Divergent States

What if one of the biggest things missing from the modern psychedelic conversation isn't another drug, therapy, or clinical protocol, but community? In this episode of Divergent States , 3L1T3 sits down with Mike Margolies of the Global Psychedelic Society , a worldwide network connecting hundreds of local psychedelic communities. They explore what community can provide that a clinic can't, and why problems like isolation, addiction, depression, and trauma can't always be understood solely at the level of the individual. Mike lays out a vision of psychedelic communities where education, preparation, peer support, integration, and relationships with experienced peers and elders form part of a larger social ecosystem. But community isn't automatically healthy. The conversation turns to the harder questions: How do psychedelic communities prevent themselves from becoming echo chambers? What happens when facilitators or leaders abuse their power? How do you create accountability without immediately resorting to public shaming or cancellation? And how do community organizations remain financially sustainable without becoming sales funnels for therapists, facilitators, entrepreneurs, or spiritual teachers? They also discuss the Global Psychedelic Society's decentralized model, the challenges facing local societies, ethical monetization, Zendo-style peer support, and what psychedelic communities could look like in a post-prohibition future. In the extended Patreon edition: Mike sticks around for a looser conversation about recreational psychedelic use, tripping at concerts, why psychedelic culture sometimes takes itself way too seriously, the "high holy hippies," and what his ultimate no-responsibility psychedelic experience would look like. Divergent States is independent, long-form conversation about psychedelics without the hype, gurus, or easy answers. Key Points 1. Psychedelic societies create spaces for education, integration, peer support, and community outside of clinical or ceremonial settings. 2. The Global Psychedelic Society connects hundreds of independent local communities rather than operating them as centralized chapters. 3. Many problems treated as individual mental health issues may also reflect larger problems of isolation, culture, and social systems. 4. Healthy psychedelic communities can provide support before, during, and after psychedelic experiences through trusted peers, elders, preparation, and integration. 5. Community isn't inherently positive. Abuse of power, ego, bad information, and group reinforcement can turn communities into unhealthy echo chambers. 6. Accountability requires learning how to have difficult conversations, including knowing when to call someone in, when to call them out, and when stronger action is necessary. 7. Local autonomy allows psychedelic societies to adapt to different cultures, laws, and community needs while still learning from a larger global network. 8. Sustainable psychedelic communities need ethical ways to fund their work without treating money or monetization as inherently corrupt. 9. Psychedelic organizations have to navigate conflicts of interest and prevent community spaces from becoming sales funnels for facilitators, therapists, spiritual teachers, or businesses. 10. The future of psychedelic community could include sustainable local organizations, permanent community spaces, better-trained leaders, and stronger connections between psychedelic societies around the world. Music is Grotto by Flintwick 00:00 Community Without the Echo Chamber 07:08 Meet Mike Margolies 09:13 The Origins of the Global Psychedelic Society 14:19 What Community Can Provide That Clinics Can’t 18:04 Are We Medicalizing Social Problems? 20:48 What Does a Healthy Psychedelic Community Look Like? 23:06 Power, Ego, and Unhealthy Communities 25:26 Accountability Without Cancel Culture 32:04 How the Global Psychedelic Society Works 38:15 Sustainability, Volunteers, and Monetization 41:28 Balancing Local Autonomy and Accountability 44:31 When Community Becomes a Sales Funnel 46:56 Zendo Project and Psychedelic Peer Support 50:45 The Future of the Global Psychedelic Society 54:41 Finding or Starting a Local Psychedelic Society 56:09 What Psychedelic Culture Needs to Change 57:40 Extended Edition Preview 01:01:29 Bryan and Lee: What Makes a Healthy Community? 01:06:23 Closing Thoughts Check out: https://globalpsychedelic.org/ Send us Fan Mail FiresideProject.org Download the app or text/call 62-FIRESIDE Zendo Project Our listeners get 10% off the Zendo Project SIT Program with the code DIVERGENTS10 Disclaimer: This post contains affiliate links. If you make a purchase, I may receive a commission at no extra cost to you. Support the show Special Thanks to our Macrodosers, Super D and Mike, and our Thumbprint Tier member, Angie on Patreon! https://linktr.ee/3L1T3Mod

There’s a big difference between having a psychedelic experience and actually doing something with it. Jonathan Schecter, host of Vital Point: Pathways to Integration and founder of Pathways Integration, joins us to talk about what happens after the breakthrough. Drawing from his own experiences with psychedelics, meditation, Buddhism, breathwork, somatic practices, and integration coaching, Jonathan explores the gap between having an insight and actually changing your life. We talk about why the biggest psychedelic experience is not necessarily the most useful one, the role of trauma and nervous system regulation, when psychedelic insights should be questioned rather than followed, and Jonathan’s distinction between “portals” and “pathways”: the dramatic experiences that can suddenly move us somewhere new versus the slower, less exciting work of learning how to live there. Because eventually the trip ends. You go home. Your relationships, habits, job, and problems are still waiting for you. The question is whether anything actually changed. In the extended Patreon conversation, we go further into the uncomfortable side of psychedelic integration: whether integration itself is becoming a product, whether some people would be better served by stepping away from psychedelic culture entirely, the medicalization of psychedelics, and why the obsession with heroic doses may sometimes get in the way of the work. Insight is not integration. A profound realization during a psychedelic experience does not automatically translate into lasting behavioral change. The trip is only part of the process. Preparation and what happens afterward can matter as much as the altered-state experience itself. Jonathan’s own path began recreationally. Psychedelic experiences eventually forced him to confront his marriage, relationship with his father, drinking, and the direction of his life. Meditation became a long-term pathway. Jonathan discusses more than two decades of Buddhist practice, including time spent living and practicing in Tibet. Integration should not mean someone interpreting your experience for you. Jonathan sees the facilitator’s role as supporting people while allowing them to determine what their experiences mean. Trauma changed the way he approaches psychedelic work. His own experience with shock trauma led to a greater emphasis on somatic practices, nervous-system regulation, and caution around intense altered states. Not every psychedelic insight should be acted upon. Sometimes the best response to a seemingly profound revelation is to wait and see whether it still makes sense months later. Portals and pathways serve different purposes. Psychedelics can create dramatic leaps or “portals,” while practices such as meditation, breathwork, and everyday behavioral changes provide slower and more reliable pathways. Integration is often repetition, not revelation. “Chop wood, carry water” becomes a central theme: lasting change often appears in ordinary relationships, habits, health, and daily decisions rather than another peak experience. Psychedelic culture deserves skepticism too. The extended conversation challenges heroic-dose culture, the commercialization of integration, the assumption that everyone needs psychedelics, and the idea that healing can simply be purchased. Music by Dyl👽Alien - Gaian Radio Transmissions Chapters: 00:00 – Insight vs. Integration 02:35 – Introducing Jonathan Schechter 05:28 – From Recreation to Intentional Psychedelic Work 09:25 – Meditation, Buddhism, and a Life-Changing Loss 13:19 – When Insight Doesn’t Become Change 17:04 – Becoming an Integration Facilitator 19:23 – Stan Grof, Breathwork, and Altered States 23:09 – The Problem With Gurus and Psychedelic Authority 27:24 – Trauma and the Myth of the “Bad Trip” 28:53 – What Does Integration Actually Mean? 33:28 – Should We Challenge Psychedelic Insights? 35:11 – Slow Down Before Making Life Decisions 38:17 – Portals vs. Pathways 41:18 – Repetition vs. Revelation 44:42 – Coming Home to Yourself 46:41 – What Actually Creates Lasting Change? 49:07 – Jonathan’s Work and Pathways to Integration 49:57 – Extended Conversation Preview 54:06 – Bryan’s Take on the Interview 55:51 – Why the Work Afterward Matters 57:04 – Patreon, Zendo, and Closing Send us Fan Mail FiresideProject.org Download the app or text/call 62-FIRESIDE Zendo Project Our listeners get 10% off the Zendo Project SIT Program with the code DIVERGENTS10 Disclaimer: This post contains affiliate links. If you make a purchase, I may receive a commission at no extra cost to you. Support the show Special Thanks to our Macrodosers, Super D and Mike, and our Thumbprint Tier member, Angie on Patreon! https://linktr.ee/3L1T3Mod

What can psychedelics offer when the question is no longer “Who am I becoming?” but “What do I do with the life I’ve already lived?” Abbie Rosner, author of Psychedelics and the Counterculture of Aging , joins 3L1T3 and Bryan for a grounded conversation about psychedelic use among older adults and the possibility of reimagining later life as a period of healing, meaning, creativity, intimacy, and renewed purpose. Drawing on conversations with 36 older psychonauts, Abbie discusses how maturity and life experience can change a psychedelic journey. They explore psilocybin and aging, mortality and the fear of death, unresolved trauma and shame, grief, spirituality, cognitive liberty, community, and what it means to consciously become an elder. The conversation also examines the practical realities often missing from discussions about psychedelics and seniors: medication interactions, heart health, medical screening, choosing a trustworthy facilitator, underground ceremonies, state-regulated psilocybin programs, commercialization, informed consent, and the limits of current research. Abbie also shares her vision for Elder Vision Circles, communities where older adults could prepare, journey, integrate, and support one another through the challenges of aging. This is not a conversation about finding a fountain of youth. It is about confronting mortality without surrendering curiosity, connection, or the right to explore your own mind. This episode is for educational purposes and is not medical advice. Psychedelics carry psychological, physical, legal, and social risks, particularly for older adults managing medications or existing health conditions. Psychedelic use among older adults is not simply nostalgia or an attempt to relive the 1960s. Maturity, therapy, meditation, loss, and accumulated life experience can fundamentally change a person’s relationship with altered states. Psychedelics may help older adults examine mortality before they are actively approaching the end of life. Later-life journeys can create opportunities to process grief, childhood trauma, shame, regret, and relationships that have remained unresolved for decades. Several older adults Abbie interviewed described their later years as the happiest and most authentic period of their lives. Conscious elderhood reframes aging as a stage of growth, creativity, activism, service, intimacy, and community rather than inevitable decline. Older adults face specific risks involving prescription medications, cardiovascular health, medical conditions, mobility, and psychological vulnerability. Trust, screening, preparation, and integration are essential when selecting a psychedelic facilitator or ceremonial setting. The distinction between psychedelic therapy, wellness, spirituality, and ordinary human meaning is often much less clear than institutions suggest. Abbie’s proposed Elder Vision Circles would combine education, community service, psychedelic preparation, group experience, and long-term integration. Music by Dyl👽Alien - Four Twenty Three Chapters 00:00 – Why Psychedelic Culture Overlooks Older Adults 02:36 – Aging, Harm Reduction, and Today’s Guest 06:17 – Abbie Rosner Joins the Conversation 06:24 – Returning to Psychedelics Later in Life 09:23 – Why Wait Until Death’s Door? 10:18 – 36 Older Psychonauts and a New Counterculture 13:44 – Psychedelics After 65 and the Questions of Later Life 17:23 – Maturity, Intention, and Conscious Elderhood 20:44 – Psychedelics and the Fear of Aging 24:27 – Letting Go, Mortality, and Living in the Present 28:22 – Love, Shame, and Reclaiming Life at 70 32:03 – Medical Risks, Medications, and Facilitator Screening 36:34 – Legal Access, Underground Ceremonies, and Commercialization 42:37 – Psychedelic Therapy Versus Psychedelic Wellness 45:26 – Integration and Becoming a Better Elder 47:12 – Alzheimer’s, Consent, and Ethical Limits 49:48 – Advice for Psychedelic-Curious Older Adults 51:17 – Reimagining the Meaning of Old Age 53:30 – Public Episode Close and Patreon Preview Send us Fan Mail FiresideProject.org Download the app or text/call 62-FIRESIDE Zendo Project Our listeners get 10% off the Zendo Project SIT Program with the code DIVERGENTS10 Disclaimer: This post contains affiliate links. If you make a purchase, I may receive a commission at no extra cost to you. Support the show Special Thanks to our Macrodosers, Super D and Mike, and our Thumbprint Tier member, Angie on Patreon! https://linktr.ee/3L1T3Mod

Machan Taylor has spent a lifetime using her voice. As a singer, songwriter, performer, and author of Naked Out Loud , she has worked with artists including Pink Floyd, Pat Benatar, George Benson, Hiroshima, Foreigner, and more. But this conversation is not about the glamorous parts of a music career. It is about memory, trauma, identity, and the parts of ourselves we leave behind. Machan joins 3L1T3 and Bryan for a grounded conversation about her memoir, her childhood in Japan, the grief of leaving her grandmother and first home behind, and the MDMA-assisted therapy session that helped her reconnect with the little girl she had carried inside for decades. Together, they discuss what psychedelic therapy can reveal, why integration matters, how performance can become both protection and belonging, and what it means to stop being defined by an old wound without erasing the story that shaped you. No hype. No miracle claims. Just a deeply human conversation about music, memory, healing, and the courage to be naked out loud. Music by Sndbagz - Days Gone Key Points: Machan Taylor discusses why she opened Naked Out Loud with MDMA-assisted therapy instead of her work with major artists. She describes the childhood trauma of leaving Japan, her grandmother, and her first sense of home behind. The conversation explores the whale image from her MDMA session as a guide back into memory and grief. Machan explains how MDMA therapy helped her emotionally understand pain she had only intellectually known before. The episode looks at trauma as an “operating system” that can quietly shape identity, belonging, and self-worth. Machan talks about the difference between changing the facts of a story and changing one’s relationship to those facts. The discussion emphasizes integration as the essential work after psychedelic-assisted therapy. Machan reflects on performance, applause, imposter syndrome, and the way music became both healing and protection. The Patreon section goes deeper into what actually happens inside a guided MDMA therapy session. The episode keeps a harm-reduction frame: psychedelic therapy can be powerful, but it is not casual, simple, or one-and-done. Chapters 00:00 Cold Open: The Journey Back 01:42 Introducing Machon Taylor 05:28 From Pink Floyd to Personal Healing 07:19 Why Begin the Book with MDMA? 09:23 The Whale That Led Her Home 14:12 MDMA Therapy and Childhood Trauma 19:42 The Body Keeps the Score 22:09 Going Deeper Than Talk Therapy 27:06 The Meaning of the Whale 29:09 Speaking to the Child Left Behind 31:40 Your Story Without Being Defined by It 34:36 Trauma as an Operating System 40:31 Performing, Identity, and Belonging 43:13 Healing the Younger Self 46:25 Naked Out Loud and Human Vulnerability 49:02 It's Never Too Late to Heal 50:37 Where to Find Machon's Book 51:34 Patreon Preview & Zendo Project 54:39 Post-Interview Reflections Send us Fan Mail FiresideProject.org Download the app or text/call 62-FIRESIDE Zendo Project Our listeners get 10% off the Zendo Project SIT Program with the code DIVERGENTS10 Disclaimer: This post contains affiliate links. If you make a purchase, I may receive a commission at no extra cost to you. Support the show Special Thanks to our Macrodosers, Super D and Mike, and our Thumbprint Tier member, Angie on Patreon! https://linktr.ee/3L1T3Mod

What actually happens when a psychedelic experience becomes overwhelming in the middle of a concert, festival, or crowded event? 3L1T3 and Bryan sit down with Case Newsom , emergency medicine physician and medical director of the Zendo Project , to explore the practical art of psychedelic peer support. Case explains why helping someone through a difficult trip often means resisting the urge to take control, offering simple choices, and creating enough safety for the experience to unfold. They also discuss Zendo’s integration with medical and security teams at Red Rocks, why emergency rooms can intensify psychedelic distress, and how compassionate on-site care can prevent unnecessary restraint, sedation, and hospitalization. Case shares how one major Denver event went from 54 hospital transports to 17 after psychedelic peer support was embedded alongside medical services. The conversation expands beyond festivals into the larger need for harm reduction, community support, and psychedelic literacy as these substances become increasingly accessible. Disclosure: 3L1T3 and Bryan are Zendo Project Ambassadors . They are volunteers, not employees, but may receive financial benefit when listeners use the code DIVERGENTS10 for eligible Zendo Project training programs. Learn more at ZendoProject.org . Key Points What psychedelic peer support looks like in practice The difference between supporting an experience and trying to control it Why presence can be more helpful than offering solutions How Zendo combines peer support with medical triage Bringing psychedelic harm reduction into Red Rocks Working alongside security, EMTs, and venue staff How on-site support can reduce unnecessary hospital transports Why emergency rooms can intensify psychedelic distress The importance of consent and non-directive language Supporting someone whose friends have abandoned or overwhelmed them The difference between a difficult trip and a traumatic experience Why integration and follow-up support matter Building safer systems for underground psychedelic use How this work changed Case’s own relationship with psychedelics Music is Hourglass Hustlin' - Flintwick 00:00:00 A Difficult Trip at Red Rocks 00:01:45 What Psychedelic Peer Support Looks Like 00:03:20 Zendo Disclosure 00:05:19 Meet Case Newsom 00:06:55 From Emergency Medicine to Zendo 00:11:08 The Origins of the Zendo Project 00:13:25 Supporting Without Directing 00:16:28 Learning How to Be Present 00:17:11 Receiving Peer Support 00:19:07 Resisting the Urge to Fix 00:20:32 Choices Instead of Control 00:23:19 The Mushroom Tent Story 00:25:39 Bringing Zendo to Red Rocks 00:27:04 Building Peer Support Into First Aid 00:29:26 Security, Medical, and Psychological Safety 00:30:24 Reducing Ambulance Transports 00:33:13 Why the ER Can Make Trips Worse 00:36:01 Stigma, Authority, and Trust 00:39:06 Creating Connection in a Crisis 00:42:41 The Gaps in Psychedelic Harm Reduction 00:46:33 Underground Communities and Safety 00:48:46 The Future of Zendo 00:53:06 Why Venues Need Peer Support 00:54:28 How Presence Prevents Panic 00:58:01 Closing the Public Interview 01:00:08 Episode Outro Send us Fan Mail FiresideProject.org Download the app or text/call 62-FIRESIDE Zendo Project Our listeners get 10% off the Zendo Project SIT Program with the code DIVERGENTS10 Disclaimer: This post contains affiliate links. If you make a purchase, I may receive a commission at no extra cost to you. Support the show Special Thanks to our Macrodosers, Super D and Mike, and our Thumbprint Tier member, Angie on Patreon! https://linktr.ee/3L1T3Mod

Dori Lewis is a psychotherapist, clinical supervisor, Natural Medicine Facilitator, and Co-Founder of Elemental Psychedelics. She also owns Reflective Healing Center, one of Colorado's licensed psychedelic healing centers. As psychedelic therapy moves from the underground into legal clinics and state-regulated systems, a difficult question emerges: what actually makes someone qualified to guide another person through a psychedelic experience? In this conversation, we explore the gap between licensing and competency, facilitator ethics, psychedelic training, integration, commercialization, spiritual authority, and the challenges of scaling psychedelic care without losing the human element that makes it effective. We also discuss Colorado's natural medicine program, the role of personal psychedelic experience in facilitator training, the risks of "guru culture," and why Dori believes psychedelics are powerful tools—but not magic bullets. In the Patreon integration segment, we go deeper into awe, mystery, institutionalization, underground versus clinical models, and what the psychedelic movement may still be unwilling to admit about itself. Music is Barefoot - Flintwick Key Points Colorado's legal psychedelic facilitation model What a facilitator license does—and doesn't—guarantee The difference between enthusiasm and readiness Why integration matters more than most people realize The "guru complex" in psychedelic culture Facilitator ethics and unconscious projection Licensing vs competency Commercialization and accessibility challenges Why psychedelic therapy remains expensive Insurance, legalization, and barriers to care Mysticism, awe, and psychedelic experiences The future of psychedelic care in the United States Why psychedelics are not a magic bullet Chapters 00:00:00 Who Should Be Allowed to Facilitate Psychedelic Experiences? 00:04:05 Meet Dori Lewis 00:04:12 From Psychonaut to Psychotherapist 00:06:01 Set, Setting, and the Ethics of Facilitation 00:09:01 Enthusiasm vs. Readiness to Facilitate 00:10:26 Building a Relationship with Psilocybin 00:14:39 Integration and the Psychedelic Guru Complex 00:17:14 What a Colorado Facilitator License Actually Guarantees 00:20:33 Common Mistakes New Facilitators Make 00:23:40 Projection, Accountability, and Ethical Repair 00:27:29 Institutional Blind Spots in Psychedelic Therapy 00:29:47 Quiet Ethical Failures vs. Obvious Misconduct 00:32:28 Romanticizing Boundaries and Difficult Experiences 00:35:26 Preventing the Accidental Guru 00:36:50 Can Psychedelic Care Scale Ethically? 00:43:28 Accessibility and Reasons for Hope 00:45:06 What Should Survive from Underground Psychedelic Culture? 00:46:37 Public Episode Wrap-Up and Patreon Preview 00:50:39 Final Takeaways with 3L1T3 and Bryan 00:52:55 Closing and Resources Send us Fan Mail FiresideProject.org Download the app or text/call 62-FIRESIDE Zendo Project Our listeners get 10% off the Zendo Project SIT Program with the code DIVERGENTS10 Disclaimer: This post contains affiliate links. If you make a purchase, I may receive a commission at no extra cost to you. Support the show Special Thanks to our Macrodosers, Super D and Mike, and our Thumbprint Tier member, Angie on Patreon! https://linktr.ee/3L1T3Mod

Former NFL player and College Football Hall of Famer Robert Gallery joins Divergent States for one of the most raw conversations we’ve had on the show. After retiring from professional football, Robert began experiencing intense rage episodes, suicidal thoughts, emotional instability, brain fog, and severe PTSD-like symptoms linked to repeated head trauma and brain injury from years in the NFL. What followed wasn’t a clean or simple recovery story. We talk about identity loss after professional sports, invisible brain injuries, emotional dysregulation, alcoholism, suicide ideation, veterans and athletes sharing similar trauma patterns, and why psychedelic-assisted therapy — particularly Ibogaine and 5-MeO-DMT — became a turning point in his life. This episode isn’t really about “getting high.” It’s about what happens when the system fails, your brain changes, and you’re left trying to figure out who you are afterward. We also discuss: The psychological cost of repeated head trauma Rage responses and emotional volatility PTSD similarities between veterans and athletes The dangers of untreated brain injury Why Robert nearly gave up hope Ibogaine therapy and psychedelic-assisted recovery Integration, routine, meditation, and rebuilding identity Athletes For Care and helping other athletes find treatment Patreon members get access to the extended Integration Session, where we discuss the risks of Ibogaine, safety concerns, treatment settings, and broader conversations around psychedelic therapy and harm reduction. If the public episode is the trip, the Patreon edition is the integration. Music is by [Drip] - Mr. Postman https://athletesforcare.org/ Chapters: 00:00 Intro – When Brain Injury Changes Who You Are 01:05 Why Football Trauma Is More Than Physical 03:41 Robert Gallery Joins the Show 04:05 Life After Football & Losing Identity 05:43 Rage, Anxiety & Early Warning Signs 07:51 Realizing Something Was Seriously Wrong 09:25 Athletes, Veterans & PTSD Parallels 10:57 Repetitive Head Trauma & The Cost of Football 12:10 The Brain Scan That Changed Everything 13:43 Suicide Ideation, Shame & Hopelessness 15:12 Suffering in Silence 16:22 Asking for Help 17:07 Why Vulnerability Saved His Life 18:15 Discovering Ibogaine Through Veterans 18:50 What Rage Actually Felt Like 21:12 Was It Really Him—or Brain Injury? 22:45 Trying Conventional Treatments First 25:12 Running Out of Options 25:39 Finding Hope in Ibogaine 28:07 The Decision to Go to Mexico 30:21 The Ibogaine Experience 33:39 5-MeO-DMT & "Turning the Lights Back On" 35:54 Coming Home Changed 38:01 Why Healing Isn't One and Done 39:28 Returning for a Second Treatment 41:23 Growth vs Survival 42:50 Building a New Life Through Routine 43:57 Athletes For Care 46:23 Public Episode Outro 48:28 Integration Session Intro 48:42 Misdiagnosis, Trauma & Identity 50:05 Anger, Trauma & Nearly Losing Control 50:40 Neuroplasticity & Recovery 51:16 Support the Show Send us Fan Mail FiresideProject.org Download the app or text/call 62-FIRESIDE Zendo Project Our listeners get 10% off the Zendo Project SIT Program with the code DIVERGENTS10 Disclaimer: This post contains affiliate links. If you make a purchase, I may receive a commission at no extra cost to you. Support the show Special Thanks to our Macrodosers, Super D and Mike, and our Thumbprint Tier member, Angie on Patreon! https://linktr.ee/3L1T3Mod

Dennis Walker joins Divergent States to unpack how psychedelic stories actually become “news,” why sensationalism dominates drug coverage, and how media narratives shape public perception around psychedelics. We discuss psychedelic exceptionalism, corporate psychedelics, satire as social critique, harm reduction, underground culture, MAPS, FDA approval, clinical gatekeeping, psychedelic tourism, and the growing divide between real-world psychedelic use and institutional messaging. Dennis is a journalist, satirist, and creator of Mycopreneur, known for blending humor, gonzo journalism, and cultural criticism to explore the psychedelic ecosystem from angles most outlets avoid. Topics: Why bad drug stories spread faster Psychedelic journalism and narrative control Corporate psychedelics vs underground culture Why satire works in psychedelic spaces FDA approval and clinical gatekeeping Psychedelic tourism and ethics The “good drug / bad drug” double standard MAPS, media narratives, and psychedelic exceptionalism Check out Dennis' work at https://www.mycopreneur.com/ Patreon supporters get the extended Integration Session and early access to episodes: patreon.com/divergentstates Music by Sandbgz Chapters: 00:00 – Why Psychedelic Narratives Matter 04:38 – Dennis Walker on Satire, Psychedelics & Media 08:11 – When Psychedelics Became Politics & Money 10:56 – How Drug Narratives Shape Public Opinion 15:27 – Why Satire Works Better Than Lectures 18:07 – Why Negative Drug Stories Dominate Headlines 23:32 – Good Drugs vs Bad Drugs in Media Coverage 28:26 – The Push Toward Clinical-Only Psychedelic Use 34:02 – Who Controls Psychedelic Journalism? 37:19 – The Missing Voices in Psychedelic Media 42:13 – Field Reporting, Community & Psychedelic Culture 46:16 – Social Media, Framing & Manufactured Narratives 50:26 – Building a Healthier Psychedelic Culture 55:00 – Patreon Integration Session Transition 58:13 – Final Reflections & Why These Conversations Matter 01:00:40 – Outro Send us Fan Mail FiresideProject.org Download the app or text/call 62-FIRESIDE Zendo Project Our listeners get 10% off the Zendo Project SIT Program with the code DIVERGENTS10 Disclaimer: This post contains affiliate links. If you make a purchase, I may receive a commission at no extra cost to you. Support the show Special Thanks to our Macrodosers, Super D and Mike, and our Thumbprint Tier member, Angie on Patreon! https://linktr.ee/3L1T3Mod

Psychedelics don’t fix your life. They don’t make you a better person. They don’t replace responsibility. And they don’t solve the problems waiting for you when you come back. In this episode, we sit down with Talia Eisenberg from Beond to talk about what actually happens after a powerful psychedelic experience—especially with ibogaine. What changes, what doesn’t, and why the hardest part is often what comes after. We get into: why insight isn’t the same as change what people misunderstand about “healing” the unglamorous reality of recovery and integration why some people aren’t ready for these experiences and what it really takes to make those changes stick This isn’t a conversation about breakthroughs or peak experiences. It’s about what holds up when the experience ends. 🎧 Music: Hyperspace — Sndbagz 🎙️ Divergent States is a podcast exploring psychedelics without the hype—focused on harm reduction, integration, and what actually works in the real world. Chapters: 00:00 – Psychedelics Don’t Fix Your Life 01:17 – Harm Reduction Matters (Zendo Project) 03:08 – Meet Talia Eisenberg (Ibogaine & Recovery) 04:05 – What Psychedelics Don’t Fix 06:32 – Agency, Accountability, and Hard Truths 07:35 – Addiction, Ibogaine, and Starting Over 10:04 – Life After the Trip: Real Change 11:25 – Optimization vs Avoidance 13:26 – Psychedelics Don’t Replace Responsibility 14:39 – Spiritual Bypassing (Ketamine, MDMA, Psilocybin) 17:11 – Why Ibogaine Forces Honesty 20:07 – Escaping vs Doing the Work 20:59 – Do Psychedelics Delay Change? 22:33 – Who Struggles Most After Psychedelics 24:08 – The “Reset” Myth 26:19 – What Actually Changes After Ibogaine 30:05 – What Doesn’t Change 31:41 – The Comedown: Emotional Whiplash 34:00 – Healthy Discomfort vs Avoidance 36:58 – Struggle Isn’t Failure 38:48 – Power, Clinics, and Psychedelic Ethics 44:19 – Red Flags: Gurus, Clinics, and Safety 47:36 – You Don’t Need Ibogaine 48:58 – What We Cut (Patreon Preview) 52:20 – Final Thoughts + Support the Show Send us Fan Mail FiresideProject.org Download the app or text/call 62-FIRESIDE Zendo Project Our listeners get 10% off the Zendo Project SIT Program with the code DIVERGENTS10 Disclaimer: This post contains affiliate links. If you make a purchase, I may receive a commission at no extra cost to you. Support the show Special Thanks to our Macrodosers, Super D and Mike, and our Thumbprint Tier member, Angie on Patreon! https://linktr.ee/3L1T3Mod

If one or two psychedelic sessions can produce measurable improvements in treatment-resistant depression, why does modern psychiatry still rely on daily medication? In this episode of Divergent States , we sit down with Dr. Steve Levine, psychiatrist and Chief Patient Officer at Compass Pathways, to break down their newly released Phase 3 clinical trial results for COMP360 psilocybin therapy. But this isn’t a hype piece. This is a critical look at what the data actually shows—and what people might be getting wrong. We explore: – What Phase 3 trials really mean (and why they often fail) – Why a “3.8 point improvement” is more significant than it sounds – The difference between clinical psilocybin therapy and underground use – Why one or two sessions may work—but not for everyone – The role of neuroplasticity, subjective experience, and “set & setting” – Why scaling psychedelic therapy is harder than it looks – The tension between commercialization and psychedelic culture – What FDA approval would—and wouldn’t—change Compass Pathways has now run over 1,000 participants across Phase 2 and Phase 3 trials, showing statistically significant results in treatment-resistant depression. But translating that into real-world treatment is a completely different challenge. This conversation pulls back the curtain on what it actually takes to turn psychedelics into medicine—and where the limitations still are. Because this show isn’t about psychedelics being amazing. It’s about understanding what’s true… and what holds up under scrutiny. 🎧 Subscribe to Divergent States for grounded, skeptical conversations in psychedelic science, culture, and harm reduction. 💬 Join the community Discord via r/Psychonaut (link in subreddit) 🎶 Music: Elemental by [Drip] ⚠️ This podcast is for informational purposes only and does not constitute medical advice. Chapters: 00:00 If Psychedelics Work, Why Daily Medication? 01:15 Why This Isn’t a “Psychedelics Are Amazing” Episode 04:00 From Daily Pills to 1–2 Treatments 06:45 Why Ketamine Wasn’t the Breakthrough 09:25 What Phase 3 Trials Actually Prove (And Don’t) 12:50 What Regulators Are Really Looking For 14:25 What a “3.8 Score Improvement” Actually Means 15:55 Psychedelic Hype vs Reality 18:30 What Actually Stood Out in the Data 21:40 Why Psychedelics Work Faster 24:55 Is the Experience Part of the Treatment? 25:45 Why Set and Setting Still Matter 30:10 Will This Ever Be At-Home? 33:00 Why Therapists Don’t “Do Therapy” Here 34:40 The Real Problem: Scaling Access 39:00 Commercialization vs Psychedelic Culture 43:00 What Are the Actual Risks? 45:10 What Success Looks Like in 10 Years 47:10 Why Access Matters More Than Approval 49:50 Why This Fails in the Real World 52:10 Outro + Patreon Integration Session Send us Fan Mail FiresideProject.org Download the app or text/call 62-FIRESIDE Zendo Project Our listeners get 10% off the Zendo Project SIT Program with the code DIVERGENTS10 Disclaimer: This post contains affiliate links. If you make a purchase, I may receive a commission at no extra cost to you. Support the show Special Thanks to our Macrodosers, Super D and Mike, and our Thumbprint Tier member, Angie on Patreon! https://linktr.ee/3L1T3Mod

This is the human center of The Many Faces of Coca. By the time coca enters Western conversations, it’s already been abstracted—reduced to policy, drugs, or crime. But for millions of people, coca isn’t any of those things. It’s daily life. In this final episode of the series, we speak with political theorist and anthropologist Manuela Picq, who has lived and worked alongside communities in the Andes and Amazon. This conversation moves beyond theory and into lived reality—how coca functions as food, medicine, memory, and community. We explore: – Why coca is not cocaine—and why that distinction matters – How prohibition reshapes entire communities – The generational loss of cultural knowledge – The role of women as keepers of coca traditions – How global policy decisions impact real lives on the ground – Why the war on coca may actually be a war on people If Parts 1 and 2 explored the science and history of coca, this episode asks a deeper question: What does it mean to live with this plant today? This is Part 3 of The Many Faces of Coca Featuring conversations with Wade Davis, Dennis McKenna, and Manuela Picq Chapters: 00:00 Intro – Coca as Lived Reality (Not Policy) 04:05 Who Defines Coca? (Culture vs Western Narratives) 09:51 How Coca Became Criminalized 13:22 Coca in Daily Life (Food, Medicine, Community) 18:02 From Tradition to Cash Crop 22:19 Who Pays the Price? (Violence & Exploitation) 25:45 Prohibition, Capitalism & the Drug War 28:35 Women, Knowledge & Hidden Traditions 33:37 Is Coca Control Really About Power? 36:32 The UN, Policy & Global Disconnect 40:09 What the World Gets Wrong About Coca 41:15 Closing Thoughts (End of Interview) 43:07 Post-Conversation Reflection (Why This Series Matters) 45:31 Where to Go Next (Series, Patreon, Discord) Send us Fan Mail FiresideProject.org Download the app or text/call 62-FIRESIDE Zendo Project Our listeners get 10% off the Zendo Project SIT Program with the code DIVERGENTS10 Disclaimer: This post contains affiliate links. If you make a purchase, I may receive a commission at no extra cost to you. Support the show Special Thanks to our Macrodosers, Super D and Mike, and our Thumbprint Tier member, Angie on Patreon! https://linktr.ee/3L1T3Mod

The Many Faces of Coca – Part Two In Part Two of the Many Faces of Coca series, 3L1T3 and Bryan sit down with renowned ethnopharmacologist Dennis McKenna to explore the science behind the coca leaf. Part One focused on history and politics with Wade Davis, this conversation turns to the biology and chemistry of the plant itself . What actually happens when coca is chewed? What compounds exist in the leaf besides cocaine? Why did human cultures independently domesticate coca multiple times? Dennis breaks down the alkaloid chemistry, pharmacology, and plant symbiosis that shaped coca’s role in Andean societies for thousands of years. Along the way, the conversation explores: • The three coca species used by humans • Why coca and cocaine are chemically and culturally different • The entourage effect of whole plant medicines • How alkaline activation changes coca absorption • Why coca chewing may help treat cocaine addiction • The scientific questions prohibition has prevented researchers from asking The result is a clearer picture of a plant that has been misunderstood for over a century. This episode is Part Two of a three-part series examining coca from history, chemistry, and lived experience . Part Three will explore how coca prohibition shapes real life in Andean communities with Manuela Picq. Key Points Coca comes from three main domesticated species in the genus Erythroxylum . The coca leaf contains multiple alkaloids, not just cocaine. Cocaine is only one compound within a larger phytochemical matrix in the leaf. Traditional coca chewing uses alkaline substances to increase alkaloid absorption. Whole plant use produces a broader entourage effect compared to isolated cocaine. Indigenous cultures independently domesticated coca multiple times across South America. Coca may help high-altitude populations adapt through increased energy, nutrition, and appetite suppression. Cocaine acts primarily as a dopamine reuptake inhibitor in the brain. Some evidence suggests chewing coca may help people transition away from cocaine dependence Chapters: 00:00 – What Is Coca? The Question That Starts Everything 00:44 – Major Psilocybin News: Compass Pathways Phase 3 Results 04:28 – The Many Faces of Coca Series (Part 2 Introduction) 07:36 – Dennis McKenna Joins the Conversation 08:09 – Coca vs Cocaine: The Botanical Reality 15:06 – Why Humans Domesticated Coca 18:23 – Why Humans Seek Altered States of Consciousness 26:06 – What’s Actually Inside the Coca Leaf? 31:31 – Why Coca Is Not the Same as Cocaine 36:48 – Is Coca Addictive? The Science Explained 42:23 – The Medical Potential of Coca 48:41 – Why Drug Laws Block Scientific Research 55:25 – What We Learned From the Chemistry of Coca 59:33 – The War on Drugs and the Economics of Coca 01:00:42 – Next Episode: The Human Cost of Prohibition Send us Fan Mail FiresideProject.org Download the app or text/call 62-FIRESIDE Zendo Project Our listeners get 10% off the Zendo Project SIT Program with the code DIVERGENTS10 Disclaimer: This post contains affiliate links. If you make a purchase, I may receive a commission at no extra cost to you. Support the show Special Thanks to our Macrodosers, Super D and Mike, and our Thumbprint Tier member, Angie on Patreon! https://linktr.ee/3L1T3Mod

In Part One of The Many Faces of Coca , 3L1T3 and Bryan sit down with Wade Davis to unpack the long history of the coca leaf and how a plant used for over 8,000 years became globally criminalized. This conversation isn’t about cocaine. It’s about coca. Wade walks us through: How coca was independently domesticated multiple times in pre-Columbian South America Why early 20th-century elites blamed coca for poverty instead of confronting inequality The 1949 UN commission that arrived with its conclusions already written The nutritional research that challenged decades of ideology How the modern international scheduling framework still treats coca as if it were fentanyl or heroin Why the recent WHO review maintained the status quo — and what that means We also explore the deeper cultural reality: coca as ritual exchange, spiritual alignment, social glue, and daily sustenance in the Andes. This episode lays the foundation for the series. Next, we move into the ethnobiology with Dennis McKenna. Then we examine sovereignty and lived realities with Manuela Picq. If you’ve ever wondered why coca gets ignored while other plant medicines dominate Western discourse, this is where we start pulling that thread. This isn’t nostalgia. It’s about policy, ideology, and whether a plant can be separated from the story told about it. Key Points Coca has been used for over 8,000 years in the Andes, distinct from cocaine. Cocaine is an extracted alkaloid; the leaf itself functions very differently. Coca was independently domesticated three times in pre-Columbian South America. The leaf contains significant nutritional value (calcium, vitamins, protein) and aids digestion at altitude. Early 20th-century elites blamed coca for poverty and social issues instead of structural inequality. The 1949 UN commission formed conclusions before conducting meaningful investigation. The 1961 UN drug scheduling framework still reflects that early ideological bias. Coca plays a central spiritual and social role in Andean cultures (ritual exchange, prayer, daily labor). Prohibition has fueled violence, displacement, and environmental harm in coca-growing regions. The core policy question is political, not pharmacological: can coca be separated from cocaine in law and narrative? Chapters 00:00 – 8,000 Years of Coca 04:19 – What Is Coca? 08:22 – Traditional Use & Preparation 14:36 – The 1949 UN Commission 23:10 – Drug War Consequences 29:23 – Coca as Cultural Foundation 33:40 – Why There’s No Public Constituency 43:35 – Coca vs Cocaine Extraction 46:00 – DEA, Cartels & Prohibition Incentives 50:47 – If You Remember One Thing 53:10 – Reflection & Series Preview Send us Fan Mail FiresideProject.org Download the app or text/call 62-FIRESIDE Zendo Project Our listeners get 10% off the Zendo Project SIT Program with the code DIVERGENTS10 Disclaimer: This post contains affiliate links. If you make a purchase, I may receive a commission at no extra cost to you. Support the show Special Thanks to our Macrodosers, Super D and Mike, and our Thumbprint Tier member, Angie on Patreon! https://linktr.ee/3L1T3Mod

Iboga has a reputation. It’s intense. It’s long. It carries real risk. And for some people, it’s life-changing. But what actually happens inside a retreat container? And what does this work look like behind the scenes? In this episode of Divergent States , 3L1T3 and Bryan sit down with Paije West and Fletcher Burdick, founders of ETEREO, an iboga retreat center in Baja, Mexico. Their approach sits somewhere between medical oversight and traditional ceremony, which opens up some thoughtful questions about safety, responsibility, integration, and how we talk about powerful medicines without turning them into mythology. This isn’t a hype piece. It’s a grounded conversation about: • The difference between iboga and ibogaine • Cardiac risk and how they screen for it • Why they sometimes say “no” • What ceremony actually does (beyond aesthetics) • Whether luxury retreat settings help or distract • Why integration matters more than most people think • And whether the field might be moving a little too fast We talk about neuroplasticity, structure vs freedom, tradition vs extraction, and what’s still unknown about iboga. If you’re curious about the medicine — or about how people try to hold it responsibly — this one’s worth your time. The extended, more personal segment continues on Patreon. Chapter Markers 00:00 – Introducing Bryan & Why This Conversation Matters 02:00 – Framing the Episode: No Miracle Claims 03:15 – What ETEREO Is (In Plain Language) 07:00 – What an Iboga Retreat Looks Like 11:20 – Iboga vs Ibogaine 14:30 – Ceremony: Structure, Not Symbolism 16:30 – Neuroplasticity & Set and Setting 17:40 – Who Iboga Is Not For 21:30 – Safety & Medical Screening 24:30 – Small Groups vs High-Volume Clinics 25:30 – “Conscious Luxury” — Does It Help? 29:00 – Stepping Away from the Real World 30:00 – Why Integration Is Everything 32:00 – Relational Healing 35:00 – Why They Don’t Track Outcomes Like Clinics 36:10 – Incentives & Avoiding Extraction 39:10 – Is the Field Moving Too Fast? 40:00 – What We Still Don’t Know About Iboga 41:30 – Final Reflections 42:00 – Patreon Segment Tease 44:50 – Closing Thoughts 🎧 Extended version available on Patreon 🎓 Zendo Project peer-support training: use code DIVERGENTS10 Send us Fan Mail FiresideProject.org Download the app or text/call 62-FIRESIDE Zendo Project Our listeners get 10% off the Zendo Project SIT Program with the code DIVERGENTS10 Disclaimer: This post contains affiliate links. If you make a purchase, I may receive a commission at no extra cost to you. Support the show Special Thanks to our Macrodosers, Super D and Mike, and our Thumbprint Tier member, Angie on Patreon! https://linktr.ee/3L1T3Mod

What happens when a 25-year career at CNN ends — and a new life begins? In this episode of Divergent States , we talk with Cesar Marin , former CNN producer and founder of Microdosing Over 50 , about how psychedelics helped him navigate midlife, identity loss, and personal reinvention. Cesar shares his journey from broadcast media to becoming an advocate for intentional microdosing later in life. We explore the difference between microdosing for healing vs optimization, how intention shapes outcomes, and why people over 50 face unique integration challenges. We also discuss: • Microdosing psilocybin vs LSD • Career loss and psychedelic-driven reinvention • Presence, connection, and integration practices • How media shapes psychedelic narratives • Why midlife may be the most powerful time for change • Healing vs performance framing in psychedelic use • Stigma, legality, and education • Building a mission-driven life after burnout This conversation is about more than substances — it’s about agency, curiosity, and what happens when you stop outsourcing your meaning. 🎧 Extended version available on Patreon 🎓 Zendo Project peer-support training: use code DIVERGENTS10 🧠 For listeners interested in microdosing, midlife transitions, and psychedelic culture https://cultivatingwisdom.net/ ⏱️ Chapter Markers 00:00 – Introduction & Cesar’s background 01:45 – 25 years at CNN and getting laid off 04:30 – Discovering psychedelics at 55 06:40 – Cultivating Wisdom & microdosing over 50 10:15 – Loss, grief, and mission-driven work 13:10 – What shifted personally 17:45 – Early doubts and first psychedelic experience 22:23 – Fun vs healing: why people stay 22:41 – How media shaped his psychedelic voice 26:13 – Bad headlines and stigma 28:26 – Why storytelling matters 29:18 – Midlife fear and reinvention 32:12 – “It’s not almost over — it’s just starting” 33:18 – Integration for older adults 37:55 – Meditation, presence, and connection 39:13 – Healing vs optimization 43:45 – Microdosing LSD vs psilocybin 46:36 – Psychedelic commercialization 47:47 – Public episode wrap-up 48:31 – Post-interview reflections 50:05 – Bryan’s takeaway 52:11 – Healing vs optimization framing 54:17 – Outro & Patreon plug Send us Fan Mail FiresideProject.org Download the app or text/call 62-FIRESIDE Zendo Project Our listeners get 10% off the Zendo Project SIT Program with the code DIVERGENTS10 Disclaimer: This post contains affiliate links. If you make a purchase, I may receive a commission at no extra cost to you. Support the show Special Thanks to our Macrodosers, Super D and Mike, and our Thumbprint Tier member, Angie on Patreon! https://linktr.ee/3L1T3Mod

What really happens when psychedelics change someone, and why do some people come back grounded while others spiral into ego, conspiracy, or spiritual bypassing? In this long-form conversation, comedian and science-minded psychonaut Shane Mauss joins Divergent States for a deep dive into what psychedelics do to the human mind beneath the mystical language. Drawing on neuroscience, cognitive bias, evolutionary psychology, and lived psychedelic experience, Shane explains how substances like LSD, mushrooms, and DMT increase mental plasticity, loosen rigid categories, and open the brain to new ways of thinking — for better and for worse. Together, we explore why altered states can lead to creativity, healing, and insight, but also why they can just as easily fuel delusion, conspiracy thinking, and inflated ego. We talk about the placebo effect, Dunning-Kruger, belief formation, and how access to infinite information can make people feel like they know everything while understanding very little. Shane also shares candid stories from inside the psychedelic comedy world, including how Tales From the Trip was secretly launched at Comedy Central, why he’s uneasy about the current psychedelic “gold rush,” and how mainstream acceptance has changed the culture. This episode isn’t about chasing cosmic secrets or mystical narratives. It’s about how the mind actually works — and how psychedelics can either help us become more open, curious, and flexible, or lock us deeper into fantasy if we don’t know how to think critically about what we experience. If you care about psychedelics, consciousness, and staying grounded in reality while exploring extraordinary states, this conversation is for you. Shane's new special comes out 2/18 on ShaneMauss.com! Special thanks to Drip who did the music, check him out on Spotify and Soundcloud! 00:00 — Season 2 Opening 04:18 — From Stand-Up to Science 07:40 — Creating Psychedelic Theater 11:40 — Why Psychedelic Comedy Was Taboo 14:50 — Tales From the Trip Origin Story 19:20 — Why He Doesn’t Feel Like a Regular Comic 23:40 — Comedy as Tension and Truth 34:00 — George Carlin and Big-Idea Comedy 38:20 — Psychedelics Going Mainstream 41:00 — Skeptical Psychonauts 45:20 — Seeing the Dark Side of the Scene 47:45 — Psychedelics, Categorization, and the Brain 51:30 — The Crunchy-to-Conservative Pipeline 54:00 — Dunning-Kruger and Illusions of Knowledge 57:10 — Why Science Is Counterintuitive 01:02:40 — Why These Conversations Matter Send us Fan Mail FiresideProject.org Download the app or text/call 62-FIRESIDE Zendo Project Our listeners get 10% off the Zendo Project SIT Program with the code DIVERGENTS10 Disclaimer: This post contains affiliate links. If you make a purchase, I may receive a commission at no extra cost to you. Support the show Special Thanks to our Macrodosers, Super D and Mike, and our Thumbprint Tier member, Angie on Patreon! https://linktr.ee/3L1T3Mod

Season Two of Divergent States is about something simple and surprisingly rare: exploring altered states without losing touch with reality. In this preview episode, 3L1T3 and Bryan share two short moments from upcoming conversations that define the tone of the season ahead. In the first, Shane Mauss reflects on how psychedelics open people to awe—but also to certainty, conspiracies, and belief systems that can replace reality if no one pushes back. In the second, Cesar Marin explains why presence and human connection are the real work of integration, not endless chasing of peak experiences. Together, these moments capture what Divergent States has always tried to do: hold space for wonder without drifting into delusion, depth without losing grounding, and exploration rooted in real human connection. Patreon supporters get extended versions of these conversations, including sections that don’t survive algorithm-friendly edits. But this preview is here for everyone—because harm reduction, presence, and honest conversation shouldn’t be paywalled. Welcome to Season Two. Chapters 00:00 – Welcome back & season context Introducing Season Two and why this year matters. 00:28 – What Divergent States actually is What the show is: harm reduction, not hype or spiritual theater. 01:05 – Shane Mauss: Awe, science, and belief systems The “ghost crocodile” and microscope analogy. 04:49 – Why psychedelics create both insight and delusion Reflections on pattern-seeking and certainty in psychedelic spaces. 05:20 – Cesar Marin: Presence as integration Connection, mushrooms, and staying grounded in real life. 07:17 – The power of daily human connection Kids, texts, meditation, and showing up. 08:55 – What Divergent States is really about Awe without delusion; depth without losing touch. 09:15 – Patreon & how to support the show Extended cuts, deeper conversations, and why it matters. 10:10 – Harm reduction & Zendo Project Why we partner with them and what the code supports. 10:50 – Closing & Season Two welcome Personal sign-off and transition into the new season. Send us Fan Mail FiresideProject.org Download the app or text/call 62-FIRESIDE Zendo Project Our listeners get 10% off the Zendo Project SIT Program with the code DIVERGENTS10 Disclaimer: This post contains affiliate links. If you make a purchase, I may receive a commission at no extra cost to you. Support the show Special Thanks to our Macrodosers, Super D and Mike, and our Thumbprint Tier member, Angie on Patreon! https://linktr.ee/3L1T3Mod

Dennis McKenna joins 3L1T3 and Valerie Beltran to discuss the future of psychedelics, indigenous knowledge, and whether we are ready to bring these tools into mainstream culture without repeating the extractive patterns of the past. We explore the gap between good intentions and real reciprocity, what Western psychedelic enthusiasm is missing, and how community-based practice may matter more than clinical models alone. We also dive into the first biomedical study of ayahuasca with the UDV, how long-term members showed surprising changes in behavior and biology, and why the community structure may have played a larger role than the compound itself. Dennis talks about the work happening at the McKenna Academy, preserving Amazonian herbarium collections, digitizing ancestral plant knowledge, and the ESPD Symposia. This conversation calls out the cultural side of psychedelics, not just the science. If psychedelics are going to help, they must be integrated with wisdom, not just technology. Join our Patreon for the exclusive extended interview! Key Points Psychedelics entered global awareness through indigenous stewardship, not Western invention Reciprocity requires more than money and acknowledgment The ESPD Symposia preserve ethnobotanical knowledge and make it public Efforts to digitize herbarium collections in Peru before they are lost Chapters 00:00 Welcome to the season finale with Valerie 01:10 Who Dennis McKenna is and why he still matters 04:50 What still feels unresolved after 50 years 06:15 Co-optation, capitalism, and indigenous knowledge 09:00 The ESPD symposia and preserving ancestral knowledge 12:40 Biognosis and digitizing Amazonian herbarium archives 17:00 Why preserving knowledge matters more than artifacts 18:35 The first biomedical study of ayahuasca with the UDV 22:45 Behavioral change, alcoholism, and community support 24:40 Serotonin transporter findings and biological mechanisms 27:30 Neuroplasticity and long-term structural change 31:00 Microdosing vs macro experiences 33:20 Default mode network and stepping outside the self 36:20 Separation from nature and cultural disconnection 38:30 Technology, AI, and cultural fragmentation 42:20 What real reciprocity might look like 46:50 Avoiding cultural appropriation and extraction 50:00 Psychedelics entering clinical models 52:45 Mushrooms as ideal symbiotic partners 56:00 Future of psychedelics in 10 years 01:00:20 Ibogaine as global brain reset 01:04:00 Evolution, partnership, and species symbiosis 01:06:00 Closing thoughts Thanks to Dyl👽Alien for the music! Send us Fan Mail FiresideProject.org Download the app or text/call 62-FIRESIDE Zendo Project Our listeners get 10% off the Zendo Project SIT Program with the code DIVERGENTS10 Disclaimer: This post contains affiliate links. If you make a purchase, I may receive a commission at no extra cost to you. Support the show Special Thanks to our Macrodosers, Super D and Mike, and our Thumbprint Tier member, Angie on Patreon! https://linktr.ee/3L1T3Mod

In this episode of Divergent States , 3L1T3 sits down with Betty Aldworth , the new co-president of MAPS, as she steps into shared leadership with Ismail Ali following Rick Doblin’s four-decade run. Betty brings decades of experience in drug policy reform, from Colorado’s 2012 cannabis legalization campaign to leading Students for Sensible Drug Policy, and now helps guide MAPS through one of the movement’s most pivotal moments: the FDA’s rejection of Lycos Therapeutics’ MDMA-assisted therapy application. We unpack the tension between science and advocacy, urgency and rigor, and explore what real access means for people living with PTSD. Betty offers a candid, emotionally grounded look at the FDA’s critique, the role of stigma, and how MAPS plans to keep pushing forward through education, policy, and global research initiatives. Later, the conversation turns to the larger movement: political support from both sides of the aisle, state-level reform models, and MAPS’ upcoming 40th anniversary in 2026. Key Points Betty’s path from SSDP to co-president of MAPS The FDA’s rejection of MDMA-assisted therapy: what it really means How “positive adverse events” became a sticking point in the FDA review Durability of treatment effects and the debate over long-term data Balancing activism, science, and education under MAPS’ new leadership model The growing divide between regulatory caution and patient urgency Grassroots and state-level psychedelic reform gaining ground The stigma that still shadows MDMA despite decades of data Harm-reduction advice for those seeking underground healing What’s ahead for MAPS’ 40th anniversary and new research directions ⏱ Chapter Markers 00:00 – Intro — Bryan’s stage play, today’s guest: Betty Aldworth 02:00 – MAPS’ new leadership and legacy after Rick Doblin 05:00 – Betty on stepping into the role and the three MAPS pillars 08:00 – From activism to leadership — lessons from SSDP 11:45 – Balancing research, advocacy, and education 14:00 – FDA rejection letter — what really happened 16:00 – “Positive adverse events” and the question of abuse potential 22:30 – Durability of treatment and COVID-era data gaps 26:30 – Prior MDMA experience and bias — myth or factor? 29:20 – Politics, science, and the credibility dilemma 32:30 – RFK Jr., AOC, and politicization of psychedelics 35:00 – Echoes of the 1980s scheduling fight 36:20 – What comes next — Phase III, audits, and resilience 38:30 – MAPS’ evolving research priorities & global work 41:00 – Normalization, decriminalization, and stigma 43:45 – Science vs activism — carrying both forward 48:00 – State-level reform and slow federal process 50:30 – Cannabis rescheduling and broader reform 52:00 – A message to people living with PTSD 55:00 – MAPS’ 40th anniversary — what’s ahead 57:00 – Closing reflections — stay weird, keep exploring Thanks to Dyl👽Alien for the music! Send us Fan Mail FiresideProject.org Download the app or text/call 62-FIRESIDE Zendo Project Our listeners get 10% off the Zendo Project SIT Program with the code DIVERGENTS10 Disclaimer: This post contains affiliate links. If you make a purchase, I may receive a commission at no extra cost to you. Support the show Special Thanks to our Macrodosers, Super D and Mike, and our Thumbprint Tier member, Angie on Patreon! https://linktr.ee/3L1T3Mod

Dr. Bronner’s Cosmic Engagement Officer David Bronner joins Divergent States for a candid, nuts-and-bolts conversation about building an “All One” company culture, pushing for psychedelic policy reform, and rewiring global supply chains to be fair, transparent, and regenerative. We trace the lineage from Rainbow Gatherings to Burning Man , from hemp activism to MAPS , and from commodity brokers to farmer-first vertical integration. Co-host therapist Valerie Beltran helps press on the tradeoffs: regulated access versus decriminalization, mission versus financing, growth versus grassroots. Key points The “All One God Faith” DNA , salary caps (5× lowest vested wage), and why profit is a means, not the mission. Why Dr. Bronner’s backed hemp early, fought DEA roadblocks, and supported MAPS , Oregon’s Measure 110 , DC decrim , and church-based access models. Regulated access vs. decriminalization : complementary pathways; cost, community, and safety implications. Purpose-aligned financing: why many mission brands drift, and how the emerging Purpose Pledge aims to solve it. Sourcing as activism: Ghana palm grown in multi-strata agroforestry; olive oil partnerships across Palestinian and Israeli producers; farmer income and soil health as first principles. Regenerative Organic Certification: weaving soil health, animal welfare, and fair labor into one consumer standard. Cultural lineage: Zendo/sanctuary work, AA’s Bill Wilson and LSD, Sacred Plant Alliance, and lessons from the Brotherhood of Eternal Love. Pitfalls and PR landmines: navigating blame and lawsuits in a fast-shifting policy landscape. Longevity over hype: why real soap beats detergents, and the quirky “punk rock soap opera” moment that proved it. Practical integration: moving from unitive states to everyday choices—diet, sourcing, and local service. If this conversation resonated, follow the show on Spotify/Apple, leave a short review, and consider supporting the work on Patreon to keep community-driven media independent. Special thanks to Sandbgz for the music! Follow him on Spotify! 00:00 – Intro & Setup 02:00 – From Burning Man to the Mic 04:35 – Origins & Rainbow Gathering Roots 06:25 – The All One God Faith Legacy 10:25 – Sourcing as Activism 15:20 – Mission Financing & the Purpose Pledge 17:35 – Building Roots & Staying Grounded 22:30 – Why Risk Psychedelic Advocacy 28:30 – Early Activism & the Hemp Wars 33:00 – Meeting Rick Doblin at Burning Man 37:00 – Decrim, Churches & Community Access 39:15 – Pitfalls & Lawsuits 40:30 – Choosing Battles & Lessons from Oregon 110 42:45 – Integration & Regenerative Organic Agriculture 46:45 – From Vision to Action 51:55 – Balancing Perfection & Pragmatism 55:45 – Longevity over Hype 1:01:00 – Heaven on Earth & Deep Time 1:03:45 – Brotherhood of Eternal Love & Rainbow Bridge 1:08:30 – Closing Reflections 1:12:00 – Outro & Patreon Call to Action Send us Fan Mail FiresideProject.org Download the app or text/call 62-FIRESIDE Zendo Project Our listeners get 10% off the Zendo Project SIT Program with the code DIVERGENTS10 Disclaimer: This post contains affiliate links. If you make a purchase, I may receive a commission at no extra cost to you. Support the show Special Thanks to our Macrodosers, Super D and Mike, and our Thumbprint Tier member, Angie on Patreon! https://linktr.ee/3L1T3Mod