer. The reason I bring it up is because I’ve been feeling tender about some things I’ve read online—posts that unintentionally shame people for shopping certain brands. When we’re already carrying heavy emotions—like grief or major body changes—we don’t need to add shame on top of that. Fanny: Absolutely. I think there’s a lot of pressure put on consumers, and I don’t think it’s fair. It’s all about balance. Like, giving up plastic straws isn’t solving the environmental crisis, but it’s something I can do. The same goes for how we get dressed. “High-low dressing,” for lack of a more current term, is a realistic way to shop. I don’t think it’s feasible—even if you’re a gazillionaire—to wear only designer or fully sustainable brands. We all make trade-offs. I buy four Uniqlo t-shirts at a time. It’s not the most sustainable choice, and Uniqlo, while more responsible than other fast fashion brands, is still fast fashion. But those are the shirts that fit me best, and I wear them nearly every day. I’m not going to spend $95 on a sustainable t-shirt that doesn’t fit or hold up the way I need. As consumers, we need to: shop for what fits and feels good, and do the best we can We’re part of the system, but we’re not the sole cause. Our wallets matter, sure, and it’s important to think about where we shop. But it's unrealistic to expect everyone to wear only organic, sustainable clothes—especially when you factor in size and price point. We need to be gentler with ourselves and each other, especially when we have a platform. We're already our own worst critics. Adding judgment from peers, writers, or creators only makes things worse. Maureen: I really appreciated your note on Substack about not feeling the joy of getting dressed right now. I related to that. Sometimes getting dressed is self-care, and sometimes it’s not. Sometimes, it’s the hardest part of the day. When we’re not distracted—when we’re alone in our room choosing an outfit—that’s when all the feelings we’ve been avoiding can bubble up. It’s not always about the clothes, but they can be the trigger. So hearing that from someone like you, who’s always overdressed and who works in fashion, helps bring balance. It’s a reminder that it’s okay to not always feel excited about getting dressed. Fanny: Thank you. Part of why I posted that was to let people know I hadn’t disappeared—I just wasn’t in the right headspace. I plan to write more about it this week. Going back to the idea of the emotional support outfit—some call it a uniform, but I think it’s either a step before or a step beyond. It’s a formula: something you can throw on without thinking too much, something that feels good enough. When my dad was sick, that outfit was jean shorts, a t-shirt, and Birkenstocks. I wasn’t working much—just helping my family and caring for my kids. That outfit made me feel comfortable and fine. Now that I’m consulting and meeting people in person again, I needed an updated version. I found that for me, it’s a button-up shirt, jeans or khakis, and loafers or ballet flats. That’s my current version of an emotional support outfit. I can throw on a sweater or a jacket, but those three pieces make me feel polished and comfortable. I’m literally wearing it right now—button-up shirt, jeans, and Birkenstocks since I’m at home. It helps me feel confident and presentable, even when clothes aren’t my focus. We all need to know the combination of items that helps us feel good enough to move through the day—whether we’re parenting, working, or just getting through it. We want to feel great, but that’s not always realistic. These past two weeks, I found myself repeating the same shirts because it worked. I was seeing different people each day, so no one noticed. But it made me not want to take outfit pictures—it was basically the same look over and over. Still, it was good to have that fallback formula. It kept me moving forward even when the joy of getting dressed wasn't there. And I still felt good leaving the house. It wasn’t exciting, but it worked. It’s like how Obama wore the same suit-and-tie combo daily—it reduced decision fatigue. There are times when, even if you love clothes, they can’t be your top priority. Having an emotional support outfit takes away the shame of not feeling your best. You can still do the things you need to do—school drop-offs, work meetings—and feel pretty good about yourself. Maureen: And maybe you’ll touch on this in your post, but I think the hardest part can be figuring out what that uniform even is when you’re stuck. Do you have any suggestions for that? Fanny: When you're really in the thick of it, figuring out your “uniform” can be hard. It’s a bit of trial and error. But if you’re trying to identify key pieces—your hero pieces—you can fall back on, one technique I love is setting aside a section of your closet. If you have a rolling rack, great. If not, just use one area. As you wear things throughout the week, move them into that space. After a few days, you’ll start to see what you’re actually gravitating toward. We all have full closets but usually wear the same handful of items. Seeing them set apart can help you recognize patterns. You might realize you keep wearing a pair of jeans—not because you love them, but because they fit right now. That insight can guide you to find a pair you actually love. Or maybe, like me, you’re reaching for a button-up, a sweater, and jeans every day. That tells you something. This exercise helps cut through closet overwhelm. I’m not saying you have to get rid of everything else, but knowing what your go-to items are is powerful. Maybe it’s a favorite cashmere sweater—then you know it’s worth taking good care of and making it last. Or maybe you realize you keep reaching for a blazer but don’t have one that fits or feels current. That helps you shop more thoughtfully, instead of just saying, “I have nothing to wear” and heading straight to the store without a plan. I use this with clients too. It’s not just about finding your formula—it helps you sort through what you already own and identify what’s missing. Wardrobes are works in progress. Our lives change, our bodies change, our needs change. You might also start noticing color preferences. I recently realized I don’t wear much black anymore—except for one sweater and some accessories. It’s not that I dislike black, but it’s not where I’m at right now. So I know not to keep bringing more black into my wardrobe. These kinds of observations can be more helpful than arbitrary “style rules.” I don’t love the word “rules” in fashion anyway. I prefer “formula” or “guidelines.” They give you structure without boxing you in. Maureen: I love that, and it actually reminds me of the design process in my work. I’m a user researcher and designer in the software world, and what you just described sounds like a discovery phase. You don’t start with the solution—you start by understanding the problem. And shopping is often treated like the solution, but without understanding what’s not working, we could be solving the wrong thing. It’s not that shopping is bad—we just want to make informed decisions. Use the data from your own wardrobe before clicking “add to cart.” Fanny: Exactly. And hey, we’re still allowed to shop for the dopamine hit once in a while. I’m not anti-shopping. But if you want a wardrobe that’s cohesive and makes you feel confident, you’ll get further by shopping with a purpose. And it’s tricky because for many of us, browsing is a form of relaxation. It’s part of the culture. Instagram has become a marketplace, and sometimes you end up on a brand’s website without even realizing you clicked through. Browsing is okay. But having a working shopping list in mind while you’re browsing helps. It lets you consume more consciously—better for the environment and your budget. Especially right now, with financial uncertainty, it’s a good time to get creative with what we already have. Historically, moments of constraint lead to creativity. So I’m curious to see what comes out of this period, too. People might not want to shop as much, and that discomfort with consumption might be where some of the criticism and shame comes from. Choosing not to shop is a political act. Our wallets speak volumes. But we’re also human. Clothes wear out, and if we’re shopping mindfully, that’s okay. I don’t think clothes are frivolous. For me, dressing is one of my truest creative outlets. To say fashion doesn’t matter discredits how we present ourselves to the world. Not everyone has to love fashion, but everyone has style. Everyone has preferences. It’s just a matter of how much attention and time they give it. Maureen: That’s so important. One of the main ideas behind my platform is that everyone has style. We’ve just lost the ability to center our own preferences and trust that they’re valid. People say, “I don’t have style,” but their closet is full of choices—choices based on what they like, or what they think they should like. Either way, it’s valid. It might be survival, it might be self-expression, or a bit of both. It’s not a binary—you have style or you don’t. Everyone gets dressed. We just need to expand what we think “style” is. Fanny: Absolutely. And honestly, I find that people who don’t work in fashion often have the most interesting, authentic style. My dad worked in construction later in life and wore jeans and polos every day, but when it came time to dress up, he wore custom suits. My mom’s an artist. Fashion was important in our house—not in a designer-label way, but in a creative, expressive way. Some of the most stylish women I know are doctors, lawyers—people whose jobs don’t involve fashion at all. I actually think the more limitations people have, the more creatively they dress. Kids in school uniforms figure out how to express themselves through socks or accessories. Adults do the same—doctors might wear bold glasses or jewelry. You find ways to express yourself within constraints. So when people say they don’t have style, I think they’re actually discrediting themselves. They just might not feel fashionable , but they definitely have a style. You don’t have to be a “fashion girly” to have good style. In fact, sometimes those of us deep in the industry get so caught up in consuming the same media that our ideas start to blur. It’s often people outside the echo chamber who are coming up with the freshest, most thought-provoking takes. Fanny: The subject matter overlaps a lot—we're reading the same magazines, watching the same fashion shows, following similar creators. Even though we have different points of view, there's still this shared pool of inspiration. Sometimes I wonder, “If I publish this, will people think I’m copying someone?” But it’s just that the content we’re consuming is so pervasive across every part of our lives, it’s natural there’s overlap. Sorry, that was a bit of a tangent. Maureen: No, I’m with you the whole way. I’ve been thinking a lot about how far I want to go with this because, if I’m being honest, fashion is one of my favorite things in the world—right up there with my family and marine mammals. But I don’t work in fashion, and even though I love writing and talking about it, I sometimes hit a wall. I wonder, “How do I make this about more than just clothes? How do we have real conversations about our lives? How do we see clothing as just one part of a full, complex personhood? That’s actually why I started my Sunday Reset newsletter series. Fanny: I love that series so much. That first one you sent really connected with me. Maureen: Thank you! I really appreciate that. I had this moment where I wondered if it would be interesting to anyone because it wasn’t strictly about fashion—or if it would come off as preachy. But I approached it like a note to myself. When I feel burned out from consuming too much fashion content, I need some kind of personal practice. I want to make space for inspiration that comes from outside the internet—and also from within. I’m not going to stop reading people’s posts, but I want to be intentional about reminding myself that’s not the only place to draw from. Sometimes we get into this all-or-nothing mindset: if I’m burned out, maybe I should stop writing entirely. But maybe it’s not that. Maybe it’s just shifting focus for a bit. I guess I’m grappling with whether turning something we love into a chore is just inevitable when we spend too much time on it. Fanny: Yeah, I think it can happen. When you're burnt out or feeling stuck, the things we usually love can start to feel like chores. And I don’t think you can always stop that from happening. The real question is how you move through it—maybe it’s by taking a break, leaning on outfit formulas that make you feel good without much effort, or finding new sources of inspiration. That’s why your Sunday Reset newsletter has felt so refreshing. It’s a reminder that inspiration outside of fashion is just as valuable. Maureen: I appreciate that. Fanny: I’ll admit I’ve struggled to finish a book in the past few years, but when I find one that really grabs me—usually not fashion-related—it’s such a good reset. Same with going to a museum, or just getting outside now that the weather’s nicer. It’s not about quitting fashion or getting dressed or writing. It’s just about focusing on something else for a while, and then letting that bring you back around to fashion in a new way. Maureen: That’s really helpful—and thank you for reading. I appreciate you going with me through this conversation. I always hope these talks feel uplifting and light, but sometimes they go into heavier territory. I’m just really grateful you were willing to go there with me today. Sometimes, that’s just where we are—and I think it’s important to name it rather than pretend everything’s fine. Fanny: Absolutely. Maureen: So, shifting gears a little—I’d love to talk about one of my favorite posts of yours. It felt a bit more upbeat, and it was about reconnecting with your preppy style roots. You mentioned earlier that you’d tried to fit in with the hipster art kids in Silver Lake during school, and as a design school grad myself, I really relate. Can you talk a bit about how you found your way back to that preppy part of yourself and learned to embrace it? Fa

Did you know new episodes of Intuitive Style drop weekly on Fridays? Subscribe so you don’t miss Fanny Adams , Jennifer Cook and more special guests in upcoming weeks! Today's guest is Sienna Reid , writer of the Substack column The Bronze Edit . I am both so inspired by her very cool personal style AND the way she writes about the experience of getting dressed. I so enjoyed connecting with her. Enjoy! Episode Transcript This transcript has been edited for clarity. You're listening to Intuitive Style , where we believe that everyone has style. I'm Maureen Welton. In conversation with fantastic guests, we explore how to tap into our style intuition so that we can dress authentically and live fully. Today's guest is Sienna Reid from The Bronze Edit . In her newsletter, Sienna chronicles her experience figuring out her personal style in her 30s. As a fellow wide pants lover, she pulls the best inspiration images and eloquently analyzes how getting dressed feels. Sienna, welcome to the show. Sienna: Thank you so much, Maureen. I'm so happy to be here. Maureen: We've been having internet conversations for a while, so it's nice to actually see your face and talk to you. One of my favorite posts of yours is about the outfits you're too afraid to wear. I love how you bring awareness to that feeling—when you're excited to wear something authentic, you have all the right pieces, but it just doesn't feel quite right once it's on. You end up changing into something else. Could you share more about that post and what initially drew you to those outfits? Sienna: Yes, absolutely. That post came from a moment when I was getting dressed for my niece’s birthday party. I don’t have kids, so I was already feeling a little unsure about what to wear to something like that. I wanted to feel like myself but still fit in. I put together an outfit with a floral dress layered under a sweater and over jeans—pieces I’ve owned for years. I loved how it looked in the mirror. But the moment I thought about walking out the door, a flood of insecurity hit me. What will people think? Will I be taken seriously? Which is wild because it's a toddler’s birthday party. But the voice of doubt was loud. And that’s what made me write that post. I realized I already owned my dream wardrobe, but I didn’t always have the confidence to wear it. And the response to the post made me realize so many people feel the same way. That alone gave me the push to actually wear one of those outfits out. Maureen: Do you think it was sharing that post online that changed how you felt about those outfits? Sienna: I think it helped, yes. I wasn’t posting it to get validation, but seeing how many people resonated with the experience reminded me that people aren’t scrutinizing me the way I imagine. That realization helped ground me. It’s not that the outfit is wrong—it’s just fear. If I want to show up in a way that feels true to me, I have to push past that fear. And it's not easy. I’ve only worn one of the outfits from that post, but it’s a start. Maureen: I have a theory I’d love to hear your take on. Do you think we’re drawn to these outfits because they’re more expressive or editorial, which makes them harder to wear? Like we’re asserting something about ourselves that feels bold or different from what’s around us? Sienna: I think you're really hitting the nail on the head because I think most of us here do love fashion or style or something about getting dressed. Otherwise, I think we wouldn't be here. But then it is scary to go out into that real world and, and kind of say to the world, yes, I actually am interested in this , or t his is something that I actually enjoy doing . It's kind of really putting yourself out there because. If you go out and people think, oh, she put no effort into her outfit , then I don't care if they judge me, right? But it's scarier if they think, s he tried and came up with that? But it's scarier if they think, she tried and came up with that? I think the other piece is, there's something about to like, when I'm alone in my room, and I think about outfits I love, I do like when they're different. And I do like when they stand out. But then That is also really hard because in the, you know, in my real life, I'm a pretty introverted person. Like I don't love a lot of attention. So it's tough. Maureen: This is a really big question, but what are you afraid of? I'm asking myself too, right? I think you, you got pretty close with the idea of It's, it's harder when I've actually tried. It's more vulnerable than when I didn't try. Maybe that's why everyone's so obsessed with looking effortless? Sienna: That's actually such a good point. Yeah. I do think that is a huge part of it. Like I even think about, you know, other things in, in my life, like whether it's career or sports or things like that. It's kind of like when you're just starting out and there's no. Expectation that you should be good at it. It's okay if you fail, but. It's like if once you go farther and you've put in that work to get better, if you still fail, that's a lot harder to deal with. Maureen: I'd love to transition then to talking about the Bronze Edit. I feel some pressure as someone writing about style online, I feel like I should be pushing myself a little bit further, be a little bit more expressive or, I should be trying a little bit harder. Is that something that crosses your mind ever with The Bronze Edit? Sienna: That's a really good question. I think a couple of things. I think the one next almost negative that I've noticed is that — and I really fight this — I repeat the same outfits a lot. I have a couple of sweaters, a couple of pairs of jeans that without fail, I will wear every week. Maybe I wear like a different belt, but it's basically the same outfit. And I think there is sometimes this sense of guilt that I feel when I post the same thing over and over again, even though that's so normal in real life. It's almost like, okay, is this super boring for people? Because I literally wore this outfit last week and the week before and the week before. I consciously don't let me stop, like stop me from wearing those outfits because I love them, they're comfortable. I'm just gonna wear them. A very positive thing that has come out of it is that It's sort of giving me more confidence to try new things. I'm not at a point where I feel pressure to try and be more experimental. I have found it's actually been kind of a, a positive, um, effect to sort of say like, yes, you can try new things. If it doesn't work out, then that's probably a really fun thing to write about as well. It's been just such a natural organic thing. And I think you had posted something recently about like sort of the difference between Instagram and Substack. I don't think I will ever be someone who is regularly posting on Instagram. I just don't think that could work for me and my personality. That would be a lot of pressure to be coming up with these super cool outfits all the time. Whereas with Substack, if my outfits are boring, then I can write about how my outfits are boring and work through things that way. I don't think I will ever be someone who is regularly posting on Instagram. I just don't think that could work for me and my personality. That would be a lot of pressure to be coming up with these super cool outfits all the time. Whereas with Substack, if my outfits are boring, then I can write about how my outfits are boring and work through things that way. Maureen: Yeah, I would love to talk about this more because I had this thought the other day and I want to make the disclaimer that I think that Substack is a social media platform just like any other. The thing that I like about Substack is that there is long form content and so inherently that means that we aren't trying to make every little thing a sound bite that you can just digest in like a second. The process of trying to write my little Instagram bio was an absolute headache because everything that I write is really nuanced. And I can say something that can be completely contradictory to something else, and I hold space for both. A lot of writers on Substack do that and that's the benefit of a long form narrative is that you can actually get into the meat of something. Maybe that's why I like YouTube so much too — you can go so much deeper with long-form. Then on Instagram, I tried to promote this podcast, which doesn’t come naturally to me. Instead of putting up clips, I thought I had to make videos of myself putting on clothes. And I didn’t like it. It’s not what I want to do, so I only made two videos. But I had a moment where I thought, “Why am I trying to sell my personal identity and style?” That’s not what I do on Substack. I don’t know how you feel about that, because your platform is very much about your personal style, but it’s more nuanced. It’s about the experience. Sienna: Yeah, I think that’s true. For me, it’s rarely about the outfit or even the clothes themselves. Half the time, I forget to link what I’m wearing and then think, “Okay, maybe that’s annoying,” but it’s never really about saying, “Here’s a cool outfit I put together, you should copy it.” It’s about how I got there, how I felt. Honestly, half the time I’m just working through things in real time as I write — writing helps me process. That’s so different from Instagram, where it’s more about the visual — do I like the outfit or not? And that’s fine; I love using Instagram for inspiration. But for me, personally, I don’t think I could handle the pressure. It doesn’t fit my personality, and that’s okay. It’s not a moral judgment. It’s just not what I’m trying to do. Maureen: I love everything you just said. One thing I enjoy about going back to Instagram is seeing so many outfits I haven’t seen elsewhere — not on Pinterest or Substack. There’s so much diversity in bodies and personal styles, which can be overwhelming, but also really refreshing. Your posts have some of the best inspiration. You pull from Instagram, and when I see your Substack posts, it gives me a richer experience — seeing it outside the Instagram format. It’s nice to have different platforms to have different types of conversations. That’s really what it comes down to what kind of conversation do I want to have? How do I want to engage with my clothes? What’s the best tool or platform for that? Sienna: Exactly. Maureen: It can be kind of analytical. Sienna: Yeah, absolutely. I completely agree. Each platform allows a different kind of conversation. Even with TikTok — I love it for more in-depth styling tips. There are creators I follow who break down silhouettes and shapes, very similar to how I use YouTube. But I don’t go to TikTok for inspiration the same way I do Instagram. Maureen: Yeah. Sienna: I love that they’re all different. If they weren’t, it would be overwhelming — or boring — to see the same thing everywhere. Maureen: That’s so interesting because I don’t use TikTok, but when we link from Substack to other platforms in a specific way, I start to see the purpose of each. Sienna: Mm-hmm. Maureen: Like this morning, Devon Rule — the writer of Brand Panic — posted about Quince. I won’t go into the details, but she linked to a TikTok she made a couple years ago showing how to find 100% cashmere on eBay in the right size, shape, and so on. And I thought, “Wow, I really needed this.” That video format worked better than if it had been written. So I like having all these different platforms. I just hope they continue to be different. My worst nightmare is if they all start to look the same. Sienna: Yeah, exactly. I totally agree. Maureen: I love having this conversation, and I hope it’s helpful for listeners. So many people on Substack — including us — are both writing and consuming other people’s content. It feels important to talk about how we’re engaging with the platform. Sienna: Mm-hmm. Maureen: There’s a smaller gap between creator and audience on Substack — at least right now. I don’t have sponsors, I don’t do ad reads. I’m just someone who wants to talk about style. I show my actual clothes. So it’s worth discussing how we’re experiencing the platform — because we’re all in it together, watching it evolve. I don’t know what you think about that. Sienna: It genuinely feels like a community of people I’m making friends with. That’s what Substack feels like for me. When I post, I’m not thinking about broadcasting to an audience. I’m thinking, “I’m putting this out there,” and when comments come in, it’s a conversation. I’ve never built a big platform on Instagram or TikTok, but Substack just feels different. And I really hope it stays that way. Maureen: I keep wanting to make that disclaimer too, but then I remind myself to just enjoy what’s working right now and deal with the rest later. Sienna: Exactly. Maureen: I hope that by having real conversations and continuing to comment and engage, we can build some kind of resilience — something that lasts even if the platform changes. That we can keep creating what we want to experience. I’m realistic that some things will be out of our control. Sienna: Yeah. Maureen: Okay, let’s shift and talk more specifically about your personal style. I like to ask every guest a tricky question: How do you decide what to buy and where? I know we talked about having the pieces but struggling to wear them — but what about the other side? How do you decide what not to buy? Sienna: That’s such a good question. For me, that’s changed a lot over the past few years. And there are still habits I fall into sometimes. Once I became an adult and had to dress for real things — like conferences — my shopping started revolving around specific events. I don’t naturally gravitate toward professional styles, so I’d go shopping last-minute before a trade show or a vacation and pick clothes that were my idea of what I “should” wear. Not what I wanted to wear. That led to a closet full of things I didn’t love. Often physically uncomfortable because I’d tell myself, “It’s just for one night.” So the first change I made was to stop panic-buying. I try to avoid thinking of clothes as single-use for a specific situation. I now look at my wardrobe holistically. If I want something new, I think about what I already have — what it pairs with. I read somewhere that if you love a piece but need to buy three other things to wear it, it probably doesn’t fit your closet. That stuck with me. The other big change is how I prioritize how I feel — physically and emotionally — when I choose what to wear or buy. I have almost no tolerance for uncomfortable clothes anymore. Something shifted when I turned 35. I decided I’m not wearing tight pants or tight shirts. I just can’t do it. That’s made me pickier. If I try something on and it doesn’t feel good, I don’t buy it. That’s helped a lot with getting dressed in the morning. I don’t have a set process, but I’ve noticed the first thing I think is: how do I feel? Am I bloated? Do I want to be in sweatpants? Okay — I’ll grab my most comfortable jeans. I start with how I feel and build from there. Now that I’ve been doing that for a while and building a closet around it, I realize I actually have outfits for things I used to panic-shop for. I feel like myself, I’m comfortable and confident, and I probably show up better because of it. Maureen: I love that, and I love how it’s changed your relationship with your wardrobe. I’d love to get more specific — are there any garments you’ve bought recently with that mindset that felt distinctly different from your old habits? Sienna: Definitely. Right now I’m wearing trousers, not jeans — which is kind of shocking for me. I’m also working hard to let go of the number on the label and focus on how clothes feel. I used to buy the smallest size I could physically fit into because I thought that meant it fit. Now, I’ll try something on, like these pants — I tried a size down and yeah, they closed. But I thought, “If I have a big meal, they’ll get tight. That’s annoying.” So I sized up. I was lucky I had that option — that’s not always the case — but I did, and now I want to wear these pants every day. I like how they look and they’re comfortable. That shift is showing up in all my recent purchases. I used to own pieces I liked the look of, but when it came time to wear them, I’d think, “I don’t want to be squeezed into that all day.” So I wouldn’t wear them. They’d just sit in my closet. Now, comfort is a non-negotiable, and that’s made a huge difference. Maureen: I appreciate you sharing that. There’s such a pervasive idea that if you can size down, you should. Sienna: Totally. Maureen: I’ve had that happen recently — trying something on and thinking, “This fits.” Then someone says, “Oh, you could size down.” I don’t think they mean anything by it, but it still reinforces that mindset. Sienna: Yeah! Maureen: We can wear whatever size we want, and just because something fits smaller doesn’t mean it’s the right fit. I was looking at a picture of myself in my favorite jeans and heard that voice in my head say, “They look kind of big. Is that flattering?” That voice is still there. But I’ve made a choice — I prioritize my physical comfort. If that means my pants aren’t skin-tight, so be it. I’d rather someone think they’re too big than feel miserable all day. Sienna: Exactly. There’s no right or wrong. You just make the choice that works for you. I’ve also had to stop comparing how something looks on the model online versus how it fits me. Maureen: Yes! Sienna: Straight-leg jeans are a great example. I’d buy a pair marketed as straight-leg, put them on, and think, “This feels like a skinny jean.” The look just wasn’t there. It’s the same with sizing up — maybe it doesn’t look like it was “meant” to, but maybe I prefer that relaxed, effortless vibe. I’ve started thinking: just because a brand shows it a certain way doesn’t mean I have to wear it that way. I get to choose what works for me. That’s easier said than done, though. Maureen: Yeah, we’re all works in progress. I had a question earlier, but I lost it — maybe it’ll come back. Sienna: It’ll come back. Maureen: Let’s talk about your style evolution. Have you had any memorable phases? Sienna: I think so. I’ve always liked getting dressed and playing with style. Not necessarily fashion — I don’t follow designers closely or always keep up with trends. But as a kid, I’d change outfits three times a day. I’d say, “Now I feel like this,” and go change again. That’s always been me. In high school, music became a big influence. Both of my parents were musicians, and my brother is one now. A lot of my friends were in bands — let’s call it “light metal” — and I went through a kind of alternative phase. Not full goth or emo, but I wore black cargo pants with strings and wide legs — I wish I still had them. They had that one “weird” detail, which I still love today. I don’t like bright colors or patterns, but I like clothes with interesting elements. That’s still my style now — just a little more subtle. The older I get, the more I try to bring that back in. I lost it a bit in my twenties, maybe trying to fit in. Now I’m consciously reclaiming it — whether it’s a studded belt or just a vibe. My style is more muted, but the essence is still there. Maureen: I’d love to hear more about how you’ve approached bringing your full self and style into workwear. How do you balance that now? Sienna: Great question. First, I’ll say I’m fortunate — I work in a casual environment. I can wear jeans and a T-shirt every day and it’s totally fine, so this doesn’t come up daily, which I actually really like. But sometimes I have professional events — and those are my least favorite. I’d describe my style as casual, so it always feels like I have to stray from my comfort zone. What I’ve started doing is thinking in terms of silhouette: what shapes and proportions do I like?

This week’s guest is Talía Cu , writer of Latin Zine by Talía Cu and veteran fashion journalist. She’s focused on introducing the world to cool designers and pieces with soul, sourced from the diverse cultures within Latin America. In our episode, we cover everything from her perspective on Latin American fashion’s influence on the global style scene, to how she personally decides what to buy and wear. Enjoy! Episode Transcript This transcript has been edited for clarity. You're listening to Intuitive Style , where we believe that everyone has style. In conversation with fantastic guests, we explore how to tap into our style intuition so that we can dress authentically and live fully. Today's guest is Talía Cu , writer of Latin Zine. Talia is a Mexican fashion journalist who has worked for esteemed publications including Vogue Mexico and Latin America. As a fashion illustrator for luxury brands like Fendi and Bumble, she is currently a cool hunter of Latin American brands. Her Substack newsletter showcases her exquisite eye for emerging talent, hidden gems, and one-of-a-kind artisanal fashion. Talia, welcome to the show. Talía: Thank you, I'm really excited because it's my first podcast interview in English. Maureen: I'm sure it's going to be fantastic. Thank you for trusting me with this process. I'm excited to talk with you and learn more about you, your experience, and your personal style. For anyone who hasn't interacted with Latin Zine yet, would you share a bit more about your column? Talía: Of course. Latin Zine by Talía Cu is a newsletter dedicated to understanding fashion from a Latin American perspective. It's a place to discover new fashion stories and hidden gems—brands you don't typically see in mainstream media. Maureen: I love that your work introduces us to new brands. Many people are interested in connecting to style on a personal level. Could you speak more to the global impact of Latin American brands? How is Latin American fashion shaping global style trends? Talía: I wrote about this in the beginning of my newsletter. I don’t like to generalize Latin America because each country is so different. Designers often have to compensate for things like lack of materials, so they create amazing work with what's available. The whole region has a wonderful creative spirit. Globally, there's growing appreciation for artisanal pieces and sustainable practices, and Latin America is at the forefront of that. Maureen: I was hoping to talk more about sustainability. You write about fashion discovery, which can lead to shopping. But how do we appreciate and engage with fashion without overconsuming? Talía: That’s a big reason I created the newsletter. I found so many beautiful things and wanted to collect them somewhere. I do write about shopping, but I also share designers’ stories so there's more context to what you’re purchasing. I like to buy directly from designers or brands I've followed for a while and believe in their methods or practices. I usually don’t buy on impulse. I think carefully and sometimes wait for the right piece that resonates with me. I’m also building a small archive of Latin American designers—pieces I may not wear daily but that are meaningful or significant. Maureen: Even though your column isn’t personal style, or would you describe it that way? Talía: Not exactly, but I do look at Latin American fashion from my own point of view. It’s about the people I meet, the things that catch my eye, and what I discover. I've been covering Latin American fashion for years, but I’m always finding new designers and stories, and I share them as I go. Maureen: I love the way you balance discovery and perspective without it becoming strictly personal style. There's a clear intentionality and playfulness to your work. Let’s talk a bit about your own personal style. I'm interested in why people wear what they wear—how do you decide what to buy and wear, especially since you’re constantly seeing cool brands? Talía: Everything for me is intuitive. When I go into a shop, something needs to grab my attention—maybe it’s a color or pattern. I also care about the stories behind the pieces. Like, if I know a brand has an interesting upcycling process, I want something from them. One of my favorite things is when someone compliments a piece and I get to tell them it’s from a Costa Rican designer who upcycles leather. Fashion becomes a conversation. Maureen: That’s beautiful. Your clothing becomes a part of your story and a way to engage with others. Talía: Yes, I love talking about it. Maureen: Okay, this is something I struggle with. There's a brand called Wray NYC that’s size-inclusive and editorial, and they’re going out of business. My first instinct was to buy everything. How do you handle moments like that—when you want to support a brand but also make sure what you buy is actually useful or wearable? Talía: I’d say I have two categories: pieces I wear daily and curated archive pieces I only wear on special occasions. For daily wear, I buy things like printed mesh tops from Colombian brands that I wear often. I try to balance both—special pieces and practical items. Maureen: That’s a cool way to approach shopping. I always feel like something has to be utilitarian for me to want to buy it. But fashion can also be conceptual or artistic. Talía: Exactly. Maureen: Let’s talk about how body awareness influences the way you dress. Are there certain textures, fits, or styles you gravitate toward based on how they make you feel? Talía: Yes, especially as a woman with a larger chest, I notice many Latin American designers don’t make tops that fit me well. The models they show often have smaller chests, and I wonder how the clothes would actually look on me. That’s why I don’t love shopping online—I need to try things on. I also have PCOS, and for a while, my weight was fluctuating, which made me more self-aware. During that time, I started wearing more pastels. I think it made me feel soft and loving toward myself. I also have PCOS, and for a while, my weight was fluctuating, which made me more self-aware. During that time, I started wearing more pastels. I think it made me feel soft and loving toward myself. Maureen: That’s really beautiful. I've gone through body changes too, and it’s true—our relationship with clothing can shift with our relationship to our bodies. Some silhouettes I used to love just don’t work for me anymore, and that’s okay. Talía: Yes, I'm 35, and I’ve been thinking about how many independent designers seem to focus more on people in their twenties. I love what they create, but sometimes I see things like mini skirts and wonder—can I still wear that? Even if it’s not super short, I still question if I’ve passed the age for it, or if I’m just overthinking. I don’t feel as comfortable in those pieces as I did in my twenties, and I’m still processing what that means for me. Maureen: Can I ask—have you tried one on? Talía: Yes. Maureen: How did you feel? Talía: I felt a bit uncomfortable. I kept wondering if I was showing too much leg. Maureen: I totally get that. I’m all about self-compassion, so if that’s how you feel, that’s okay. You don’t need to rush into anything. I’ve been thinking about this too. I’m almost 30, so I feel like I could still get away with a mini skirt, but I’m married and live in the suburbs, and the idea just doesn’t appeal to me. I’d rather wear shorts—they’re more comfortable, and I don’t have to worry about anything riding up or flashing someone. But I think if wearing one feels authentic to you, go for it. And if it doesn’t, that’s okay too. Talía: Exactly. That’s true. Maureen: That’s where I’m at with it. Talía: I’d love to wear tights underneath, but it’s so warm where I live, so that’s not really an option. Maybe wearing shorts underneath would make me feel more comfortable. I hadn’t thought of that. Maureen: Yeah, I think a little bike short could help. Talía: Yeah, maybe. Maureen: Let’s go back to your style evolution. Have you had any memorable phases? Talía: When I was 19, I was obsessed with collecting earrings. There was a shop in my hometown that sold beads from around the world, and I was constantly buying jewelry. Then I went through a phase of buying weird tights online from UK brands—like ones with tattoo prints. In my early 20s, I wore a lot of pink and fuchsia, but a boy I liked told me it looked childish, so I switched to wearing black. I’m sad I let that influence me. Now, I’m really into rings, brooches, and necklaces. My hair also affects my style—since changing it recently, some things don’t look the same on me. Maureen: Yeah, for people listening, how would you describe your current hairstyle? It’s very cool. Talía: It's like half blonde and half copper. Maureen: And what was your most recent hairstyle before this? Talía: I tried a bit of pink with brunette. I've always had really dark eyebrows, that's my natural color. I started with a little pink and then decided I wanted something completely different. This is probably the most drastic change I’ve had. Maureen: I love that. As you said earlier, when I asked how you decide what to buy or wear, it sounds like you have such an intuitive approach. You're in your heart rather than your head when making choices. As someone super analytical, I tend to overthink everything. How do you stay light and in tune with yourself when shopping or deciding on hair and accessories? Talía: I wouldn’t say it’s always practical. My best friend gets texts from me at least once a month saying I don’t have anything to wear with something I just bought. She always says, “You need a leather jacket.” I do buy basics for function, but I’m not great with practicality. Maureen: So you're more of a magpie—you go for color, print, and shiny pieces. Talía: Yes. I’m very selective with what I buy and like, but then I have to think about the practical side. There’s a Mexican brand that sells basics like jeans and tank tops. I go to them when I need staples. But usually, I buy something because it grabs my attention—like pants I just feel I need in my closet. I’ll figure out how to wear them later. Maureen: What’s your process for getting dressed? Talía: For my day-to-day, I teach fashion journalism, so I have certain outfits for school—comfortable pieces like jeans or trousers. Then I have event outfits. There are also those last-minute combinations that surprisingly work. Day to day, I usually repeat outfits I know work well together. Maureen: So you have uniforms and go-to’s that just happen to be more expressive than my jeans-and-T-shirt look. Talía: Maybe. Maureen: What’s exciting you in fashion today? Talía: I’m really excited that people are finding my newsletter and open to discovering designers outside the norm. Some people send me pictures saying they bought from a brand I featured. I love that. I never expected to have that kind of reach. Seeing people find and love these brands as much as I do is amazing. I’m excited about the power of sharing stories, and how Substack is connecting us globally. Maureen: Absolutely. From my perspective as an American, it feels like the perfect time to support designers outside the U.S., not out of a lack of patriotism, but out of respect and fairness. I’m excited by your work because it gives access to so many brands I wouldn’t have otherwise discovered. I haven’t bought anything yet—last month’s budget was tight—but now when I look for a piece of jewelry or a statement item, I have this whole new resource. Talía: Yes. That’s what excites me too. People in the U.S. are visiting designers in Mexico City or purchasing from them, and they’re getting pieces that are real conversation starters. You get to wear something unique, and when someone asks about it, you can share the story behind the brand—their process, their mission. That kind of storytelling fuels me. Maureen: That ties so beautifully back to the idea of clothing as conversation. So what advice would you give to someone trying to build a wardrobe that feels intuitive and authentic? Talía: Work on tuning into your intuition—it’s difficult, but worth it. I’ve only recently learned to listen to mine. Also, research the brand and ask questions. We’re used to buying things just because they look nice, but it’s more meaningful to learn about who made it, how it was made, and why. You gain context and maybe even learn something fascinating about a designer’s process. Maureen: Can you share a recent example of a piece you bought or considered because the process or story behind it was special? Talía: There’s a bag brand I’ll be sharing soon that’s based in a smaller state in Mexico. They make bags from leather scraps. It’s two women running the brand, and they’re one of the few fashion brands in that state. I’ve followed them for a few years and noticed their designs evolving. Now I feel more drawn to purchasing from them. I think they’re finding their voice, and I’d love to own something from this moment in their journey. Maureen: I love that. We can follow a brand over time and appreciate them without needing to buy immediately. We can grow with them, see where they go, and decide if it resonates later. That’s such a beautiful example of a slow fashion mindset. Talía: Yes, of course. Bringing awareness to these designers, even without buying right away, is valuable. Sharing them with others still makes a difference. Maureen: Absolutely. Thank you. This was really fun. Where can listeners find you? Talía: Thank you, Maureen. It was so fun talking to you—I love your perspective on fashion and style. You can find me on my Substack at Talía Cu and on Instagram @taliacu . Maureen: We’ll include the links in the show notes. Thank you so much for sharing your expertise and knowledge of Latin fashion. I can’t wait to keep following your posts and eventually shop from these brands. Thanks for coming on. Talía: Thank you, Maureen. Get full access to Intuitive Style at maureenwelton.substack.com/subscribe

Did you know new episodes of Intuitive Style drop weekly on Fridays? Subscribe so you don’t miss Fanny Adams , Jennifer Cook and more special guests in upcoming weeks! Today’s guest is Emily Grady Dodge , writer of Just For Fun . Emily shares exactly how she found THE pants that made the rest of her wardrobe come together, how she finds contentment with her clothes, and her number one tip for anyone struggling with their style. Even though this was our first time meeting , I felt like we’ve known each other all along. Enjoy! Episode Transcript This transcript has been edited for clarity. You're listening to Intuitive Style , where we believe that everyone has style. I’m Maureen Welton. In conversation with fantastic guests, we explore how to tap into our style intuition so that we can dress authentically and live fully. Today's guest is Emily Grady-Dodge from Just For Fun. She shares about her capsule wardrobe, asks the question, what are you wearing? And shares about how she is generally satisfied with less but better. We love her minimal aesthetic, dry humor, and real life realness. Emily, welcome to the pod. Emily: Thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited. Maureen: I'm so happy to meet you. I know that we've virtually met through our writing, but it's nice to actually hear your voice and get to know you a little better. Emily: Oh, thank you. Maureen: For anyone who hasn't read your Substack column yet, can you describe what Just For Fun is all about? Emily: Yeah, so I started it a little over a year ago and did not think I would be writing about fashion at all. I thought it would just be more general like lifestyle and motherhood. About two weeks after I wrote the first post, I, for totally separate reasons, decided to jump on the Rule of Five challenge. And then my whole life just sort of funneled itself into caring a lot about clothing again. Naturally, my Substack just followed suit and I started writing about that. I was having a fun time writing about what I'm wearing, what I was planning on buying, because it was such a limited shopping year for me that everything felt really high stakes. I took every purchase very seriously—except for one, which I did very candidly write about. Just For Fun kind of naturally evolved to be this place where, literally, it's the title. It is just for fun. I'm not trying to make a career out of it. It's an outlet for me. It's something creative to do in my spare time. I do it from my phone. It's very low stakes, but I've had the best time connecting with people in this sort of niche community of like-minded individuals. We’re trying to figure out what we’re wearing to work, to date nights, to the mall with friends. How are we making choices that feel good and that we’re not regretting two months later? That was always a problem for me in the past. But anyway, long story short, Just For Fun is really about what I'm buying, what I’m really wearing—I’m super honest, big outfit repeater. I love outfit repeating. It's not something to be ashamed about. I just lay it all out there, and it's been interesting. It's very cathartic. Maureen: Yeah, I love that. It’s really fun to read your posts, and I always love your outfit pictures too. They always look really polished, but at the same time, they feel very real. Your descriptions go into the things you might not see in the image. For anyone who isn't familiar with the Rule of Five, could you share a little bit about what that is and why you were drawn to it? Emily: Yeah, so admittedly, I've never been very driven by sustainability. It's just not something that I feel overly concerned about mainly because I do have like a very naturally small footprint life like Uh, I moved to Jersey city from Brooklyn a few years ago, but I didn't have a car for fifteen years. I do. We do have one car now. Um, we live in an apartment. I have a really small closet with very limited space and just kind of naturally have to have a small wardrobe. Um, so my life choices were never driven by any like, oh, I really, really want to be sustainable. They just happened to be in line with that. Rule of five is very much rooted in sustainability. It came about from a study that said, if you're in this income bracket, you need to slow your roll. People who, in this bracket, if they shifted to only buying five items of clothing a year, we would fix this massive landfill problem that we have with clothing being thrown out at this record pace. And all of the ripple effects that are terrible for the environment because of that. That is not why I jumped on the rule of five bandwagon. I wish I could say that it was. But it wasn't. I think it's great that it exists for that. But for me, it was like, okay, I just finished the year 2023 of shopping. I kept track of all my purchases. I bought, I think, forty-seven things. By the end of the year, I was already selling half of it on Poshmark or the RealReal or donating it because I didn't even have the bandwidth to resell it. And just really questioning, like, what am I doing? Why do I keep making these terrible choices that even two days later after taking the price tag off, I'm like, did I have amnesia? Why did I buy that? What was going on in my head? Like, this doesn't make sense. So I saw the framework of buy five things new in one year. Renting is okay. Up to four items of secondhand clothing. And that all just felt like really safe to me. I needed somebody else to give me that boundary and to commit myself to it. When I commit to something, I am like a dog with a bone. I knew that I would do it. Like I knew I would stay the course. Trying [Rule of Five] really changed everything for me. It was such a year of pausing, of reflecting, of figuring out this root cause of why I kept making terrible choices. Um, and how to, I don't think you can ever be perfect or ever completely stop that from happening, but like how to have a better success rate with shopping moving forward. Um, and it was really, really huge for me and I loved writing about it and I loved, um, kind of that safety net when the year ended, I was a little. A little nervous, but also I felt like I was in such a good place, um, in my own head about what I wanted, what my gaps were. What vibe I want out of my wardrobe, how I want to feel when I'm wearing clothes, um, what length pants feel good, um, just all of these things that back in 2023, I was floundering and just grasping at straws and it wasn't working. There's a great Substack called Rule of Five by the woman who sort of outlined this whole idea. Her name's Tiffanie Darke . I highly recommend checking that out. My reasons of approaching it were a little different than the intent, I think. Maureen: That's so profound though, that idea that there's an intrinsic benefit to consuming less, or there can be. Emily: Right. Maureen: Personally, I would love to see people consuming less and be happy with fewer things because that is sustainable, but I love when we can exemplify that wanting less and being satisfied with less isn't a bad thing and it's actually freeing and helpful. And fun in its own way. Maybe could you speak a little bit more to how—or any moments in time when you realized like, oh, this is really good for me? This is really helping my style or helping me decide what I actually want? Emily: Yeah, this is gonna sound a little woo-woo, but bear with me. A few years ago, I saw someone and I loved her outfit, and I had this epiphany where I felt like this woman was 100% operating from a place of 'I am beautiful.' I could tell that the way she was dressed, she felt that way about herself. At that time in my life, I was postpartum, none of my clothes fit, I had a small wardrobe but didn’t love what I had. It struck me that I was not making purchases from a place of believing anything positive about myself. If you don't see yourself in a positive light, any clothing purchase is just a Band-Aid on a bullet wound. Like it's not going to get the job done and you're just scrambling for something that's going to make you feel better. But that is not what's going to make you feel better. The answer is not in clothing. When I had this moment of seeing this woman, and just the way she carried herself and what she was wearing. I thought I really need to work on myself and I'm not going to let myself shop until I believe I'm beautiful and worthy of having a wardrobe that reflects that. And that was hard for me at first. Like I was like, oof, like that feels big. That feels scary. That feels like, no, let me just keep shopping at J.Crew when they have a 40% off sale. I got to this place where I was like, if I believed I was beautiful, what would I buy? And it was a really different answer than what I was just kind of being drawn to buying without doing that train of thought. And I bought this pair of pants, and I wrote about this when I did a recent post about workwear. I bought this pair of pants on the RealReal, and when I put them on, I was like, holy, can I swear? If I believed I was beautiful, what would I buy? Maureen: Yeah, go for it. Emily: I was like, holy s**t. Like, where have these pants been all my life? I put them on and I was like, bury me in these pants. This is how I wanna feel all the time. This is my new metric. If what I’m putting on doesn’t make me feel like this, then I’m not putting it on. So if that means wearing the same outfit to every single work function, that’s what I’m going to do. Honestly, I did that. Like, I was wearing the same... I’ve worn the same pair of pants to everything. It’s crazy. And my boss, who has a very good eye for design, will be like, oh, I love those pants. And I just laughed at myself because I’m like, I’ve worn them five times in the last five times. You also told me that you loved them. Um, but I just had this epiphany with these pants. They had a really interesting cut. Um, not anything that I had worn before. I felt like they were really flattering. They were really comfortable. Um, and I know flattering has become sort of a... hard to talk about complicated word. I still, you know, maybe flattering isn’t the right word, but I do like when clothes are flattering, I’ll just say it. Maureen: Can I just put it out there? Me too. Me too. This is a safe space. Like, we, honestly, to me, intuitive style is non-judgmental. So that doesn’t mean that we try not to be flattering or that we try to be unflattering or that we— it’s not like we need to abolish the word flattering entirely. It’s like whatever we bring that day, that moment, that minute. We, we acknowledge that feeling or whatever, however our head is at and we just say, that’s okay. That’s okay. It’s a nonjudgmental approach, rather than a specifically defined thing. So I just wanted to clarify that. Emily: And I think also, thank you for saying that because sometimes I need to hear someone else say it. Um, I think also flattering can carry this other part, which is when you’re out in the world, you don’t feel like you have to adjust your own body. Like you don’t have to suck in. You don’t have to feel like, oh, I can only stand like that, you know, this way for this to look good or, oh, you know, a lot of work events I go to, there’s photographers there because they’re taking candid pictures of the event to, you know, post online later. And it’s like, oh, there’s a photographer over there. Let me suck in. I think when you feel like your clothes are holding you and they’re comfortable and you can move and live your life and like forget that you’re even wearing them. Instead of having to like contort yourself to it, it’s, it’s really the unlock. Like I hate being somewhere where I’m uncomfortable or I’m like, you know, having to readjust or tuck in or... So that’s another thing is that, you know, I really focused on clothing that I could just live my life in that I have this whole list of no’s. Like, when I shop and it’s like, does it have to be tucked in in a specific way? If it does, no. Like, I’m not doing that. I’m not buying a shirt that can only—that has to be re-tucked in every time I pee. I pee all the time. I can’t be redoing my whole outfit every time. Um, so, you know, there’s a lot that goes into your clothing choices that might not just be how they look, but how they operate in your day-to-day too. But now I’m forgetting your original question. Maybe... Maureen: Oh... Emily: I answered it. Maybe I didn’t. But those pants, those pants were like a point for me because after that, I really did. I was doing Rule of Five. Um, so that was helping, but even I think without that, I think my shopping, um, like frequency would have slowed down because I’m just not going to find that many things that make me feel that way. And having that metric, it’s like, well, you know... And I, my mom and I have this conversation all the time where she’s like, I don’t know what to buy. I go into the, you know, Ann Taylor and I hate it all. Like, I want to buy something. I want to spend money and I can't find anything I like. And I do identify with that to a certain extent where it's like... You know, I will think in my head, like, I really, I have this denim shirt from The Gap that's years old and I freaking love it. And every time I wear it, I'm just like, God, I love this shirt. Like, I love this shirt. I wore it yesterday, actually. Every time I wear it, I'm like, what can I get that is going to give me the same feeling as this shirt? Like, I can't just have one shirt that I feel this way about. So then I'll be like, Ooh, maybe I want a white denim shirt. So then I go hunting for this thing that I haven't seen on like reverse-engineering my own wishlist. Oh, I want a white denim shirt, but... You know, everything I find online, I'm like, I don't like the pocket size or whatever, you know, I'm very nitpicky. But I, I think having those, those things in place do kind of keep you from going off the rails. It's like a built-in boundary. Maureen: I, this is so profound. And the reason I say that is like, I so relate. So first of all, I feel the same way when I shop. Sometimes I really want something and then I'm like, I know that it's not going to level up to what I already own, so... But what I'm hearing in this is different from the kind of attitude of everything in my wardrobe needs to be perfect, right? And I don't think it's that. It's something else. What is this instead? What is this feeling of rightness? Can you describe that in any way? Or like, how do we explain this idea? Emily: Yeah, I think, you know, the three-word exercise that's so popular, I kind of tried to do that for myself and I don't know if I really encapsulated my vibe down to three words, but one of them was comfortable. And I think like, for me, it doesn't have to be the perfect thing. As long as I feel comfortable in it I'm going to feel so much more confident living my life in that piece of clothing. The fact of the matter is we have to wear clothes. There's no…unless you go live on a nudist colony. Maureen: Unlikely. Emily: There's no choice. We have to wear clothes. And so if I have to wear something, like I need it to be comfortable. I need it to be machine washable. I need it to be, um, something that fits in with my lifestyle of a three and a six-year-old. Like, I can't be like, oh, don't touch me because I don't catch up on my pants, you know? Um, so for me, like, I've found sort of tremendous, um, relief in finding other people whose style I really admire who don't look ultra polished all the time that I still think like, wow, that person looks really cool but they also look really comfortable and like, kind of utilitarian and like they could go grocery shopping in this and it wouldn't be ridiculous or go run an errand and it wouldn't look insane. No, I'm in New York City. I live in Jersey City, but I'm in Manhattan all the time. I was in Manhattan earlier today and I saw a lot of, I was people-watching as I was walking around and I saw some really interesting outfits. Um, so not to say that you can't wear something interesting and go to CVS, because certainly you can. [but] When I see people whose style it's like, oh, they're just wearing a button-down and jeans and like flip-flops, but they look really cool. That can be fashionable too. Like I was listening to the podcast Fashion People this morning. And they were talking about all of the creative directors shifting from all of the different design houses. And I don't follow any of that. Like, I don't, I don't know any of that. And it kind of crossed my mind this. Analogy of, um. Like I'm not religious, but I celebrate Christmas. So like I'm a, I'm a secular fashionista. Like… I don't follow the high-fashion news, but I love fashion Substack and I love certain influencers on Instagram. Not all of them, but there's a few that I really like following. And I think the common theme is that everyone that I really admire and really think looks cool and inspiring or it makes me think like, oh, I should try that. I've never worn a scarf like that before or I've never wrapped a t-shirt around my waist and worn it like a belt. Like, I'm going to try that. They all have this through line of being really, yeah, utilitarian. Like this, Emily: these clothes make sense for my life and I feel good in them. And I've never focused on being like a hot person, like that's never been my objective or aspiration, but when I'm in something that I feel really comfortable lately, and maybe it's 'cause I'm almost forty and I'm like feeling myself and I'm like, I felt kind of hot, like... Maureen: Wow. Emily: I feel like I'm in my body. I feel comfortable. I'm like, is this, what is this? What is this feeling? Like, I feel like I'm a grown woman who's, you know, getting s**t done and like wearing a gold necklace and like this thing, which I freaking love. Maureen: It's cool. Emily: That's like the fake piercing. Maureen: It's cool. I like that. Emily: My, um, now I can't put it back on, but this is like my Dumbo feather, you know, like how he needs his feather to think he can fly. Like when I put this on, I'm like, it doesn't matter what else I'm wearing. Like literally it doesn't matter because this thing makes me feel cool. Maureen: I love that so much. Emily: Yeah, my closet is tiny but mighty and the things that I love to wear are like not maybe ultra exciting. It's like, yeah, that Gap denim button down that was like, you know, $30 or something, um, is one of my favorite things to wear and I wear it at least once a week. Maureen: So going back to this idea of shopping for these things that are just top tier without being perfect, how do you, maybe can you speak about those, those perfect those ideal pants that you have, like, how did you know that they were worth buying online? Sometimes that can be really daunting to do or it doesn't work out. How did you know to click buy? Emily: I had a lot of criteria when I was looking for those pants because I was starting my workwear collection from scratch at that point, um, I had been relying on Rent the Runway for workwear for years and was sick of it. I still love Rent the Runway. I'm like a huge fan, but I just was tired of the. The like weekly selecting new stuff. I was burnt out. So this was back in 2023. I said, you know, I'm going to get this right. Like, I'm going to figure out what I want. And I knew, you know, I need a pair of black pants. That's what I'm going to start with. And, um, I'm going to kind of build everything out from there once I have that figured out. And I take public transit, so I didn't want anything that would even be close to the ground. So I was like, okay, it needs to be ankle length. Um, I'm allergic to animal fiber. A lot of really high ends were like. Well cut pants like Theory or Events or like the kind of usual suspects for workwear they're always wool. I mean, they look beautiful. I'm sure it's, they last forever an

Sushmita and I cover the identity politics of slow fashion, unequal access to ethically made clothing, and how Sushmita is ready to be gentler with herself. Episode Transcript This transcript has been edited for clarity. You're listening to Intuitive Style , where we believe everyone has style. In conversation with fantastic guests, we explore how to tap into our style intuition so that we can dress authentically and live fully. Today's guest, Sushmita , is the writer and artist behind Ethical Fat Fashion . She's well known for her size-inclusive ethical fashion brand directory, zines, and fashion/political commentary. Welcome to the show, Sushmita ! Sushmita: Thanks, Maureen. It's so nice! Maureen: Yay! Yes, I'm so happy that you decided to come on. To kick things off, I love the mission behind your newsletter, Ethical Fat Fashion . For anyone unfamiliar, can you share what EFF is all about? Sushmita: Yeah, of course. I mean, it's been a few years, and I'm still figuring it out, but Ethical Fat Fashion started off as a brand directory. This was 2021, 2022. I was sourcing size-inclusive and size-diverse brands—brands that started from a 2X or a US 20. From there, I switched to Patreon and started making digital zines, exploring a whole host of different issues. I was talking about body image, movie reviews—anything and everything I wanted to put in there, I did. That eventually brought me to Substack last year. I wanted something more frequent. The zines were seasonal, but now I post every single week, and the content changes all the time. The thread running through it is the idea of ethical fashion, but I’m looking at it from different angles—especially how our bodies and fashion connect, including how we view ourselves and how that affects how we dress. Maureen: Yeah, absolutely. I think it’s so true. And I certainly experience this as a writer on Substack myself—it can be hard to pin down into one thing. But that can also be the fun of it! We're allowed to explore different aspects of who we are and of a particular topic, and I think you manage that really well. In one of your more recent posts, you compared slow fashion to diet culture (aware of Virginia Sole-Smith ), which really resonated with me—especially how you acknowledge the reality that participating in slow fashion has been elevated to a high moral status while simultaneously excluding so many people, particularly fat people. What compelled you to write this post at this time? Sushmita: These are really scary posts to put on the internet—especially in leftist spaces, where everybody is aiming for this moral purity. If you add any kind of complexity, you can become a target. I was scared to write about it, but I think Substack allows for long-form content rather than just 140 characters or less. It lets us balance perspectives. Hopefully, I was able to separate the idea of fashion justice from what we see as "sustainability" or "slow fashion" as a brand or an identity—because those are two very different things. Fashion justice is about better conditions for garment workers and ensuring they have living wages. I don’t think anyone is against that. I really don’t. But the means to achieve that—the current slow fashion or ethical fashion movement—has such a heavy focus on consumerism. It’s become identity-focused rather than actually looking at how we can achieve that outcome. I wrote this post after a series of revelations over the last couple of years. I started to feel more separated from the narratives that kept being repeated on the internet. One of the big shifts for me was material envy, which I talk about a lot. I saw someone very prominent in the space admit how much they owned, and I realized I owned maybe a quarter of that. The difference between our wardrobes was startling, and I had this feeling inside me—why can’t I have that abundance? Why am I not deserving of beautiful clothes? Another shift was recognizing the difference between identity and outcome. We're not really having conversations about how we can help garment workers. And I include myself in this—we, as consumers, have taken over the conversation. It’s almost a saviorism narrative: We in the Global North are going to help these poor garment workers. Maureen: Yeah, yeah. Sushmita: But the reality is that garment workers are already trying their absolute hardest to advocate for themselves. That’s why trade unions exist. Many of them are dealing with governments that, even if they have laws in place to protect workers—especially women—those laws aren’t effective. Sexual harassment in factories is a huge issue, and we, as consumers, cannot fix that just by buying differently. We are not in the factories. We cannot protect these workers simply through buying differently. Maureen: I'm getting chills. Sushmita: Yeah. Maureen: I so agree. I did not mean to cut you off, though! Sushmita: No, no, it’s totally fine. It’s a conversation! But a lot of these things I haven’t said out loud before, so I’m still forming these thoughts as I speak. I just feel like we’ve created this belief that we can buy our way into saving garment workers. And I don’t connect with that narrative anymore. Instead, I’m thinking about what actions we can take beyond consumerism to support garment workers. One thing that’s been on my mind is that, due to the new [United States] administration, one of the key trade alliances in Bangladesh, Awaj Foundation , lost 20 to 30% of their funding. We could directly give them money. That would be more powerful than tweeting or posting online, shaming other people about their consumerism. Maureen: Oh my gosh. Yes. Yes. We’re so aligned, and this is part of the reason I wanted to have you on the show right now. I’ve been a consumer of slow fashion content for a long time, and I think the early voices in this space raised important issues. They brought awareness to things people didn’t know about. And to their credit, a lot of work has gone into that awareness—helping us be more conscious of what we buy and why. But I also think it’s gone too far, to your point. It’s become about identity rather than outcome . I would love to hear you talk more about the identity of being a "slow fashion person." Why do you think that has resonated so much with creators? Sushmita: I think it follows what we already see in leftist spaces, where our identities become the whole of us. For me, the biggest issue is this all-or-nothing thinking. Either you’re buying ethically, or you’re not. Either you’re a "reformed shopper," or you’re not. There’s no in-between. I struggled with my own consumerism because I couldn’t afford the things I wanted to buy, and I didn’t give myself any grace. I had spent years building a platform against fast fashion, and unfortunately, the majority of the fashion industry—99% of it—still operates with fast fashion tactics. Maybe not at the same production scale, but there’s still a lot of opaqueness. It’s really difficult to be a responsible consumer. And I wouldn’t allow myself to step outside of those boundaries. I had all these limitations. I still have these limitations. But I was so scared of tarnishing my identity as someone who promotes ethical fashion. And yet, the whole concept of ethical fashion is actually very, very complicated. People want you to believe that being a responsible consumer is so damn easy. It's just about, you know, choosing the right brand. And now that I've been in this space for a really long time, I’ve been contacting brands that claim to be size diverse or care about inclusivity or sustainability. There are brands that use socially audited factories and have longstanding relationships with their factories, but that doesn’t necessarily mean they pay living wages. There are small businesses that have zero relationship to their makers. I’ve reached out to them, and they’ll be like, “No, we have no idea which factory we produce at.” And there's just so much ethics-washing. There's small-business-washing as well. There are brands that are obviously a lot larger than they make themselves out to be. And it's absolutely impossible to always make the right decision when businesses themselves are not being transparent with consumers. A lot of these businesses actually say that they’re ethical or sustainable, but nobody really wants to talk about that aspect. So not only is it difficult to be responsible when it comes to not buying from 99% of fashion, but it's also difficult when you are only buying from ethical brands because ethical is not regulated. Maureen: Right. It's like the word "organic" in the United States. What does organic mean? Okay, well, organic means that it’s made out of earth-created materials. [But] organic does not mean that you don’t use pesticides. So there’s this kind of—perhaps purposeful—opaqueness around what a term means, then you don’t have to define it and you don’t have to have restrictions to work within. I also wanted to go back and validate something you said earlier, which was that writing that post was vulnerable and difficult, and I completely relate to that. I put up a post, I think around the same time that you did—like, I think it was the same week. We were just on the same wavelength. Oh no, I responded to yours. I'm so sorry. I responded to yours. Anyway, I put up a post like, There’s this narrative that it’s easy to shop ethically, and yet the reality is very far from that for so many people. Again, going back to this idea of an identity rather than an outcome. I started looking into the data around fast fashion. People say, Consumers buy sixty-eight items of clothing every year. I can’t find the statistic or the background for that. There are so many things that impact our carbon footprint to begin with. And I know the term ethical doesn’t just mean sustainability—it doesn’t just encompass green practices—but when it is coming from a sustainability perspective, there’s this idea that not buying new clothing has this tremendous impact on your carbon footprint. And I really don’t think that’s true. I think that not owning a car has a way bigger impact. And as you were saying earlier, not buying new clothing doesn’t mean that you’re actually supporting the garment workers you say you’re supporting. I try to bring an empathetic perspective to everything I do. And I think maybe we’re just feeling very overwhelmed and powerless in a lot of systems that don’t really feel like they’re working in our best interest. So we ask, “What can I personally do? Oh, well, I get dressed every day. Why don’t I control and try to live my values through that?” Which I think is great, but it’s also not the bigger picture. And for anyone who faces barriers with shopping that way, it can have a tremendously harmful effect. Like, Am I a bad person if I’m not shopping with my values? But when the companies that align with your values don’t make clothes for you, how can you reconcile that? Guest: Yeah. That’s such an important topic. You have so many good points. So I think one of the biggest things is: who is actually creating the most environmental damage? We know that individuals collectively do make an impact, but it really is the biggest companies, right? So we need to balance our energy. Yes, of course, we can make individual changes, but we also need to be putting more pressure on companies that are just getting away with damaging our planet and our futures—rather than placing it all on ourselves. Who is actually creating the most environmental damage? We know that individuals collectively do make an impact, but it really is the biggest companies, right?….We need to be putting more pressure on companies that are just getting away with damaging our planet and our futures. And I think the thing with identity is that it’s so easy to align your identity with certain behaviors when you’re in a place that makes it easy for you to do so. I could say, Hey, I don’t have a car, and I take public transport everywhere. Well, I live in the middle of Tokyo, where the public transport is amazing. But when I lived in the countryside in the UK, that was impossible. And this is a little snarky, but there are people out there leading the Target boycott when they don’t even have Targets in their country. Like, it’s so easy to say, "Boycott Target" or "I don’t shop at Target," when you don’t even have Target where you live. I get really frustrated when people place shame on others when they have access to things that make it so much easier to conform to a slow fashion or ethical fashion identity. And of course, the biggest thing is size inclusivity. It’s hard for me because I feel like I’m constantly straddling both sides of the narrative. One side says, "There are no ethical size-inclusive options," which isn’t true—that’s why I created my directories . But then the other side says, "It’s so easy to buy ethically when you’re fat," and that’s simply not true either. Yes, there are options, but they’re much more scarce than what other people have. And the main reason I created my directory was that the biggest sustainable directory out there had a plus-size section that started at an XL, but included sizes from different countries. An Australian XL, a Japanese XL, an Indian XL—these are all very different from a U.S. XL. Some of them aren’t plus-size at all. So it was impossible to find your size using one of the biggest sustainable directories. It was not plus-size friendly at all. And so, I try to hold both of those narratives: Yes, these options exist, but it’s not easy. Right. You wrote this amazing piece about shame. Maureen: Yeah, everything’s about shame. Sushmita: And one of the things I was thinking is, shame does work—but only for people who have already taken on that identity and internalized it. Fast fashion consumption—again, I don’t know about that sixty-eight-garment statistic, I couldn’t find the original source either—but I do know that fast fashion and ultra-fast fashion overconsumption is an issue. But who is internalizing that shame? It’s a small group of people who are taking on the burden of individual responsibility, feeling the heaviness, shame, and guilt for the collective consumption. Meanwhile, the people actually overconsuming don’t care about these ethical fashion narratives. If anything, they’re like, "I’m sick of your moralizing. I just don’t care." It’s a small group of people who are taking on the burden of individual responsibility, feeling the heaviness, shame, and guilt for the collective consumption. Meanwhile, the people actually overconsuming don’t care about these ethical fashion narratives. So the question is: If this small group is carrying the shame, do we keep trying to reach out and convince people who clearly aren’t receptive? Or do we find other ways to bring about the change we want instead of focusing on shame? Maureen: Yeah, exactly. How do we, as a slow fashion community, shift our narrative to show that we’re not doing this to make our lives worse? We’re not martyrs. We do this because we want to stay optimistic for the future. And I think that’s where we need to be heading—toward a middle ground between "It’s super easy" and "It’s impossible." Sushmita: For sure. I sometimes use these terms interchangeably, but there are differences between slow fashion, ethical fashion, and sustainable fashion. They do overlap, but I don’t follow the slow fashion philosophy. I want more, more, more. For me, ethical fashion has always been the biggest focus—seeing it as a labor-centered movement and thinking about how we can mitigate harm and be more responsible consumers. But the issue is, there are limitations to that for sure. And I think one of the things is that, you know, we have this idea in our mind of if we buy from small businesses in the US or the UK or Australia, they may be ethical, but they don't really have any tangible impact on garment workers in the global south. So those two behaviors are very separate. But in terms of turning away from shame and moving towards a different way of consumerism, I feel like there's so many possibilities and positive outcomes from buying from brands outside of the mainstream. I really connect with it because I like the fashion that's available. I love the textiles, the fashion that's coming out of India right now, the contemporary stuff. There's a lot of color. There's things that I really, really love. I think for me though is, when you're not rich or when you have other limitations, including size or geographical limitations, me living in Japan, sometimes it's just hard to, you know, buy what you need. So there are some beautiful things out there, and I try to support those brands as often as I can. But there are things where I'm just like, Oh, I really wish that I had something warm for the winter that I didn't have to wait four months to arrive and that didn’t cost three to four times the amount plus the additional shipping. And I'm not saying that ethical brands are overpriced. They're not. But as a consumer, it's still hard to pay that kind of money, and I just wish that we would allow people more grace as consumers, especially within this very, very small group of early adopters who’ve taken on these new behaviors. I wish that it didn't have to be this kind of thing of like, you have to be perfect all the time. Otherwise, you no longer believe in the things that you believe. Maureen : To that point, I would love to hear a little bit about... you had posted somewhat recently about trying to experience some more consumerism ease. Could you share a little bit more about some of the steps that you might take towards giving yourself that slack when it comes to buying clothes that align with your ethical values? Sushmita :Yeah, I will. I think, again, it's really scary. It's like, it's almost like saying, "Oh my gosh, I'm stepping out of bounds." I'm afraid about, you know, how people will judge me. I went on to... this is completely unrelated, but before the consumerism ease, I went on to a podcast a few months ago and I had somebody email me. One of the things that they emailed me about was veganism and how important it was to them, and I found it really strange because I'm not vegan. I don’t talk about food in that way. And nothing that I said on that podcast was about food. But it was almost like, if you believe in this, then you should also believe in this. And they had put me into, I think, a box of like a perfect sustainable advocate, and that's not something that I align with at all. The only reason I said it was because I just get scared of doing things that fall out of those identity parameters and how I will be seen and how my body of work might be misaligned because I'm not towing that line perfectly. But yeah, so in terms of the consumerism ease, one of the things is, people who are now reformed slow fashion advocates or ethical fashion advocates, they got a lot of time where they were able to over-consume and they got to find their style. And then all of a sudden overnight, they're like, Hey, not into that anymore. And you're a bad person if you still are. So they got that experience. Whilst for me, and I've spoken about this time and time again, my size and my economic situation changed very, very dramatically. So, I didn’t over-consume fast fashion for a decade. I didn’t even really do anything with fashion. I just had my work outfits and then I had some comfy athleisure outfits, and that was it. I just had no opportunity. And so now that I'm trying to discover my style and connect with fashion, one of the things that has really come to light is that it takes work, and it doesn't always happen right away. So, what I mean is when you make a purchase, it doesn't mean that that purchase is going to be completely amazing and suit you. So that's why I don't really think like, you know, if you only make five purchases a year, if you're fat or if, like,

Episode Transcript This transcript has been edited for clarity. You're listening to Intuitive Style , where we believe that everyone has style. In conversation with fantastic guests, we explore how to tap into our style intuition so that we can dress authentically and live fully. Today's guest is Tina from Semi-Sustainable . Tina is a fashion industry veteran who is about to graduate with her MBA. You know her from her nuanced takes on what it means to shop and dress sustainably and her gorgeous fashion week roundups. Tina, welcome to the show. Tina I am so excited to be here. Thank you so much for having me. And can I say I have loved all of your past episodes. You've made my Fridays so much more exciting. Maureen Oh, I'm so happy to hear that. It's been so fun to make and just a quick shout out to all the guests who have made it possible! I'm so happy to talk today. I know we've had a chance to connect a little bit beforehand, so I'm just happy to hear even more from you about your personal style. For anyone who hasn't had a chance to read your column yet, can you describe what Semi-Sustainable is all about and how you got into the sustainable fashion world, specifically? Tina Totally. You know, I'll even work my way backwards to that question. So I have always worked in traditional fashion. I started as an omni-channel jewelry and accessories buyer, which is where my heart loves is categories to buy. And then I moved into apparel. And as e-commerce was heating up, I was given this opportunity to work in buying and site merchandising on the online side of the business. And I really loved that. But during that time, I never quite absorbed fashion's impact on the planet. So when I was starting out, the emphasis was on high-low dressing and being a smart shopper meant you bought from fast fashion. You bought something from a designer and you had this well-rounded wardrobe. And it was in 2018 that I went to a panel talk given by Mara Hoffman's team, and they talked about how they really transform their supply chain to be more sustainable. And they went into great detail about how fashion harms the planet and what they were doing to really take away some of that impact. It was so eye-opening for me. And after that, I kind of started down this pathway of making changes in my fashion consumption. So it was not overnight by any means, but you know, at the time I was a big Zara shopper and I really worked to slow that down and put more thought into how much I was buying. And for me, what worked in my favor, I was on the earlier side of shopping the RealReal. I've been shopping there for eleven years now. You know, first because, and then I could afford all the designer pieces that I would have loved to have in my budget. And then over time it, because it was more circular and I've shifted a lot of my purchasing to secondhand. Over the last five or six years. I was on the earlier side of shopping the RealReal. I've been shopping there for eleven years now. I could afford all the designer pieces that I would have loved to have in my budget. Then for Semi-Sustainable, I started it last fall as my innovation project. For my MBA program and we were able to get approval to work on anything that would really help grow or advance our careers. And I know I would love to work and some kind of sustainable arm of the fashion industry, especially if there's a tech component in there. So, you know, as far as Substack, I had subscribed to newsletters here and there over the last few years, but I really thought they were more of the silo of newsletters and I didn't realize there was this whole fashion Substack universe. And when I got into it, I was hooked. So I started Semi Sustainable as a way to talk about a subject that I love, but also ways we can be more responsible in our consumption. So for me, that's mostly buying secondhand and not new or what I like to call firsthand. And, you know, I don't think fashion and sustainability are these mutually exclusive concepts. You look at brands like Ganni, for example, and you can see it's possible to do or be both. Maureen Yeah, I love that. Can you speak a little bit more about, you know, why semi-sustainable rather than fully sustainable, for example? Tina I love to say that I could never call this like fully sustainable because it's almost impossible in today's world. If you buy something new, you're manufacturing a new product made out of new materials. It's impacting the planet. So. You can take ways to make it a little more sustainable in your life, whether it's buying secondhand, reducing your consumption, or even outside of fashion. I try to think of ways I can try to reduce my consumption. What kills me is plastic. I have done a lot of research into plastic for my MBA program. So I'm always the person trying to. Find ways to actually recycle my beauty empties through Sephora or take my plastic packaging back to the grocery store in the hopes that it might be made more circular. So just trying to take those steps, knowing that unless you probably never buy anything again, you'll never be a very fully sustainable person. Maureen I love that nuance. I mean, yeah, I think just bringing that nuance and that understanding that full sustainability isn't really even realistic. I resonate with that so much, and Intuitive Style is about is letting go of perfectionism and just seeing those places where perfectionism isn't even possible. I did want to go back a little bit to that talk by Mara Hoffman. I know that was a while ago, but is there anything that comes to mind that like you remember from that talk that just like really struck you as, ‘sustainability is important and it's possible?’ Tina You know, I think where they were talking a lot is some things that I knew a little bit more because of my fashion background. So they talked about how they changed their printing processes to use less water or how they'd work with their manufacturing teams to. Have less fabric wasted wastage and that really resonated with me since as a buyer I was working a lot with production team or factories and it makes you realize how much all the things you make as decisions as a buyer add up. to impact the planet. So, I think for me, like having both the fashion background and then being a little interested in sustainability at the time really worked together to make me realize, whoa, there's, there's so much that I can do to pull back my own consumption. And hopefully, you know, one day getting into this career where I can work in a more sustainable way, you know, hopefully for a secondhand brand or a fashion tech brand that's really helping to make fashion more circular. Maureen Yeah, super cool. I know that you also worked for a trend forecaster, uh, in the past, sometimes a hidden part of the fashion industry. Can you think of any ways that experience has influenced your perspective on the fashion community at large? Tina Yes. So as you said, I worked at a leading global trend forecasting agency and I was a brand consultant there and the trend forecasters were incredible. They did so much deep dive research. And what people sometimes think of trend forecasting is very different from what it is. So trend forecasting is this really complex and nuanced topic. Not just what's going down the runway, but there's these cultural forces that are constantly shaping fashion and what we wear. Um, you know, one of the things we're all familiar with is Y2K dressing. I think especially amongst Gen Z. And it really stems from this phenomenon called anemoia, which is nostalgia for a time you've never experienced. So you see Gen Z growing up during a period of extreme change and upheaval, and they were able to find comfort in this nostalgic clothing that maybe their parents wore or they'd look back in movies and it would just be this really comforting kind of way to express themselves through style. Maureen That's really interesting. Like, and I think it's so, so important to always think about that cultural aspect of how we get dressed because, I would never say that the choices that I make for what I wear are in a vacuum, right? Like, I can't really distill down my choices and be like, yeah, that's a hundred percent me, babe. Like, you know, there's going to be things that I choose that are because there's a social or cultural context. And that's fine. I don't have to be 100% individual in every choice that I make because, again, it's not realistic. I appreciate that social component there because we are social creatures and we also are emotional. So the idea that we would want to create I think you said, um, like comfort or that feeling of nostalgia through our clothes. That makes a lot of sense. What was your favorite thing about working for the trend forecaster? Tina It definitely made me think about fashion much more. Probably a deeper level than I had before, just understanding, you know, what is actually driving the trend. Or in a fun way, you can see what's bubbling up. With the Barbie movie, you could kind of see pink just reach the zenith within the fashion industry. And then kind of fall its way back down. So there's definitely that very Um, emotional connection to fashion that you just touched on societal connection to fashion, political connection to fashion that you can really see clothing evolving as well as just how we're interacting with it in social media, which is. Absolutely fascinating as we've seen micro trends peak over the last few years. Now we're coming back to personal style, which I absolutely love. I love seeing how people decide to get dressed. So. Just having both of those aspects is fascinating within trend forecasting. Maureen Yeah, I hadn't even thought about trend forecasters mining social media. That makes sense. Wow. Wow. Tina Yeah, it's definitely, it's definitely the time capsule, I would say, of the 2000s through now. It's a way to really track trends and understand what's going on in the cultural zeitgeist. So I can find a lot of really interesting shifts in social media. Maureen Right, right. Yeah, I feel like in the past so much of, well, I would think that so much of trends in the past were driven by brands and now with social media, maybe more of the trends are driven by individuals, but maybe individuals have always been driving trends and we just overemphasized the impact of brands. I'm thinking, of course, of that, uh, iconic moment [belt monologue'] from The Devil Wears Prada. Maureen But, anyway. let's talk a little bit about your personal style. so I'm starting to become more interested in why behind what people are wearing rather than just what we're wearing. So can you share with us how do you decide what to personally buy or wear? Tina Yes, I love that question. So I have talked about on Semi-Sustainable how I've been this total maximalist dresser for most of my adult life. I had never been a print or pattern I didn't want to mix together or, you know, wear everything at the same time. But during the pandemic, I think just staying at home, I went through a period where like a lot of us, I wasn't getting dressed up for work. I was wearing sweatpants every day and minimalism and quiet luxury were just beginning to kind of take off. And I was doing a lot of research on that for work. And at the same time for work, I was doing research into next gym fabrics and consumer attitudes on sustainability and the climate crisis. As well as like helping brands learn how they can become more sustainable. So call it looking at minimalist images every day, wanting to make my own wardrobe more sustainable by being timeless or just making this change in my life to mark coming out of the pandemic period, but I started feeling off in my maximalist clothing. So over the last year I've transitioned to this more timeless wardrobe. I'm not buying prints or the bold colors or these really sculptural shapes that might date themselves quickly or be difficult to style in my wardrobe. I'm definitely avoiding fast fashion and I'm proud to say I've never bought anything from Shein, but I absolutely understand if, if somebody has, sometimes it's, it's the most successful option. And 95% of my purchases are probably secondhand from the RealReal or thread up today. So that's really what guides my wardrobe is just looking for timeless style, something I can look at and say, I'm pretty sure I'll still be wearing this in five years and secondhand first always. Maureen Yeah, when you're making kind of a big shift from one end of the spectrum being more maximal to more minimal, how do you, how do you approach that without being too overwhelmed by the scale of, of the transition? Was it more of an organic process? Like, how did you handle that? Tina For me, I just, I started feeling uncomfortable in what I was wearing when I was wearing my really bold pieces. And I don't know about you, but I feel like fashion just is such a form of like self-expression and self-care. And if I don't like what I'm wearing. I don't always feel my most confident for the day. So I dig out like the few minimal pieces I had in my wardrobe and I'm like, okay, I'm feeling better in this. And then I slowly started supplementing my wardrobe with more of those pieces. It is a good thing I am an outfit repeater and I feel wery comfortable repeating outfits because I did that quite a bit as I was slowly building up my wardrobe because I didn't want to just go on this big spree and buy a lot of things and then not really wear them. So it's definitely taken me like about a year or so, but I think I'm in a better place. I'm more thoughtful with what I'm buying. And I feel better about what I'm wearing every time I get dressed, which is a huge one for me. Maureen That's awesome. How about body awareness? So what I mean by this is, when you put on clothing, are there specific textures, fits, or styles that, you gravitate towards because of how they make you feel in your body? Tina Oh my gosh, when I think of this question, I think of the shift that I made from the 2010s era where everything was so tight and restrictive and skinny jeans and fitted tops and high heels. And today there's definitely a sense of comfort first in your dressing where silhouettes are looser and people wear sneakers more often and that's really where I'm falling. When I see skinny jeans come back, I still can't believe that I wore them almost every day for, you know, ten plus years. I felt so uncomfortable most of the time because they're so restrictive. So really having like the ease and the looseness of something that's a little more oversized as is influencing the way I've dressed over the last few years. Maureen Yeah, I'm personally very grateful that we as a fashion community have become open to the idea of oversized and comfort. Prioritizing that over just aesthetics, but almost seeing the, the oversized as the ideal aesthetic. I mean, personally, I'm just overjoyed. I never thought that that's what I would want, but now that we're here, I'm so pleased. Tina I know. I know. Maureen I hope we don't go back, you know, and maybe I feel like there's a lot of people that won't go back even if the trend changes back in that direction. I think a lot of people would be like, nah, I'm good. I've seen the other side. Tina Oh my gosh, I agree. I actually wore skinny jeans for my Halloween costume and I just felt so uncomfortable the whole night. So it was nice to get back into my looser clothing the next day and just feel more relaxed and what I was wearing in my body. Maureen What was the costume? Tina It was Indie Sleaze, um, Ashley Olson. Maureen Oh my gosh, you're such a fashion girl and I mean that in the best way. Tina I don't think anybody but me understood my outfit, but I enjoyed it. Maureen That's so fun, that's so fun. So we've talked a little bit about the kind of transition from maximal to more minimal, but are there any other style evolutions or memorable phases that you can think of from your dressing history? Tina Oh my gosh, outside of maximalism, I would say I look back at the low rise jeans mania of like the 2000s era. Which was not quite right for my body shape since I'm a long wasted person. And I just remember this as it was a time when you could not find anything but low rise jeans anywhere. And yeah, and it was also the height of these expensive jeans is social currency so you'd always want to have that brand logo on your denim pocket and I cringe today that I would save up my money to buy these. Insanely expensive jeans that I felt so uncomfortable. And every time I wore them, I always felt like they were falling down too low. So definitely memorable. I do have a couple of pairs that I am. Not ready to part with because the denim is so amazing. I'm like, maybe I can find a way to like sew five inches of denim on here to make the waist really high waisted, but an upcycling project for one day. Maureen Wow. That sounds cool. If you could add five inches of denim onto the waistband of a pair of pants, I think that you would be an absolute magician. I can't even imagine. But I mean, what you're saying speaks to the fact that fashion isn't just self-expression, it's also fitting in. And I think it's totally reasonable as difficult as it can be to understand, like, we, what do you think about this idea of like, uh, Why is it that our clothing allows us to fit in with groups of people or not fit in if we don't wear what they're wearing like why is that such a big part of our. Our culture. I mean. Tina I know, and you know, you think back to your teens and your 20s where wearing the right thing and fitting in felt so important, where if you didn't have the Expensive low rise jeans. And were you really stylish? I mean, I look back at the pictures and I'm like, no, that was not very stylish, but just having this social identity through fashion, I think, especially because it's a way you can visually signal. Kind of, I don't want to say status in the world, but your self-expression in the world maybe is a better way to say that. And I have, what I've enjoyed about getting older is that I don't feel that need to fit in as much through fashion, I wear what I enjoy wearing and I'm not really a part of the micro trend ecosystem that some people might be in either because they really enjoy it or sometimes it feels like you are kind of fitting in through fashion. So yeah, that's a tough one feeling that that pull to be included through fashion in ways that might not feel authentic to you. Maureen Yeah, I think there's an age component too, right? Tina Totally. Maureen When we are younger and we're less secure in our identity generally because, we're maybe trying to separate ourselves from our family identity, but we haven't figured out who we are, um, outside of our family. I think that's why maybe we lean into these trends as a way to create a new persona and make sure that we are, we're fitting in somewhere, um, especially like as we are developmentally separating from our family. I mean, it makes sense, especially at that age. Even now, like, I think about how, you know, speaking from my personal experience, I don't really have a desire to stand out with my clothes. I like my clothing to be, you know, conversational in the way that it's Interesting. I don't want my clothing to be boring. I also don't really love the idea of like being stopped on the street Because of what I'm wearing, you know, that makes me really uncomfortable to be observed in that way. So even today I think about, yes, I'm dressing for comfort, but thankfully also my, what is, what is in style right now are the things that are comfortable for me personally. And so I'm. I don't know that there's work that needs to be done there, but it is interesting this idea that uh, even now, where I think still a lot of people are still dressing for social acceptance in this quieter, more laid back, sneak

Today's guest is Rachel Margaret, a personal style and beauty YouTuber. She’s known for her humor, great style, and ability to eloquently tackle complex style challenges like, can we experience contentment with our wardrobe s ? She also loves thrifting, and playing with color. Yep, you’re gonna love her. Enjoy! Episode Transcript This transcript has been edited for clarity. You're listening to Intuitive Style , where we believe everyone has style. Through conversations with inspiring guests, we explore how to tune into our style intuition so that we can dress authentically and live fully. Maureen Welcome to the podcast! I have been a really big fan of your YouTube channel, Rachel, Margaret, for a while now. I just heard that you started only a year ago. Rachel Yeah. January, February of last year. Yeah. Maureen Wow. So can you share a little bit about what your channel is about and how you got started? Rachel Well, I think I've always wanted to do something like that, at least since I became an adult, I wanted to do something creative. But I'm a perfectionist, and I've always kind of held myself back. And so about a year ago, I just uploaded a Project Pan video, because I knew if I overthought it, I was just not going to do it. So I just uploaded a Project Pan, and I've been kind of trying to just be consistent and do it ever since. And it's slowly evolved over time. Now, I would say that it's mainly about developing a relationship with consumerism and style that flows from a place of contentment and joy. And I really struggled with compulsive shopping in my own life. And I also thought it might just be helpful for me to share my own thoughts for me really, and then also hopefully, for other people too. Maureen Yeah, absolutely. All of that really comes through in your videos, this idea of contentment. And I think it's such a positive way to deal with what can be a tricky subject which is like, struggling with overconsumption. To that point, I think it can be kind of hard to discern when we're shopping the right amount, or when we're shopping too much, according to like, maybe our own preferences. For you personally, what did shopping compulsively feel like? How did you know that was something you wanted to address. Rachel Yeah, it is a fine line to walk. I think it can be really hard to know what health looks like in so many areas of our life. But you know, in shopping with shopping in particular. I think for me, a really good gauge of the healthiness of a particular action is my ability to pick up or put down that action as I please. Or I guess, to use a different analogy, you'd like to turn up or turn down the dial. I guess, just to clarify. I've never been diagnosed with a shopping addiction or compulsive shopping, or anything like that, because I think that the behaviors exist on a spectrum, and I'm sure that there are people who deal with it much more severely than I do. I think for me, a really good gauge of the healthiness of a particular action is my ability to pick up or put down that action as I please. Or to use a different analogy, you'd like to turn up or turn down the dial. Personally, I began to clock my relationship with shopping as compulsive when I would be shopping for some normal reason, and you know I had the dial turned up a little bit and I would recognize, okay, it's enough now, and I would go to turn the dial down, and I would be unable to and it was kind of like I was thinking about this last night as I was falling asleep, but it's kind of like being caught in an undertow in the ocean, in a rip current. Has that ever happened to you? Maureen Thankfully, no. Rachel It's happened to me, and it can be really scary. It's such a strong current. And I think what they'll teach you. If you get caught in an undertow is to try and swim direct. Well, don't try actually to swim directly into shore, because if you do, you'll get worn out, the undertow will be stronger than you. Instead, swim parallel to the shore until you get out of the rip current, and then you can swim back. So it's kind of like that for me when I'm in. I call it like a shopping spiral like any episode. I'm able to sense that the action is compulsive or distinct from regular shopping behaviors, because I'm no longer just swimming in the ocean. There's like another force outside of my own logic, my own discernment, my willpower. and it's acting upon me, and it's pulling me out to sea, preventing me or making it much harder for me to do what I would like to do, which is to swim back to shore. So that's kind of what it feels like, and that's what I'm working on, which is just keeping my hand on the dial, and making sure that I'm connected enough with myself to be able to turn the dial up or down as I see fit. Maureen I mean, you have such a beautiful way of speaking. And what a great analogy this idea of the rip current. It's such a great way of thinking about it, because to your point, it's not about putting a label on, or some sort of diagnosis. Because I think that can be, you know, very overwhelming. It can be overly medical. It really takes you out of your own experience in your own, of what you're like, what you're feeling and what you're struggling with. And so almost, I think it's so important to to teach ourselves what our threshold for compulsive behavior looks like, because it may be, you know, compulsive behavior for one person is like potentially much smaller in comparison to someone else. But that doesn't mean that it still doesn't feel out of sync. We all have our own threshold. So I think that's the main reason I wanted to ask you is like, how how can we learn what that feels like for us? And I mean just what a what a great answer. And also some ocean-safe swimming advice. I didn't have that on my Bingo card, but great reminder for the upcoming summer season! At the end of last year, at the end of 2024, you shared a really authentic raw video about only keeping your favorite clothes. And what that taught you. You start that video with, “In the past, I wouldn't have said that I was very self-critical, or that I didn't trust myself, but I have a closet full of other people's opinions and preferences that proves otherwise,” for anyone who hasn't had a chance to watch that video yet, can you share how you came to this realization? Rachel Yeah, absolutely. I well, I feel like I've come to this realization in the past. I've learned. you know, it was so many of the things that we need to learn in life. We learn it. I learned it then, and then I've had to learn it again and again and again, and each time you learn it it gets deeper and deeper and more settled within you, and it actually starts to become a part of you. So it's not just something that's in your head, but it's something that you really believe and act out of. Just for context, a few months ago, I stumbled across this really beautiful wooden wardrobe, and while I was out thrifting, and it, it led to this whole series of epiphanies and realizations, and one of those. One of those realizations was just a desire for fewer things, I think, or for, like a more curated selection of things, my favorite things. And I've known that on some level I've recognized that desire within myself, but I've struggled to implement it like there's always reasons to have more to keep that shirt or that pair of pants just in case right like. Or I gain weight, or I get invited to this very specific kind of event. You know, it's like you can always find a reason to keep the maybe items, even though they're just so-so. But there was something about seeing that wardrobe that day, and having this vision before me of a life in a closet that included only my favorite things. and it really gave me an impetus, I guess, to like shed that outer layer that I've always held on to and so, as I was decluttering this most recent time, and I guess also in previous declutters, but I could really see the parts of my wardrobe that were not reflective at all of my own preferences and desires, but of someone else's. and this might be embarrassing to admit, but for many items in my closet. I could actually tell you like, Oh, yeah, I purchased that when I was following so and so, or I got that when I was binging her videos, and it just became exceedingly clear that I was in a habit of seeking legitimacy for my style by copying the style of others. And I think that that is very normal. It's really natural, you know, and a lot of ways subconscious like when you're 1st starting out finding your style. It's hard to know where to begin, and and it makes sense that you would start by copying what you see. It's like trying something on like a persona or a silhouette or a color palette. You have to trial and error those things. But I mean, yeah, experimentation is necessary. It's necessary to learn ourselves and develop our preferences. It's just that for me. I think that experimentation began to flow solely from and style opinions of other people. And yeah, I just kind of used that realization to trace the line back and to see what was true. Which is that I didn't seem to trust myself. I didn't consider my style preferences as legitimate enough to be the source of my experimentation and my purchasing, and that's why and how I came to that conclusion. I didn't consider my style preferences as legitimate enough to be the source of my experimentation and my purchasing. Maureen That’s so powerful. This idea of you know, we're delegitimizing our own preferences. And I say we, because, same like I still relate. I mean, there are so many different people like influencers that I have really fallen deep into a rabbit hole around, and I just want to copy exactly what they have, even when they are saying don't buy what I buy like. Sometimes they would even say that. And I'd be like, I don't care. I'm gonna do it, anyway, you know, or like. it's just to your point. It's human nature. We want to just try stuff on. And you know, especially when we're unsure of what we want. It can be easier to just be like, oh, I'll just try this then. But : I like to say everyone has personal style, like we're not not getting dressed. We're getting dressed. We're putting on clothing. And so when we say we don't have style, we're saying, maybe our style isn't as good as someone else's, or maybe it doesn't resonate with us in some way which either one is fine. But I think, like what I. What resonated with so much about your video is like. we have the opportunity to just say that my taste and my preferences are enough. And that's okay. And I just I never really heard anyone say it that way before. So I just I really want to appreciate and acknowledge like how powerful that was. And I appreciate you, you sharing that. In that video and in videos since, you seem to be glowing in a way that you hadn't before, and I don't necessarily mean physical appearance, but I mean more like like an energetic kind of thing. But I would just love to hear like, an update? How are you feeling now? Are you still feeling that kind of energy that you had at the time like, how was getting dressed feeling? Once you had that realization? Rachel It's feeling really good. It's feeling really good. Actually, recently I went out thrifting for my birthday. Maureen Happy birthday! Rachel Another kind of like mini-wardrobe epiphany while I was shopping, and I just realized how I wanted to be more playful with my clothes, and, you know, enjoy color more, and I've tried to figure out how to do that in the past, but I never really found a way that clicked with me. It always felt a little bit inauthentic. And it's probably because I was trying to do it the way another person does it, you know. But yeah, that's kind of where, I'm at recently is just really feeling a lot of freedom around being creative and using my wardrobe as a source of expression, and also just not taking it too seriously. You know it can be. It can be hard to do. It's funny. I mean, it's just clothing, but it can be. It can feel like you really want to figure it out and and have something that works and have it be all certain. But it's it's just not. It's a lot of like playing. Maureen Oh, random question. I'm curious, if you relate to this at all like in the past, I will have bought something or been drawn to something. And then I'm like disgusted with myself. And I'm like, Oh. why did I like that like that's so like weird, or that's so bad…Or even like this like striped shirt that I'm wearing today. Like I like it now. But when I bought it, I was like, Okay, this is really cool, like, I really like how I'm gonna wear this. And then, like a year later, I was really into very Scandi minimalism. And I was like, I can't believe I bought this like pink striped shirt with a gold thread like how gross is that? I mean, I'm just curious like, do you ever have you ever had purchases like that where you're like? I don't know what I was thinking, but you actually like the item. Rachel Yes, yeah, absolutely. I think it can. Well, it happens for me when I get into like about watching a particular person with a particular style. And suddenly I'm looking at my closet through the filter of that other Yes, style, and I'm like they would never wear that right. Not be good style, right like. And I. And again, it's not as I don't think it's as conscious as that, you know, right. Like we go in our closet and think that exact thing. I think it's very under the surface and yeah, hidden away. But I definitely have experienced that, because then I'll come out of that bout of following that person. And suddenly I like it again. So what’s going on there? Maureen I mean, I hear that just as like one person style rabbit hole is not good for us. It's not. And it's like we gotta we gotta balance out our inspiration sources. So let's talk a little bit about what you do wear. So I'm getting to the point where I'm trying to care more about why people wear stuff instead of what , so that I can have a little bit more detachment. So I would just kind of love to hear. How do you decide what to buy and what to wear. Rachel Oh, my God, Yes, that's such a good question. I've had so much fun like looking through your notes and answering these questions, because it's like a good mental exercise. I don't really know, you know the answer to that. I didn't know the answer to that going in. So it's just. Maureen It's not an easy one. Rachel Like I mentioned recently, I was thrifting for my birthday, and I went into the dressing room, and I tried on this combination that was just slightly I don't know. Out of my comfort zone like a little funkier. A little more fun, more playful. And it was like something clicked in my brain. I can't explain that and then make a Youtube video about it, though to try to explain it somehow. But yeah, I just started to understand. I just started to have a sense of how I wanted to play with color, how I wanted to add playfulness in a lot of ways. It was the first time in recent memory that I can remember having that inspiration come from myself as opposed to somewhere else. And it has been so wonderful. It's been so fun, it's such a different way of approaching clothing. It was the first time in recent memory that I can remember having that inspiration come from myself as opposed to somewhere else. Just to answer the question. I have criteria you know, that I think about when I'm wanting to add something in. But I think for the current phase, the current iteration of my wardrobe. It definitely has to start with that feeling of joyfulness when I put something on. And that doesn't necessarily mean that I'm looking for the fanciest clothes, you know, clothes feel amazing for a lot of different reasons. A cozy sweater, you know, isn't necessarily going to make us feel the same reason like feel amazing, for the same reason that a fantastic dress or a power suit. But it doesn't mean that it doesn't deserve a place in our closet if it makes us feel good, you know. So I think, firstly, it's just kind of that checking with myself and seeing if the item has that intangible quality of joyfulness. Like, if it makes me want to sing, then that's a good sign. So I think, firstly, it's just kind of that checking with myself and seeing if the item has that intangible quality of joyfulness. Like, if it makes me want to sing, then that's a good sign. Maureen Oh, singing, that's new! Okay. I haven't thought about that! Are you a singer? Rachel No, not a good one, not a good one. More just, if it brings out kind of a silliness, a goofiness, a confidence, a I don't know, a light heartedness. I think that that's what I mean. And I can tell when I put on something, and I feel that way. And then that probably really greatly overlaps with the second thing that I thought about, which is, does it suit me like, does it suit my life? You know I've lived enough life, and I've done enough experimentation, I think, with my wardrobe to have a realistic sense of what works for me and what doesn't. So colors, silhouettes, lifestyle considerations, all of that. But it's got to check all the boxes, you know, and it doesn't. It doesn't mean that I'm never going to go out of my comfort zone. But I think that there are ways that we can play and experiment while still keeping the practicalities in mind. And I find, when I don't keep those practicalities in mind. I regret it, and I never end up wearing the new thing. If it doesn't suit me, then suit my life. So that's a big part about. yeah, just a big factor in deciding what I bring in what I wear. If [a garment] brings out kind of a silliness, a goofiness, a confidence, a I don't know, a light heartedness. And then, lastly, I think it is the question of does it work with what I already have like? When I'm considering adding something in, I try to think of at least 5 different outfits I can create with that new item from the things I already have, and it's got to come really easily, like if I can. If I can come up with three outfits. But then I'm racking my brain to create more. Then it's going to be a great addition, you know, to my wardrobe. It's probably more of a fantasy piece, or like, I like the idea of it. It's 80% of the way there. But there's something something missing. So yeah, it really has to work with what I already have. Maureen Yeah, I'd love to go back to kind of one of the points that you made about trying to figure out how you want to play with color. I really relate to this. I've done so much experimentation. I really learned so much of what doesn't work for me, and I got to a place where I was like oh, maybe I've discerned a little too much, and things are starting to feel a little bit like same same, and you know, not getting the kind of versatility that I was hoping for. So can you talk a little bit about how how you balance this idea of knowing your preferences while staying open to things that you haven't before like, what about that experimentation with color today maybe feels different than experimentation with color you've done before? Rachel Well, some of it, I do think, is those filters of other people's style, removing those as much as possible, because I I think in the past when I looked at color. I've been like, neon, or, you know, gross like, just just because I think I yeah. Well, black and beige and white are cool. Right? That's what cool girls wear. And you know, I don't know just really letting those ideas infiltrate. And it's just what's trending. It's just, you know, this kind of. And if black and beige and white make you feel incredible, then I think, go for it, you know. But yeah, I think some of it is just trying, if possible, to limit how much consumption of that of that inspiration from other people, or at least balancing it with how much we play with the things that we that we have and what's what's ours, you know. And then the other thing I think like if I'm thinking about ad