Judgemental - a psychologist and a lawyer walk into a bar

What happens when a stubborn safety issue turns into a crisis of trust, culture, and psychosocial risk? In this episode, Kate and Greg are joined by Louis Webb and Brendan Luker from Hume City Council to unpack a real-world case study that started with a manual handling safety concern, and evolved into something much bigger. When vehicle mounted cranes were taken out of service, it sparked frustration, confusion, and fear across the team. Workers felt unheard. Management felt stuck. And over time, unresolved physical safety risks began to intersect with rising psychosocial risks—low trust, poor communication, and genuine concerns for mental wellbeing. Instead of more policies, more meetings, or more top-down decisions, Louis took a different approach—bringing everyone into the room. No scripts. No fixed agenda. Just real, structured conversations grounded in curiosity, transparency, and genuine consultation. Over a series of open sessions, the team: Voiced frustrations that had been building for years Explored both frontline and management perspectives Challenged assumptions and unpacked the “why” behind decisions Co-designed safer, more practical ways of working The outcome? A complete turnaround. And a WorkSafe inspector surprised - yet delighted at what had been achieved. The crew (who had been strongly advocating to keep cranes on their trucks) ultimately made the call themselves to move away from them after fully understanding the broader risks and constraints. More importantly, trust was rebuilt through transparent and honest conversations, morale lifted, laughter and humour returned to the workplace and psychosocial risks were significantly reduced. This episode is a powerful reminder that: Consultation isn’t a checkbox—it’s a control Psychological safety enables better safety decisions People don’t resist change—they resist not being heard The best solutions often come from the people doing the work If you’re dealing with conflict, resistance, or stuck safety issues in your organisation, this conversation shows what’s possible when you stop talking at people—and start working with them. Connect with us: LinkedIn – Kate Connors LinkedIn – Greg Smith LinkedIn – EML LinkedIn – Mutual Benefits Resources: Elemental Psychology & Coaching website Greg Smith – Safety Books Proving Safety and Paper Safe EML website EML Psychosocial resources – Mutual Benefits https://www.eml.com.au/news-community/latest-news/reduce-psychosocial-risks-in-workplaces/ Follow Judgemental: A psychologist and a lawyer walk into a bar Spotify Apple Amazon Be sure to subscribe, leave us a review or send us a message. This podcast series is proudly sponsored by EML. As Australia’s largest personal injury claims provider, EML provide services to the workers compensation, life insurance and CTP personal injury markets. For over 110-years, the EML Group has proudly helped people get their lives back after a workplace injury or illness. The Mutual Benefits program reinvests a portion of EML profits into innovative products, tools, initiatives and services that are designed to improve outcomes for employers, injured workers, and the communities we support.​ Click here for the free resources available within the Mutual Benefit program to support psychosocial risk management in the workplace.

Kate, Greg and Rod are back at the bar for Part 2 of their conversation. And no – they aren’t really catching fish! They are identifying and controlling psychosocial hazards, by diving into the messy reality of psychosocial risk, where nothing is neat, linear, or easily solved. In this part of the conversation, they unpack five categories of psychosocial hazards - and the overlaps and intersections that Rod researched to design this approach. The question “are all hazards equal” and therefore should they all attract equal attention and resources is debated. It was no surprise to Kate that Rod’s research identifies the biggest troublemaker (when considering the dynamic between hazard and harm) is interpersonal hazards. Yes – humans can be very harmful hazards! From there, the conversation shifts from “what are the hazards?” to “what are we actually doing about them?”— and the answer isn’t more policies. It’s about designing a multi-layer approach to control systems, and moving away from a list of controls for individual hazards. This means designing controls from organisational culture through to what actually happens on the frontline This episode confronts the hard truth - organisations can tick all the legal and regulatory compliance boxes and people can still be psychologically harmed. Because managing legal risk isn’t the same as managing human impact. The big takeaway? If you want to make a dent in psychosocial risk, start where it matters most—how people treat each other, and how leaders lead—and have systems in place to assure that what’s written on paper actually shows up in the day-to-day. Connect with us: LinkedIn – Kate Connors LinkedIn – Greg Smith LinkedIn – Dr Rod Gutierrez LinkedIn – EML Resources: “The Net Effect – an ecosystems approach to psychosocial risk management.” Elemental Psychology & Coaching website Greg Smith – Safety Books Proving Safety and Paper Safe EML website EML Psychosocial resources – Mutual Benefits https://www.eml.com.au/news-community/latest-news/reduce-psychosocial-risks-in-workplaces/ Follow Judgemental: A psychologist and a lawyer walk into a bar Spotify Apple Amazon Youtube Be sure to subscribe, leave us a review or send us a message. This podcast series is proudly sponsored by EML. As Australia’s largest personal injury claims provider, EML provide services to the workers compensation, life insurance and CTP personal injury markets. For over 110-years, the EML Group has proudly helped people get their lives back after a workplace injury or illness. The Mutual Benefits program reinvests a portion of EML profits into innovative products, tools, initiatives and services that are designed to improve outcomes for employers, injured workers, and the communities we support.​ Click here for the free resources available within the Mutual Benefit program to support psychosocial risk management in the workplace.

In this episode of Judgemental , Kate Connors and co-host Greg Smith are joined by Dr Rod Gutierrez—doctor, psychologist, and author of The Net Effect —for part 1 of a rich and provocative 2-part conversation about the future of psychosocial risk management. Rod takes listeners inside his unique professional journey and the thinking behind his book, challenging the dominant “tick-the-box” approach that still underpins much of workplace health and safety. Instead of treating psychosocial risk as a series of isolated hazards, he introduces a powerful alternative: the idea of the net effect —a more human, interconnected way of understanding how risks interact and are experienced through individual differences. Together, the trio explores why traditional engineering-style safety frameworks struggle to address complex human problems, and why compliance alone is not enough. They unpack the gap between regulation and meaningful practice, the unintended consequences of controlling risk in silos, and the growing tension between prevention and real-time support in workplaces. The conversation also ventures into the rising influence of AI and the uncomfortable truth that even though workplaces still haven’t mastered human-to-human care, they are now increasingly focused on human-to-AI interactions. Key discussion points: Why psychosocial risk can’t be managed one hazard at a time The “net effect” and what it means for real-world practice The gap between regulatory compliance and meaningful safety AI as both a solution—and a new psychosocial hazard The hard truth: workplaces still struggle with human-to-human care Connect with us: LinkedIn – Kate Connors LinkedIn – Greg Smith LinkedIn – Dr Rod Gutierrez LinkedIn – EML Resources: “The Net Effect – an ecosystems approach to psychosocial risk management.” Elemental Psychology & Coaching website Greg Smith – Safety Books Proving Safety and Paper Safe EML website EML Psychosocial Resources – Mutual Benefits https://www.eml.com.au/news-community/latest-news/reduce-psychosocial-risks-in-workplaces/ Follow Judgemental: A psychologist and a lawyer walk into a bar Spotify Apple Amazon Music Be sure to subscribe, leave us a review, or send us a message. This podcast series is proudly sponsored by EML. As Australia’s largest personal injury claims provider, EML provide services to the workers compensation, life insurance and CTP personal injury markets. For over 110-years, the EML Group has proudly helped people get their lives back after a workplace injury or illness. The Mutual Benefits program reinvests a portion of EML profits into innovative products, tools, initiatives and services that are designed to improve outcomes for employers, injured workers, and the communities we support.​ Click here for the free resources available within the Mutual Benefit program to support psychosocial risk management in the workplace.

This week in the bar, Kate and Greg are joined by investigations expert Scott McLintock to unpack the complex reality of workplace investigations—and why they’re rarely as simple as “finding the truth.” As a follow-on from Episode 2: Workplace investigations and safe systems of work , Kate and Greg explore the human, legal and organisational dynamics that play out throughout an investigation process. From navigating competing perspectives and “multiple truths,” to managing legal risk, psychological harm and unintended consequences, the discussion highlights how investigations can ultimately shape, or destabilise workplace culture. The key takeaway? Before launching an investigation, ask yourself…..do we actually need one, or do we need to lean in and actively manage the situation? A sharp, thoughtful and at times sobering conversation about discretion, fairness and keeping people at the centre when things go wrong. Connect with us: LinkedIn – Kate Connors LinkedIn – Greg Smith LinkedIn – Scott McLintock LinkedIn – EML Resources: CurbyMcLintock: https://curbypartners.com.au Elemental Psychology & Coaching website Greg Smith – Safety Books Proving Safety and Paper Safe EML website EML Psychosocial resources – Mutual Benefits https://www.eml.com.au/news-community/latest-news/reduce-psychosocial-risks-in-workplaces/ Follow Judgemental: A psychologist and a lawyer walk into a bar Spotify Apple Amazon Be sure to subscribe, leave us a review or send us a message. Insert links when podcasts published to platform This podcast series is proudly sponsored by EML. As Australia’s largest personal injury claims provider, EML provide services to the workers compensation, life insurance and CTP personal injury markets. For over 110-years, the EML Group has proudly helped people get their lives back after a workplace injury or illness. The Mutual Benefits program reinvests a portion of EML profits into innovative products, tools, initiatives and services that are designed to improve outcomes for employers, injured workers, and the communities we support.​ Click here for the free resources available within the Mutual Benefit program to support psychosocial risk management in the workplace.

Kate and Greg return to their virtual bar stools for their first legal decision discussion of series 3—this time tackling workplace investigations. Using the recent Department of Education NSW v SafeWork NSW decision as the backdrop, they unpack how timeliness, communication and the allocation of alternate duties during investigations are factors requiring employers design and focus. The context is sobering as the matter was prompted by a prolonged investigation that culminated in a worker’s attempted suicide. Kate and Greg unpack why timeliness, transparency, and procedural fairness are not just administrative issues but deeply human ones. As usual, a key thread throughout the episode is the distinction between process and outcome and whether employers have fit for purpose systems to assess risk, allocate alternative duties, and monitor investigations. Along the way, they question knee jerk formal investigations, and argue for earlier and more “human centred” options, that might actually be helpful not harmful. Heavy topic, sharp insights, a splash of humour—and a clear warning: leave people waiting for too long, and the consequences can be catastrophic. The episode closes with practical takeaways for employers: Re-examine what truly needs a formal investigation. Treat investigation processes as psychosocial hazards in their own right. Monitor timeliness and human impact, not just compliance. Build advisory capability and case management approaches. Never underestimate the potential for catastrophic harm when people are left in prolonged organisational limbo. Connect with us: LinkedIn – Kate Connors LinkedIn – Greg Smith LinkedIn – EML Resources: Industrial Relations Commission, New South Wales: DoE v SafeWork NSW Industrial Relations Commission, New South Wales: Killen v SafeWork NSW and NSW Rural Fire Service Elemental Psychology & Coaching website Greg Smith – Safety Books Proving Safety and Paper Safe EML website EML Psychosocial resources – Mutual Benefitshttps://www.eml.com.au/news-community/latest-news/reduce-psychosocial-risks-in-workplaces/ Follow Judgemental: A psychologist and a lawyer walk into a bar Spotify Apple Amazon Youtube Be sure to subscribe, leave us a review or send us a message. This podcast series is proudly sponsored by EML. As Australia’s largest personal injury claims provider, EML provide services to the workers compensation, life insurance and CTP personal injury markets. For over 110-years, the EML Group has proudly helped people get their lives back after a workplace injury or illness. The Mutual Benefits program reinvests a portion of EML profits into innovative products, tools, initiatives and services that are designed to improve outcomes for employers, injured workers, and the communities we support.​ Click here for the free resources available within the Mutual Benefit program to support psychosocial risk management in the workplace.

In this very special episode, Kate and Greg have literally walked into a bar. Tune in to the team’s firstever live podcast, recorded in a Melbourne bar and in front of an audience (and yes, drinks were involved). They’re joined by Catherine Jeffries, Director of Health, Safety & Wellbeing at Monash Health, who shares practical, frontline insights into leading a psychosocial risk management strategy within one of Victoria’s largest and most complex organisations. Together, they unpack what it really looks like to operate under Victoria’s psychosocial regulations—three months on. (And yes, Victoria was the final piece of the national regulatory puzzle. Kate would like it on the record that this was absolutely not her fault, despite Greg’s ongoing suggestions.) In this two-part episode, the team kicks off with the Monash Health case study, which takes listeners through a series of twists and turns: maintaining employee privacy in complaints and investigations, sharing aggregate data across internal teams, leveraging digital platforms for consultation and risk assessment, and—most controversially—the use of green, amber, and red risk rating matrices, and the potential implications they pose for WHS prosecution defence. In part two, Kate and Greg tackle when organisations should consider engaging psychosocial risk consultants, with CoPilot offering a few unsolicited thoughts of its own—before handing things over to a lively, audience driven Q&A. It’s practical, provocative, and a little chaotic. Settle in, grab your drink of choice, and enjoy the mayhem that is psychosocial risk. Connect with us: LinkedIn – Kate Connors LinkedIn – Greg Smith LinkedIn – EML Resources: Elemental Psychology & Coaching website Greg Smith – Safety Books Proving Safety and Paper Safe EML website EML Psychosocial resources – Mutual Benefitshttps://www.eml.com.au/news-community/latest-news/reduce-psychosocial-risks-in-workplaces/ Follow Judgemental: A psychologist and a lawyer walk into a bar Spotify Apple Amazon Youtube Be sure to subscribe, leave us a review or send us a message. This podcast series is proudly sponsored by EML. As Australia’s largest personal injury claims provider, EML provide services to the workers compensation, life insurance and CTP personal injury markets. For over 110-years, the EML Group has proudly helped people get their lives back after a workplace injury or illness. The Mutual Benefits program reinvests a portion of EML profits into innovative products, tools, initiatives and services that are designed to improve outcomes for employers, injured workers, and the communities we support.​ Click here for the free resources available within the Mutual Benefit program to support psychosocial risk management in the workplace.

On 18 November 2025, the most significant changes to the NSW workers compensation scheme in over a decade were announced. In this special episode of Judgemental, Kate and Greg sit down with Gillian, Legal Manager for EML, to unpack what these reforms mean for businesses and employees in NSW. The discussion dives into the core focus of the reforms - psychological injury claims, which have surged in recent years and increased scheme costs. Gillian explains why these changes were necessary and what practical impacts they will have for workplaces and the claims process. The discussion shapes up to cover the intersection of workers compensation legislation to WHS and employment law, and of course, psychosocial risk management. Grab a drink of choice and join Kate, Greg and Gillian to understand what these reforms will mean both directly and indirectly for NSW workplaces. Connect with us: LinkedIn – Kate Connors LinkedIn – Greg Smith LinkedIn – EML Resources: EML NSW Employer Webinar on the legislative changes NSW Parliament – Workers Compensation Legislation Amendment Bill 2025 Elemental Psychology & Coaching website Greg Smith – Safety Books Proving Safety and Paper Safe EML website EML Psychosocial resources – Mutual Benefitshttps://www.eml.com.au/news-community/latest-news/reduce-psychosocial-risks-in-workplaces/ Follow Judgemental: A psychologist and a lawyer walk into a bar Spotify Apple Amazon Youtube Be sure to subscribe, leave us a review or send us a message. This podcast series is proudly sponsored by EML. As Australia’s largest personal injury claims provider, EML provide services to the workers compensation, life insurance and CTP personal injury markets. For over 110-years, the EML Group has proudly helped people get their lives back after a workplace injury or illness. The Mutual Benefits program reinvests a portion of EML profits into innovative products, tools, initiatives and services that are designed to improve outcomes for employers, injured workers, and the communities we support.​ Click here for the free resources available within the Mutual Benefit program to support psychosocial risk management in the workplace.

In the final episode of Series 2, Kate and Greg settle into their metaphorical bar stools with cocktails in hand to unpack a recent Fair Work Commission decision that, while legally unremarkable, opens up a typically rich and thought provoking conversation. The case involves a worker placed on a performance management plan, who later lodged an anti-bullying application. Though the Commission found no bullying, it did note the applicant’s “idiosyncratic personalised belief system” – prompting Kate & Greg to consider the limited number of circumstances where such phrasing isn’t open to appeal. As always, the episode is equal parts sharp analysis and warm banter with both Kate and Greg naming their favourite conversations from Series 2. Which was yours? Connect with us: LinkedIn – Kate Connors LinkedIn – Greg Smith LinkedIn – EML LinkedIn – Mutual Benefits Program Articles: Fair Work Commision decision – available here Resources: Elemental Psychology & Coaching website Greg Smith – Safety Books Proving Safety and Paper Safe EML website EML Psychosocial resources – Mutual Benefitshttps://www.eml.com.au/news-community/latest-news/reduce-psychosocial-risks-in-workplaces/ Follow Judgemental: A psychologist and a lawyer walk into a bar Spotify Apple Amazon Youtube Be sure to subscribe, leave us a review or send us a message. This podcast series is proudly sponsored by EML. As Australia’s largest personal injury claims provider, EML provide services to the workers compensation, life insurance and CTP personal injury markets. For over 110-years, the EML Group has proudly helped people get their lives back after a workplace injury or illness. The Mutual Benefits program reinvests a portion of EML profits into innovative products, tools, initiatives and services that are designed to improve outcomes for employers, injured workers, and the communities we support.​ Click here for the free resources available within the Mutual Benefit program to support psychosocial risk management in the workplace.

In this episode, Kate and Greg dive into a recent Fair Work Commission case that brings psychosocial risk management and constructive dismissal into sharp focus. Their conversation once again explores the complex landscape of psychosocial hazards, with particular attention to sexual harassment and organisational justice. The case provides a timely opportunity for Greg to unpack the concept of constructive dismissal —a specific form of unfair dismissal —and explain the emerging implications for employers as a distinct employment risk separate, yet as always closely connected to, their workplace health & safety risks. Kate and Greg also examine internal investigation processes, which are central to how organisational justice is experienced. Recognising these investigations as pivotal “moments that matter,” they ponder a critical question: Why isn’t organisational justice more prominently featured as a critical risk on workplace risk registers? The episode touches on key themes such as confidentiality, workforce consultation, and the importance of clear, consistent, and transparent communication during internal investigations. The conversation reinforces that these elements are essential to fostering a sense of safety and fairness in the workplace. As always, Kate and Greg bring their signature insight and candour to another engaging bar-side chat. Grab a drink, get comfy and listen in! Connect with us: LinkedIn – Kate Connors LinkedIn – Greg Smith LinkedIn – EML LinkedIn – Mutual Benefits Program Articles: Fair Work Act Decision – s394 – Unfair dismiss Resources: Elemental Psychology & Coaching website Greg Smith – Safety Books Proving Safety and Paper Safe EML website EML Psychosocial resources – Mutual Benefitshttps://www.eml.com.au/news-community/latest-news/reduce-psychosocial-risks-in-workplaces/ Follow Judgemental: A psychologist and a lawyer walk into a bar Spotify Apple Amazon Youtube Be sure to subscribe, leave us a review or send us a message. This podcast series is proudly sponsored by EML. As Australia’s largest personal injury claims provider, EML provide services to the workers compensation, life insurance and CTP personal injury markets. For over 110-years, the EML Group has proudly helped people get their lives back after a workplace injury or illness. The Mutual Benefits program reinvests a portion of EML profits into innovative products, tools, initiatives and services that are designed to improve outcomes for employers, injured workers, and the communities we support.​ Click here for the free resources available within the Mutual Benefit program to support psychosocial risk management in the workplace.

In a Judgemental first – Kate and Greg are in the same location as they sit down with Keith Govias, Workplace Safety & Risk Principal for EML and dive inside the minds of Australia’s Workplaces. Mental health conditions now account for an increasing proportion of workers compensation and personal injury claims across the country. To better understand the landscape, EML commissioned research conducted by Monash University’s Healthy Working Lives Research Group. By analysing four major national data sets across workers (those with compensation claims, and those with mental health-related claims), the paper delivers important insights psychosocial risk management. Grab a drink of choice and join Kate, Greg and Keith to unpack the research – which offers more than just insights - it’s a clear call to action. Connect with us: LinkedIn – Keith Govias LinkedIn – Kate Connors LinkedIn – Greg Smith LinkedIn – EML LinkedIn – Mutual Benefits Program Resources: Elemental Psychology & Coaching website Greg Smith – Safety Books Proving Safety and Paper Safe EML website EML Psychosocial resources – Mutual Benefitshttps://www.eml.com.au/news-community/latest-news/reduce-psychosocial-risks-in-workplaces/ Follow Judgemental: A psychologist and a lawyer walk into a bar Spotify Apple Amazon Youtube Be sure to subscribe, leave us a review or send us a message. This podcast series is proudly sponsored by EML. As Australia’s largest personal injury claims provider, EML provide services to the workers compensation, life insurance and CTP personal injury markets. For over 110-years, the EML Group has proudly helped people get their lives back after a workplace injury or illness. The Mutual Benefits program reinvests a portion of EML profits into innovative products, tools, initiatives and services that are designed to improve outcomes for employers, injured workers, and the communities we support.​ Click here for the free resources available within the Mutual Benefit program to support psychosocial risk management in the workplace.

Each year, the month of June is dedicated to increasing public knowledge about PTSD, a condition that can arise from various traumatic experiences, not just combat or obvious traumatic events. In this episode of the Judgemental Podcast, Kate and Greg recognise PTSD Awareness month by delving into the complexity of vicarious trauma – one of the twelve psychosocial risks. To help navigate this important conversation, they’re joined in the virtual bar by Amy Nicholas, author of the 2023 Churchill Fellowship-sponsored report, “Mitigating Vicarious Trauma: Adopting an Occupational Safety Approach.” Amy’s groundbreaking work draws on insights from leading global practitioners and academics who are dedicated to understanding, preventing, and responding to the harm associated with exposure to traumatic content. Together, Kate, Greg, and Amy unpack the report’s key findings, including: • The distinct “pathways” through which vicarious trauma can cause harm • The protective factors that organisations must intentionally design for • Practical work design controls and real-world case studies that offer hope and direction As always, there’s a moment for the legal lens to come into focus—this time exploring the evolving landscape of codes of practice, regulation, and legislation surrounding psychosocial hazards in the workplace. So whether you're sipping a hot chocolate, a calming tea, or something a little stronger, pull up a seat in the virtual bar and join Kate, Greg, and Amy for a thoughtful, timely, and important conversation. Connect with us: LinkedIn – Kate Connors LinkedIn – Greg Smith LinkedIn – Amy Nicolas LinkedIn – EML LinkedIn – Mutual Benefits Program Resources: Mitigating vicarious trauma: adopting an occupational safety approach SafeWork NSW v Marist Youth Care Limited [2024] NSWDC74 Elemental Psychology & Coaching website Greg Smith – Safety Books Proving Safety and Paper Safe EML website EML Psychosocial resources – Mutual Benefitshttps://www.eml.com.au/news-community/latest-news/reduce-psychosocial-risks-in-workplaces/ Follow Judgemental: A psychologist and a lawyer walk into a bar Spotify Apple Amazon Youtube Be sure to subscribe, leave us a review or send us a message. This podcast series is proudly sponsored by EML. As Australia’s largest personal injury claims provider, EML provide services to the workers compensation, life insurance and CTP personal injury markets. For over 110-years, the EML Group has proudly helped people get their lives back after a workplace injury or illness. The Mutual Benefits program reinvests a portion of EML profits into innovative products, tools, initiatives and services that are designed to improve outcomes for employers, injured workers, and the communities we support.​ Click here for the free resources available within the Mutual Benefit program to support psychosocial risk management in the workplace.

In the third and final episode of the reasonable management action deep dive, the Judgemental team are joined by Erica Thuijs, Greg’s colleague and an expert in employer’s liability and workers compensation. In this episode, Erica, Kate and Greg take the discussion straight into the workplace to explore the nuances of the various workers compensation jurisdictions in Australia, whilst examining the key considerations for employers. Concepts such as ‘reasonableness’, ‘fairness’ and ‘harshness’ are reviewed from a multitude of angles – encompassing legal, psychological and safety considerations for the workplace. With the varied and somewhat opposing legal vs psychological frameworks in the mix, it’s another episode designed to nurture ponderings and reflections in the wonderful world of psychosocial risk. Grab a drink and join Kate, Greg and Erica at the bar. Connect with us: LinkedIn – Kate Connors LinkedIn – Greg Smith LinkedIn – Erica Thijs LinkedIn – EML LinkedIn – Mutual Benefits Program Resources: District court of Western Australia, Suleski -v- Pilbara Iron Company (Services) Pty Ltd, 17 August 2018 High Court of Australia, Comcare v Martin [2016] HCA 43 (9 November 2016) Livingston, Jackson & Priestley (2021) Root causes analysis: Literature review Dr Ivan Pupulidy and Crista Vesel - Human and Organisational Potential Elemental Psychology & Coaching website Greg Smith – Safety Books Proving Safety and Paper Safe EML website EML Psychosocial resources – Mutual Benefitshttps://www.eml.com.au/news-community/latest-news/reduce-psychosocial-risks-in-workplaces/ Follow Judgemental: A psychologist and a lawyer walk into a bar Spotify Apple Amazon Youtube Be sure to subscribe, leave us a review or send us a message. This podcast series is proudly sponsored by EML. As Australia’s largest personal injury claims provider, EML provide services to the workers compensation, life insurance and CTP personal injury markets. For over 110-years, the EML Group has proudly helped people get their lives back after a workplace injury or illness. The Mutual Benefits program reinvests a portion of EML profits into innovative products, tools, initiatives and services that are designed to improve outcomes for employers, injured workers, and the communities we support.​ Click here for the free resources available within the Mutual Benefit program to support psychosocial risk management in the workplace.

In this much-anticipated deep dive, the Judgemental team unpacks the complexities of “reasonable management action” through the lens of a fascinating 2014 Fair Work Commission case. The episode centres on an application to stop workplace bullying—brought not by a subordinate, but by a manager who claimed her team was targeting her with unreasonable bullying allegations and that she lacked support from higher management. This case raises compelling questions about what constitutes unreasonable behaviour, how bullying is defined in a legal context, and the broader implications for psychosocial risk and workplace health and safety. As always, Greg brings his sharp legal analysis, while Kate explores the psychological dimensions, offering listeners a rich, multidimensional perspective. With their contrasting yet complementary viewpoints, this episode is sure to spark thoughtful reflection on the evolving landscape of workplace dynamics and psychosocial risk. Grab a drink and settle in for another episode at the bar! Connect with us: LinkedIn – Kate Connors LinkedIn – Greg Smith LinkedIn – EML LinkedIn – Mutual Benefits Program Resources: Fair Work Commission Decision website Elemental Psychology & Coaching website Greg Smith – Safety Books Proving Safety and Paper Safe EML website EML Psychosocial resources – Mutual Benefitshttps://www.eml.com.au/news-community/latest-news/reduce-psychosocial-risks-in-workplaces/ Follow Judgemental: A psychologist and a lawyer walk into a bar Spotify Apple Amazon Youtube Be sure to subscribe, leave us a review or send us a message. This podcast series is proudly sponsored by EML. As Australia’s largest personal injury claims provider, EML provide services to the workers compensation, life insurance and CTP personal injury markets. For over 110-years, the EML Group has proudly helped people get their lives back after a workplace injury or illness. The Mutual Benefits program reinvests a portion of EML profits into innovative products, tools, initiatives and services that are designed to improve outcomes for employers, injured workers, and the communities we support.​ Click here for the free resources available within the Mutual Benefit program to support psychosocial risk management in the workplace.

It’s what judgemental listeners have been waiting for. Our episode on reasonable management action is here!. Rated by our listeners as their biggest priority, Kate and Greg get the party started with the first of three episodes dedicated to reasonable management action. To kick things off, Greg shares and summarises the legalities of reasonable management action. As usual, Kate’s psychologist brain takes the conversation into a conversation with humanises the topic and connects the dots for listeners when it comes to psychosocial risk management. Have you ever considered the idea of reasonable management action? Have you examined the controls that exist when measuring and managing reasonable management action as a psychosocial risk? Where is the distinction between bullying and harassment, and an unsupportive leader? Grab a drink and settle in to join Kate and Greg as they open the door into this very complex area. Connect with us: LinkedIn – Kate Connors LinkedIn – Greg Smith LinkedIn – EML LinkedIn – Mutual Benefits Program Resources: Case law benchbooks , Fair Work commission Elemental Psychology & Coaching website Greg Smith – Safety Books Proving Safety and Paper Safe EML website EML Psychosocial resources – Mutual Benefitshttps://www.eml.com.au/news-community/latest-news/reduce-psychosocial-risks-in-workplaces/ Follow Judgemental: A psychologist and a lawyer walk into a bar Spotify Apple Amazon Youtube Be sure to subscribe, leave us a review or send us a message. This podcast series is proudly sponsored by EML. As Australia’s largest personal injury claims provider, EML provide services to the workers compensation, life insurance and CTP personal injury markets. For over 110-years, the EML Group has proudly helped people get their lives back after a workplace injury or illness. The Mutual Benefits program reinvests a portion of EML profits into innovative products, tools, initiatives and services that are designed to improve outcomes for employers, injured workers, and the communities we support.​ Click here for the free resources available within the Mutual Benefit program to support psychosocial risk management in the workplace.

To finish up the three-episode deep dive into leader wellbeing, we thought it important to provide airtime to an actual leader! Rachel Green is the CEO at SANE. Over the past 15 years, Rachel has held a range of senior executive roles and positions on Boards including the National Mental Health Commission, Black Dog Institute, Department of Health and Aged Care, ICLA, Department of Prime Minister and Cabinet, and SANDS. With such extensive senior executive, as well as subject knowledge expertise, the conversation was deemed “margarita worthy.” Rachel shares her perspectives on her greatest fear for Australian workplaces from possible unintended consequences of the WHS psychosocial regulatory environment, and shares the question she often asks when people seek her view when serious incidents occur with a link to mental illness…”have we considered if the system and services are adequately funded?” This episode’s topics range from visionary reflections on WHS and inclusion systems and policy level levers, all the way through to the personal toll of leadership on leaders. Thank you Rachel for joining us in the bar for this important discussion that doesn’t receive anywhere near enough attention. Connect with us: LinkedIn – Kate Connors LinkedIn – Greg Smith LinkedIn – Rachel Green LinkedIn – EML LinkedIn – Mutual Benefits Program Resources: Elemental Psychology & Coaching website Greg Smith – Safety Books Proving Safety and Paper Safe To learn more about SANE and / or offer your support to this amazing organisation website EML website EML Psychosocial resources – Mutual Benefitshttps://www.eml.com.au/news-community/latest-news/reduce-psychosocial-risks-in-workplaces/ Follow Judgemental: A psychologist and a lawyer walk into a bar Spotify Apple Amazon Youtube Be sure to subscribe, leave us a review or send us a message. This podcast series is proudly sponsored by EML. As Australia’s largest personal injury claims provider, EML provide services to the workers compensation, life insurance and CTP personal injury markets. For over 110-years, the EML Group has proudly helped people get their lives back after a workplace injury or illness. The Mutual Benefits program reinvests a portion of EML profits into innovative products, tools, initiatives and services that are designed to improve outcomes for employers, injured workers, and the communities we support.​ Click here for the free resources available within the Mutual Benefit program to support psychosocial risk management in the workplace.

It’s an exciting moment in the bar, as Kate and Greg welcome their first guest to Judgemental-podcast. Audrey McGibbon is an eminent thought leader in the world of leadership wellbeing, and the perfect person to tackle the complexity of the wicked problem of leader wellbeing. Can leadership wellbeing be measured? If it can be, why measure it? And what does leadership wellbeing have to do with psychosocial risk management? All these questions and more are explored as Greg, Kate and Audrey navigate the conversation in typical “Judgemental-podcast”….no silver bullets, honest reflections and different perspectives to challenge thinking, and increase safety and psychological literacy. This episode addresses the many complexities of how leaders and leadership intersect with psychosocial risk, and presents meaningful (so therefore not simplistic) ideas on how to respond. Grab your liquid of choice, and enjoy the company of Kate and Greg in the second episode of the deep dive conversations focussed on leadership wellbeing. Connect with us: LinkedIn – Kate Connors LinkedIn – Greg Smith LinkedIn – Audrey McGibbon LinkedIn – EML LinkedIn – Mutual Benefits Program Resources: Elemental Psychology & Coaching website Greg Smith – Safety Books Proving Safety and Paper Safe GLWS website EML website EML Psychosocial resources – Mutual Benefitshttps://www.eml.com.au/news-community/latest-news/reduce-psychosocial-risks-in-workplaces/ Follow Judgemental: A psychologist and a lawyer walk into a bar Spotify Apple Amazon Youtube Be sure to subscribe, leave us a review or send us a message. This podcast series is proudly sponsored by EML. As Australia’s largest personal injury claims provider, EML provide services to the workers compensation, life insurance and CTP personal injury markets. For over 110-years, the EML Group has proudly helped people get their lives back after a workplace injury or illness. The Mutual Benefits program reinvests a portion of EML profits into innovative products, tools, initiatives and services that are designed to improve outcomes for employers, injured workers, and the communities we support.​ Click here for the free resources available within the Mutual Benefit program to support psychosocial risk management in the workplace.

Kate and Greg are back in the bar, with the first ‘deep dive” conversation for season two: leadership wellbeing. Leader wellbeing is a long-standing area of professional interest for Kate, resulting in a conversation brimming with passion and fuel for thought! Kate shares detail on three reports to support the argument that leadership wellbeing is an area of psychosocial risk that is neglected by many organisations – ultimately undermining the effectiveness of not only an organisations’ risk management strategy, but any organisational change or transformation priorities. Kate asks the question – if leaders are such a critical dependency in effective psychosocial risk and change management, why don’t organisations design “safe systems of leadership” that support leaders to be who and how we need them to be? Grab a drink and settle in to join Kate and Greg as they connect “safety” and “psychological” literacy – all whilst having some fun along the way! Connect with us: LinkedIn – Kate Connors LinkedIn – Greg Smith LinkedIn – EML LinkedIn – Mutual Benefits Program Articles: National Mental Health Commission (2023). Promoting and protecting mental health for executive and decision-makers, National Workplace Initiative, National Mental Health Commission, Sydney Australia. Download here Kate Connors (2024). R Our Leaders OK? R Our Leadership Systems OK? A preliminary investigation in recognition of R U OK? And World Mental Health Days, 2024. Report can be downloaded via Elemental Coaching & Psychology website here Gallup (2024). State of the Global Workplace. Report can be downloaded here Resources: Elemental Psychology & Coaching website Greg Smith – Safety Books Proving Safety and Paper Safe EML website EML Psychosocial resources – Mutual Benefitshttps://www.eml.com.au/news-community/latest-news/reduce-psychosocial-risks-in-workplaces/ Follow Judgemental: A psychologist and a lawyer walk into a bar Spotify Apple Amazon Youtube Be sure to subscribe, leave us a review or send us a message. This podcast series is proudly sponsored by EML. As Australia’s largest personal injury claims provider, EML provide services to the workers compensation, life insurance and CTP personal injury markets. For over 110-years, the EML Group has proudly helped people get their lives back after a workplace injury or illness. The Mutual Benefits program reinvests a portion of EML profits into innovative products, tools, initiatives and services that are designed to improve outcomes for employers, injured workers, and the communities we support.​ Click here for the free resources available within the Mutual Benefit program to support psychosocial risk management in the workplace.

In the first episode of Season Two, Kate and Greg reflect on listener (and family) feedback from the first season and share not only their favourite conversation moments, but also expand on topical discussion points from episodes. The conversation heats up as they discuss statements which have been made in the psychosocial risk sector which misrepresent legal decisions. Kate and Greg share the plan for Season Two and encourage listeners to provide feedback on each episode, and ask for preferences for “deep dive episodes” into psychosocial risk areas. There is so much to cover in this season and episodes will be recorded based on listener feedback – what topics do you want to hear about first? Grab a drink, join Kate and Greg in conversation as they set the scene for Season Two. - Season One recap – lessons learnt and major talking points - The agenda for Season Two – so much to cover, where should Kate and Greg focus conversations? - Insights into Episode Two Connect with us: LinkedIn – Kate Connors LinkedIn – Greg Smith LinkedIn – EML LinkedIn – Mutual Benefits Program Resources: Elemental Psychology & Coaching website Greg Smith – Safety Books Proving Safety and Paper Safe EML website EML Psychosocial resources – Mutual Benefitshttps://www.eml.com.au/news-community/latest-news/reduce-psychosocial-risks-in-workplaces/ Follow Judgemental: A psychologist and a lawyer walk into a bar Spotify Apple Amazon Be sure to subscribe, leave us a review or send us a message. This podcast series is proudly sponsored by EML. As Australia’s largest personal injury claims provider, EML provide services to the workers compensation, life insurance and CTP personal injury markets. For over 110-years, the EML Group has proudly helped people get their lives back after a workplace injury or illness. The Mutual Benefits program reinvests a portion of EML profits into innovative products, tools, initiatives and services that are designed to improve outcomes for employers, injured workers, and the communities we support.​ Click here for the free resources available within the Mutual Benefit program to support psychosocial risk management in the workplace.

Join Kate and Greg as they regroup for a conversation in the bar to discuss the recent High Court decision in the Adam Elisha v Vision Australia case. This case was initially discussed in Episode 4, when the conversation was recorded from a LinkedIn live event Kate & Greg hosted in early 2024. In this episode, Greg summarises the High Court’s decision and distils the legal technicalities into manageable bite sized chunks – extremely helpful for those who find legal technicalities hard to digest! A summary? The High Court concluded that Mr Elisha’s loss was not “too remote”, and the precise psychiatric injury he suffered did not need to have been foreseen at the time the contract was entered. Greg provides listeners with legal takeaways and Kate shares her views as to how this decision challenges her quest for psychological injuries and their severity to be reduced in workplaces. But regardless, the discussion provides another perfect opportunity for the legal and psychological sides of risk management to be meaningfully discussed in a bar side chat. Choose your drink, settle down and listen in to this special episode that not only concludes the Elisha v Vision Australia matter, but also brings Series 1 to a close…. Stay tuned for Series 2! - Discussion of the High Court summary and the possible future impacts for employers - What does this mean for psychosocial risk management, and does it change the approach? Connect with us: LinkedIn – Kate Connors LinkedIn – Greg Smith LinkedIn – EML LinkedIn – Mutual Benefits Program Resources: The High Court decision paper - https://eresources.hcourt.gov.au/downloadPdf/2024/HCA/50 Elemental Psychology & Coaching website Greg Smith – Safety Books Proving Safety and Paper Safe EML website EML Psychosocial resources – Mutual Benefitshttps://www.eml.com.au/news-community/latest-news/reduce-psychosocial-risks-in-workplaces/ Follow Judgemental: A psychologist and a lawyer walk into a bar Spotify Apple Amazon This podcast series is proudly sponsored by EML. As Australia’s largest personal injury claims provider, EML provide services to the workers compensation, life insurance and CTP personal injury markets. For over 110-years, the EML Group has proudly helped people get their lives back after a workplace injury or illness. The Mutual Benefits program reinvests a portion of EML profits into innovative products, tools, initiatives and services that are designed to improve outcomes for employers, injured workers, and the communities we support.​ Click here for the free resources available within the Mutual Benefit program to support psychosocial risk management in the workplace.

It’s time for Kate & Greg to wax lyrical about one of the most challenging psychosocial risks – interpersonal conflict. Thankfully, the article published on LinkedIn by Karolina Dobson , referencing a study by Gutierrez & Bazeley (2006) brings an evidence base and helpful frameworks into the conversation so it doesn’t wander too far off track! Once again, the complexity of managing psychosocial risk is highlighted in this fascinating conversation. Are all psychosocial risks of equal “risk”? Are all conflicts of equal “risk”? And how do organisations navigate the reality that, just like with stress – not all conflict is harmful, and not all individuals have the same tolerance or response to conflict. Can’t we all just be “adults” and sort it out between ourselves when conflict arises? If only it was that simple…. If you are of drinking age and inclination, this is probably an episode where pouring yourself a standard measure of your favourite tonic will complement the conversation nicely. - A review and discussion of Karolina Dobson’s LinkedIn Article, “Applying traditional approaches to psychological injury in the workplace: Have we been barking up the wrong tree?” - Discussion of the research paper by Gutierrez, R and Bazely, P (2006). Workplace Psychological Injury: A Mixed Methods Investigation Into Workers' Compensation Claims. - The balance of healthy conflict and unhealthy conflict. Is all conflict in the workplace harmful? - Interpersonal conflict vs interpersonalised conflict Connect with us: LinkedIn – Kate Connors LinkedIn – Greg Smith LinkedIn – Karolina Dobson LinkedIn – EML LinkedIn – Mutual Benefits Program Resources: “Applying traditional approaches to psychological injury in the workplace – have we been barking up the wrong tree?” - Karolina Dobson, 2024 Published in: LinkedIn Elemental Psychology & Coaching website Greg Smith – Safety Books Proving Safety and Paper Safe EML website EML Psychosocial resources – Mutual Benefitshttps://www.eml.com.au/news-community/latest-news/reduce-psychosocial-risks-in-workplaces/ Follow Judgemental: A psychologist and a lawyer walk into a bar Spotify Apple Amazon This podcast series is proudly sponsored by EML. As Australia’s largest personal injury claims provider, EML provide services to the workers compensation, life insurance and CTP personal injury markets. For over 110-years, the EML Group has proudly helped people get their lives back after a workplace injury or illness. The Mutual Benefits program reinvests a portion of EML profits into innovative products, tools, initiatives and services that are designed to improve outcomes for employers, injured workers, and the communities we support.​ Click here for the free resources available within the Mutual Benefit program to support psychosocial risk management in the workplace.