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Published by The Philadelphia Citizen
Former Atlanta Mayor Kasim Reed, former Philadelphia Mayor Michael Nutter, and Philadelphia Citizen co-founder Larry Platt talk about what it really takes to get sh*t done in cities. New episodes twice monthly.
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"The problems we have as a country don't go away because the federal government leaves the stage," says Mary Ellen Wiederwohl, CEO of Accelerator for America, on the latest episode of How To Really Run A City. "All this stuff lands on the front steps of City Hall." And then what? That's what hosts Kasim Reed (former mayor of Atlanta) and Michael Nutter (former mayor of Philadelphia), along with Citizen Co-founder Larry Platt, explore with Brown University Professor Marc Dunkelman, author of the new book, Why Nothing Works: Who Killed Progress — and How to Bring It Back. "We need to rethink the balance between our impulse to empower central authority and the attempts to ensure that power doesn't do damage," says Dunkelman. Dunkelman highlights the push and pull of centralized power in U.S. politics, tracing a line from the Progressive Era of the late 19th century to the destructive anger of modern MAGAism. Reed weighed in with his experience. "Fair is harder," he says. "I believe in action-oriented leadership. Move faster. Be decisive. Be more inclusive, yes, but by god, do something." Join us for an unvarnished discussion about why trust in both politics and infrastructure continues to be broken in this country, along with steps we can take to actually make things work. As Dunkelman says, "There's a fantasy that if you just get everyone around a table, they will eventually come to an agreement. The truth is, we need deciders. That's why we have elections." Remember to subscribe to the podcast to keep up on all the latest episodes. And watch for new episodes on YouTube and Piksel+ as they become available. As cities go, so goes the nation!
In a very special episode of the podcast, our hosts soak up the wisdom of renowned 92-year-old former California Speaker of the House and San Francisco Mayor Willie Brown, a player still at the top of his political game. From jelly bean power plays in front of Ronald Reagan to pressure campaigns to free Nelson Mandela to candid thoughts on how to navigate the Trumpian circus in Washington, D.C., Brown is a well of bipartisan optimism and moral clarity. "I was the guy," Brown told former Atlanta mayor and mentee Kasim Reed, "who could tell you what your bill would do if enacted. And I would support it because it was the right thing to do. And in government, you must always do what is right." "You've laid out so many different examples of doing the right thing," said former Philly Mayor Michael Nutter. "We seem to be somewhat, nationally, dysfunctional these days." "But when you think about Willie Brown," said Citizen Co-Founder Larry Platt, "you think of a happy warrior … someone who fights with a smile on their face. That's what people want." "There's no question, that is my approach," Brown said with a smile. "And besides that, I like to party. No matter where I am, if a party can happen, I'm a participant in that effort." Join us for one of the most memorable and smile-inducing episodes of the podcast, a true masterclass in the art of politics. Remember to subscribe to the podcast to keep up on all the latest episodes. And watch for new episodes on YouTube and Piksel+ as they become available. As cities go, so goes the nation!
A recent report by Harvard University's Opportunity Insights revealed a sorry statistic for Philadelphia: We are last in the nation for economic mobility. In other words, we have a lot to learn from other American cities. On this special episode of How To Really Run A City, Citizen Co-Founder Larry Platt and former Philly Mayor Michael Nutter and former Atlanta Mayor Kasim Reed pull out their favorite moments from the last year of the podcast that take on just this issue. From housing availability in Detroit to help for small business owners in Scranton, PA to 15-minute cities and unexpected employment programs in Cleveland, the mayors and changemakers from this episode are demonstrating how cities can unlock their immense power, and how city leaders can become facilitators while spreading goodwill along the way. Remember to subscribe to the podcast to keep up on all the latest episodes. And watch for new episodes on YouTube and Piksel+ as they become available. As cities go, so goes the nation!
Milwaukee, WI Mayor Cavalier Johnson won reelection in 2024 with 80 percent of the vote. "Those are Vladimir Putin levels," joked Citizen Co-Founder Larry Platt. "The difference is, Putin's still looking for the other 20 percent!" said host and former Philly Mayor Michael Nutter. Asked why he decided to devote his life to public service, Johnson said, "I fell in love with helping people in my community. I mean, the key word in 'progressive' is progress. And mayors get stuff done. It's truly where the rubber meets the road in cities." From youth workforce development programs ("Ten-year-olds were being recruited to steal cars, here") to rejecting partisanship for the good of the city ("Bringing the RNC to Milwaukee in 2024 was a purely business decision") to his efforts to grow the population of Milwaukee to a million people, Johnson is out earning that 80 percent each day. "We have an awful lot of people who listen to this podcast that we hope will one day run for office," said host and former Atlanta Mayor Kasim Reed. "Right, I think it's important for the people to see their reflection in this office," said Johnson. "It's a powerful thing. It's all about service." Remember to subscribe to the podcast to keep up on all the latest episodes. And watch for new episodes on YouTube and Piksel+ as they become available. As cities go, so goes the nation!
Nashville, TN Mayor Freddie O'Connell was compelled to run for office on a simple principle. For too long, transit and infrastructure had been neglected by city officials. Upon winning his race in 2023, O'Connell's north star has been making it easier for Nashvillians to get around their city. "I don't know of a greater transit evangelist among the mayor fraternity than Mayor O'Connell," said Citizen Co-Founder Larry Platt on this week's episode. "My mom remembers a Nashville that still had streetcar lines," O'Connell told our podcast hosts, former Mayors Kasim Reed of Atlanta and Michael Nutter of Philly. "And then we ripped that all out. If you look at our old streetcar maps, we had a good transit system. I ran [for mayor] because I felt like we had priorities as a city that simply were not going to get addressed unless I forced the issue." Join us for a discussion during this year's Infrastructure Week centered on a blue city in a red state pulling every lever to reestablish customer-focused government and "trying every day to showcase that we've made the right choices" in infrastructure investment. But Mayor O'Connell isn't all work and no play down there in Nashville. He also moonlights as DJ Stay (he chose this nom de vinyl because "I want you to stay" in Nashville). "Our man says he's on the ones and twos," laughed Nutter, who knows a few things himself about spinning records. "I didn't have this on the bingo card for today," Reed said with a grin. Remember to subscribe to the podcast to keep up on all the latest episodes. And watch for new episodes on YouTube and Piksel+ as they become available. As cities go, so goes the nation!
When Republican Stephen Goldsmith was Mayor of Indianapolis, IN, he ran his city by "devolving" decisions down to the grassroots level. He created partnerships with the movers and shakers of local areas – community-based organizations, small businesses, faith leaders — to decide together how best to spend money in their neighborhoods. "Government had neglected those neighborhoods," he told our podcast hosts, former Mayors Kasim Reed of Atlanta and Michael Nutter of Philly. "And no amount of expenditures would have been sufficient if we couldn't lift up the civic infrastructure of the neighborhoods themselves." This, said Goldsmith, who was a deputy mayor under Mike Bloomberg in New York and is now a professor of urban policy at Harvard University's Kennedy School, is the true power of mayors: the ability to convene and inspire a city to greatness. Despite the circus coming from Washington, D.C., Goldsmith told our hosts that he has great hope for cities. "This is the time to be mayor, because if you want to lead, you can really make a difference." Goldsmith also garnered some unexpected praise from our hosts. "I was struck by your book, Putting Faith in Neighborhoods: Making Cities Work through Grassroots Citizenship, " Citizen Co-Founder Larry Platt told him. "I remember thinking it was a model for cities to follow." "This is exciting," Goldsmith replied, "You're one of five people who read that book. What sort of life do you live?" "We're working on it, Mayor Goldsmith," laughed Nutter and Reed. "We're trying to help him!" Remember to subscribe to the podcast to keep up on all the latest episodes. And watch for new episodes on YouTube and Piksel+ as they become available. As cities go, so goes the nation!
One of our favorite sayings here at How to Really Run a City is that there are really three political parties in the U.S.: Democrats, Republicans and Mayors — and only one of them have no choice but to be practical problem solvers. We believe if more politicians acted like mayors, there'd be much less bickering in D.C. Turns out, Bloomberg Philanthropies agrees. For the past six years, the civic-minded global organization has held the Mayors Challenge, a competition that awards cities $1 million prizes to spur innovative solutions to ingrained urban problems. This week, Challenge leader Aparna Ramanan and Challenge grantee, Lafayette, LA Mayor Monique Blanco Boulet, join former Atlanta Mayor Kasim Reed, former Philadelphia Mayor Michael Nutter and Citizen Co-Founder Larry Platt for an eye-opening conversation about what it takes to innovate in a city. (Lafayette's problem might sound familiarly stinky to Philadelphians: old, failing, sewers.) Blanco Boulet believes true innovation must start with a change of mindset. "Critical thinking is just not natural in government. If I don't know where we're having flood issues, I could just choose anywhere [to put the money]. That happens. That's not abnormal for government in the absence of real decision-making." Join us for an episode about cities tackling entrenched problems and the public-private partnerships like Bloomberg Philanthropies that support them. When it comes to facing these intractable issues, as Nutter said, "You have to deal with the consequences of not." Remember to subscribe to the podcast to keep up on all the latest episodes. You can even watch new episodes on YouTube. As cities go, so goes the nation!
Michael Smerconish is a Sirius XM and CNN host, a prolific political commentator, a nationally recognized author — and leader of the fight for a political center in the U.S., which means having a robust media. "I think the press is being hollowed out," said former Atlanta Mayor Kasim Reed. Local outlets are disappearing, the press is "functionally gutted; there's no longer a paper on your porch … and there's been a conservative effort to buy up local media because [it] still has credibility with folks." Smerconish is also an activist for voters who refuse to align with either of the two major parties. "I became so disenchanted with the Bush administration (W.) for their inability to go kill bin Laden," he said. He then swam against the tide of his own listener base by announcing his support for Barack Obama's presidential run in 2008. "How do you feel about that vote today?" asked former Philadelphia Mayor Michael Nutter. "Oh my god, I feel great about it," Smerconish said. "[My listeners] went crazy, but it was a breaking point and a wake-up call for me." Join us for a thoroughly entertaining and important conversation about what local leaders and citizens alike can do to break through the partisanship of the moment and start meeting each other on neutral ground. "Use the remote, mix it up," Smerconish said. "Don't rely on [others] to do it — do it yourself." Remember to subscribe to the podcast to keep up on all the latest episodes and watch the video on YouTube. As cities go, so goes the nation!
On this episode, our hosts, former Atlanta Mayor Kasim Reed, former Philadelphia Mayor Michael Nutter and Citizen Co-founder Larry Platt, invite onto the show a guest well-known to our mayors. Jannet Walker-Ford is a nationally recognized transportation expert who worked on the recently released Special Event Transportation — Guidance and Opportunities Playbook (SetGo) to help transit agencies navigate "mega-events" like the upcoming FIFA World Cup and the many semiquincentennial celebrations across the country. "How do you use these events for engines of future growth?" asked Platt. "It's part of our playbook," she said. "We want to sustain those collaborations and relationships, as well as changes in infrastructure, processing and procedures. [And] really pulling in stakeholders — that's the important piece." Another piece that's important: Everyday residents who still need to get to work or open their businesses despite large-scale disruptions. "You've got to be thinking about them and engaging the community so they survive the event," Walker-Ford said. "You're in a unique position," Reed responded, "who do you see out here getting things right?" Walker-Ford named former guest Mayor Karen Bass in Los Angeles, Seattle and Salt Lake City, Mayor Quinton Lucas in Kansas City — and even Philadelphia and SEPTA. "Getting stakeholders on the same page … can be tough," Nutter said. "It's great in our speeches, though!" Reed laughed. "It makes us sound super innovative." Join us for a timely conversation about how the United States needs to prepare for this blockbuster year when millions of visitors and celebrants will enter our cities and transportation systems. Remember to subscribe to the podcast to keep up on all the latest episodes. Watch and follow new episodes on YouTube. As cities go, so goes the nation!
Citizen Co-founder Larry Platt convened podcast co-hosts former Atlanta Mayor Kasim Reed and former Philadelphia Mayor Michael Nutter for a special episode about recent crises plaguing the leaders of prominent cities. "We are in a constitutional crisis," Platt said. "You have federal troops — masked law enforcement — doing these surges. The question is: Who's in charge?" "Folks should remember," Reed said, "almost always, the mayor controls the biggest police department. There is an incentive to make sure the people policing your communities are … people you control, by virtue of you being elected CEO of the city." Join us for a special edition of How To Really Run A City that examines the challenges of dealing with ICE ("To ICE, get the fuck out of Minneapolis," — Minneapolis Mayor John Frey) as well as snow and ice ("[Mayor] Cherelle Parker better not fucking forget about us!" — viral Redditor from North Philly). Mayors Reed and Nutter have weathered crises before, and they don't pull their punches on this episode. Remember to subscribe to the podcast to keep up on all the latest episodes. Watch and follow new episodes on YouTube. As cities go, so goes the nation!
On this episode, our hosts, former Atlanta Mayor Kasim Reed, former Philadelphia Mayor Michael Nutter and Citizen Co-founder Larry Platt, invite onto the show a new friend from the Citizen's recent Ideas We Should Steal Festival. Matthew Tuerk is a wicked skater. He's a punk-rocking tattoo connoisseur. He's a marathoner, and the popular second-term mayor of Allentown, PA who has made it his mission to bring back his city's manufacturing success. "This guy is a fanatic about economic development," said Platt. "He's turned Allentown into Pennsylvania's third-fastest growing city." "We had this idea that you could still make stuff in cities," Tuerk replied. "Soot and smog-filled cities are not what the future of manufacturing looks like. Manufacturing needs people. It needs good, high-paying jobs. There are a lot of folks that came to Allentown looking to tap into the American Dream. Empowering people should be our motivation." Then Platt prompted Tuerk to show off his unique Allentown flair. "I have the city seal tattooed on my chest," Tuerk declared, unfastening a few buttons on his shirt. "That's commitment," Nutter said with a laugh. Join us for an entertaining and informative episode about a city with its first Latino mayor "restoring a little bit of faith in the power of government to actually meet people's needs." Remember to subscribe to the podcast to keep up on all the latest episodes. Watch and follow new episodes on YouTube. As cities go, so goes the nation!
As mayor of Baltimore and then governor of Maryland, Martin O'Malley used transparency and statistics to drive his city and state forward into the Information Age. And then he — literally — wrote the book on the subject. His conclusion after more than a decade in public office? "We live in a time of enormous opportunity," O'Malley said on the latest episode of How To Really Run A City to our hosts, former Atlanta Mayor Kasim Reed, former Philadelphia Mayor Michael Nutter and Citizen Co-founder Larry Platt. "It's the dawning of the Third Industrial Revolution. People want to believe that tomorrow can be better than today." O'Malley, a former Social Security Administration Commissioner and Irish clan chieftain, knows the stakes of the current political moment. Yes, you have to lead with joy. But to get people back from the brink of political despair, you've got to get shit done at the local level, because if we can't deliver the goods of a republic – the services that make a republic worth having — then we can't blame people for not following us. "Over the last 20 years," O'Malley said, "trust in the federal government has fallen to an all-time low. But trust in local government – in city government – has held steady." Join us for a no-nonsense episode with a no-nonsense leader who knows how to get shit done at multiple governing levels — and whose prescription for both his Democratic party and the country write large are lessons we should learn to preserve what matters about living in America. Remember to subscribe to the podcast to keep up on all the latest episodes. Watch and follow new episodes on YouTube. As cities go, so goes the nation!
This special episode was recorded live at The Philadelphia Citizen's eighth annual Ideas We Should Steal Festival presented by Comcast NBCUniversal. Our hosts, former Philadelphia Mayor Michael Nutter, former Atlanta Mayor Kasim Reed and Citizen Media Group President and CEO Larry Platt were joined on stage by a return guest, five-term Rochester Hills, Michigan Mayor Bryan Barnett, a Republican. Barnett is a consummate showman, as evidenced by his increasingly elaborate State of the City addresses (full-scale musical productions). Here, Barnett and the hosts discuss the importance of leading a city with joy and finesse, and how the Democratic party is fumbling the ball — in messaging and in the recent government shutdown. As Mayor Barnett points out, there really is no Republican or Democrat way to fill a pothole. You just fill the pothole. "The moment you put your foot on the sidewalk," Nutter responded, "people are looking to see how's the mayor doing? Is the city upbeat? Is it grumpy? There's a public impact to this job." Join us as we dive back into Rochester Hills with Mayor Barnett and explore how to really run a city with style and good humor. Remember to subscribe to the podcast to keep up on all the latest episodes. Watch and follow new episodes on YouTube. As cities go, so goes the nation!
"I don't care if you live in urban America or rural America, everyone wants the same thing," Cleveland Mayor Justin Bibb said on the latest episode of How To Really Run A City . "They want a job they can get to in 15 minutes, they want a hospital or pharmacy within 15 minutes, they want a park or a grocery store or bars or restaurants, all within 15 minutes." Bibb went on to explain to our hosts, former Philly mayor Michael Nutter and former Atlanta mayor Kasim Reed, how he is turning his Ohio city into a convenient, accessible, bona fide 15-minute city — and what is needed to sustain that work. "People really want walkability," Bibb said. "They want safety and thriving neighborhoods and overall thriving cities. But we as mayors can't do this by ourselves. We need a federal government that's actually working. It has to be working with our governors and mayors." Bibb, a charismatic 38-year-old (and cousin to the first Black primetime newscaster in Ohio), will almost certainly be reelected next week, and both Reed and Nutter quickly picked up on his "get sh*t done" vibe. "A mayor is a reflection of their city," Reed said, "how it feels and how it will be there [for its people]." "Absolutely," Nutter said. Join us for an episode about a mayor who is laser-focused on making the lives of his constituents better in ways that anyone taking a stroll to the park can feel. Remember to subscribe to the podcast to keep up on all the latest episodes. Watch and follow new episodes on YouTube. As cities go, so goes the nation!
On this episode of How To Really Run A City , innovation in cities takes a backseat to a more pressing question: How do we find our way back to recognizing the humanity in one another? Our guest: Joe Walsh, a former Representative from Illinois. He was a self-described Tea Party arsonist, right-wing radio provocateur and mentor to Turning Point USA's Charlie Kirk. All of that changed when Donald Trump rode down an escalator and completely captured the Republican Party. "It was never this way with Reagan, with Bush, with old-man Bush, this is something completely different," Walsh told our hosts, former Philly Mayor Michael Nutter and Citizen Co-founder Larry Platt. (Former Atlanta Mayor Kasim Reed was unable to attend.) Walsh's public split from his party made him a target of MAGA loyalists, who to this day threaten him and his family. Still, he's not backing down. "I helped to divide this country," Walsh said. "People like me helped put us on this road. I have to live with that." As a newly-minted Democrat, Walsh tours the country connecting with people from across the political spectrum. "Do you leave these conversations hopeful or less hopeful?" Platt asked. "I'm right down the middle," Walsh said. "Half the folk out there are ready for a national divorce. They tell me, 'Joe, I want it to be peaceful, but we just can't coexist anymore.'" Listen to this episode now for a passionate conversation about a return to civility and the true stakes of our national debate with a public figure who describes himself as a former "political asshole" trying to make amends. And for more from Walsh, join us at The Citizen's 8th annual Ideas We Should Steal Festival, presented by Comcast NBCUniversal, where he will talk with former foe-turned-friend Fred Guttenberg, a gun rights activist who lost his daughter in the Parkland school shooting. Remember to subscribe to the podcast to keep up on all the latest episodes. Watch and follow new episodes on YouTube. As cities go, so goes the nation!
When Detroit Mayor Mike Duggan took office in 2013, his city had just filed for the largest municipal bankruptcy in U.S. history. Today, business is booming, crime has fallen to a 60-year low and it's no understatement to say that Detroit is back. Mayor Duggan, now running for governor of his state as an Independent, joins former Mayors Michael Nutter and Kasim Reed, along with Citizen Co-founder Larry Platt on this episode of How To Really Run A City to roll up their sleeves and lift the hood of Detroit's success. "The last time a [Detroit] City Council member was elected mayor was 1947," Mayor Duggan told our hosts. "For the last 75 years, the city was going so badly that nobody wanted to vote for anyone who had been associated with it. My successor, who won the primary in a landslide, is president of City Council. It shows how much politics has changed. People are proud of their city government now." "You decided to run as a White man for mayor of Detroit," Reed said. "What were the mechanics of that decision?" "Sometimes I was the only White person in the room for six blocks around," Duggan responded. "But I listened to very powerful stories. And it's a funny thing, when you sit in people's homes and break bread with them, what divides us fades to the background. The average Detroiter isn't interested in us vs. them, they just want a better quality of life." Join us for a powerful conversation about turning an entire city around, despite the challenges and barriers that had entrenched decades of decline. Remember to subscribe to the podcast to keep up on all the latest episodes. Watch and follow new episodes on YouTube . As cities go, so goes the nation!
When Denver, Colorado Mayor Mike Johnston isn't sparring with congressional Republicans over immigration (and being threatened with jail time), he's pushing his city to eliminate homelessness, continuing his crusade for high-quality, affordable education and inspiring Denverites to give five hours of volunteer service each month. "I love the Give5 Mile High program," said Citizen co-founder Larry Platt. "It's kind of the answer to Trumpism, right? All of us coming together in common purpose?" On this episode of How To Really Run A City, former Mayor Michael Nutter and former Mayor Kasim Reed, with Platt, join Mayor Johnston to dissect the initiatives that are making Denver a prosperous and communitarian city for all its citizens. "What I try to do is bind people," Johnston says. "I bind together people that are broken. I bind together people who have been pulled apart from each other. I feel like this is the work mayors are called to do." "And that's why we do this podcast," Reed says. "It is so important for people who care about this country to hear stories like yours." Join us for an energizing conversation about everyday citizens rising to meet the expectations of their city and charting a path out of the tribalism that grips the nation. Remember to subscribe to the podcast to keep up on all the latest episodes. Watch and follow new episodes on YouTube . As cities go, so goes the nation!
"Just keep doing the next right thing, even though it's hard." This mantra has become a political north star for Scranton mayor and recurring How To Really Run A City guest (and sometimes host), Paige Cognetti. She knows that what drives a city forward is everyone doing their parts at all levels. "It's the colleges and universities," former Mayor Michael Nutter interjects. "It's the corporate communities. It's the committee people. It's the block captains. Cities are living, breathing entities." Cognetti and Nutter recently joined Citizen co-founder Larry Platt for a special live taping of the podcast at Philadelphia's OpportUNITY Summit hosted by United Way of Greater Philadelphia and Southern New Jersey. It was a rousing conversation that included a lot of teasing of Nutter by Cognetti, but also included some high-minded reminders that the future of cities depends on practical local government reformers. "What can all of us do to move the [political] needle back to sanity?" Platt asked. "Tell the stories that reflect your reality," Cognetti said. "Vote," Nutter immediately answered. "Put down the phone, go to the voting booth and do your thing. Then you can get back to TikTok. Better yet, make a video about how you voted!" Join us for an uplifting live conversation about civic duty and the motivations of true city changemakers. Remember to subscribe to the podcast to keep up on all the latest episodes. Watch and follow new episodes on YouTube . As cities go, so goes the nation!
The AI revolution is upon us, and it will certainly have an impact on local governance. "Let's have an open conversation about its use," says this week's podcast guest, Rochelle Haynes, Managing Director of Bloomberg Philanthropies' What Works Cities initiative at Results for America. Haynes, who previously served as Chief of Staff at New York City's Department of Homeless Services, saw firsthand what happens when policy and politics clash. "A lot of fears out there are about losing jobs," she continued. "But we need to show people that this is about making your job more effective. The human touch is still needed. AI is just the tool to [streamline] the data and priorities for cities." Join us for an episode about what local leaders are doing to take advantage of the coming technology and, as Mayor Reed says, "really move the needle" on focused, effective governing. Remember to subscribe to the podcast to keep up on all the latest episodes. You can even watch the conversation play out on YouTube. As cities go, so goes the nation!
While Washington implodes and other cities resist, Riverside, CA Mayor Patricia Lock Dawson is moving ahead with an ambitious tech agenda — and battling youth homelessness in her city. "I feel positive about the direction California is taking," says Riverside, CA Mayor Patricia Lock Dawson, our guest this week on How To Really Run A City. In the wake of reduced support from Washington, D.C., she optimistically declares, "We'll find our way forward. We'll keep fighting." In this episode, former Atlanta Mayor Kasim Reed joins guest host Scranton, PA Mayor Paige Cognetti, fresh off a stunning primary win. "I think a local leader's superpower is empathy," Reed says. "You have to feel what they feel." "You can't ever lose that feeling of being a constituent yourself," Lock Dawson concurred. Join us for a special episode about being a woman in office, mirroring the best qualities of your citizens and building a vibrant, growing city despite the politics in Washington. Remember to subscribe to the podcast to keep up on all the latest episodes. You can even watch the conversation play out on YouTube . As cities go, so goes the nation!
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Observed September 20, 2026.
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