Learning How to See with Brian McLaren

In today's episode, our hosts Brian McLaren, Randy Woodley, and Edith Woodley explore the story of Cain and Abel through a lens of Indigenous wisdom, considering the origins of human violence and the contrast between “earth people” and “empire people.” Together they reflect on harmony, balance, and the Biblical call to be our “brother’s keeper.”  Listen in as our hosts unpack Genesis 4 alongside a Cherokee story of the terrapin and the wolves, consider how violence and domination shape human communities — and how choosing nonviolence and reciprocity can help us find another way.  Resources:  Find the transcript for today's episode here. Learn more about the Woodleys and Eloheh here.  Pick up a copy of Randy’s new book, How Western Christianity Got It Wrong.  Journey to Eloheh by Randy and Edith Woodley explores how Indigenous values lead us to harmony and well-being.  Discover more about composer April Stace ⁠here. Connect with us:   Have a question you’d like Brian, Randy, or Edith to answer about this season?   Email us: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠podcasts@cac.org⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠   Email us: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠podcasts@cac.org⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠  

Welcome to the 10th season of Learning How to See hosted by Brian McLaren and guest hosts Rev. Dr. Randy Woodley and Edith Woodley. In today's episode, our hosts examine Genesis 1 through the lens of Indigenous wisdom, contrasting “earth people” with “empire people.” “Earth people” understand themselves as part of an interconnected web of life and practice caring for the land. “Empire people,” instead, emphasize domination and control.   Join us at our Bible study, as Brian, Edith, and Randy unpack Genesis 1, and invite us to consider how we hear and interpret the Bible. Find the transcript for this episode here. Resources:  Learn more about the Woodleys and Eloheh here.  Pick up a copy of Randy’s new book, How Western Christianity Got It Wrong.  Journey to Eloheh by Randy and Edith Woodley explores how Indigenous values lead us to harmony and well-being.  Discover more about composer April Stace here. Connect with us:   Have a question you’d like Brian, Randy, or Edith to answer about this season?   Email us: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠podcasts@cac.org⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠   Send us a voicemail: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠cac.org/voicemail⁠⁠⁠⁠ 

Season Ten begins September 10th! This season on Learning How to See, host Brian McLaren and co-hosts Randy and Edith Woodley will focus on experiencing the Biblical text with a heart of seeking and curiosity. Brief readings from the book of Genesis will be followed by essays or stories with themes similar to that of the Biblical passages. The episodes will conclude with round-table conversations about the ways we see and experience stories differently. For faith reclaimers eager to help heal a hurting world, reimagine Christianity as a path of compassion, justice, and care for creation on Learning How to See: The Bible. Join us in exploring the book of Genesis through fresh perspectives rooted in wonder, wisdom, and lived experience.

Today Brian and Carmen address your questions including a deeper dive into Carmen's translation of Corinthians 13, what we mean when talk about love, and tips for knowing when to leave. Resources: Find the transcript for this episode here.

What do we do when life unravels in painful ways — like navigating an unexpected divorce? On today's episode of Learning How to See, Carmen and Brian are joined by New York Times Bestselling author Jen Hatmaker. With great humor and authenticity, Jen takes us through the vulnerable experience of sharing her story, the transformation she went through after loss, and the spiritual power of starting over. Jen reflects on themes from her new memoir Awake,⁠ and shares how her divorce helped her trust her inner knowing, become more fully embodied, and rebuild a life rooted in integrity rather than expectation. Tune in to discover how community and self-compassion can guide us through seasons of upheaval — and how choosing honesty can become its own form of liberation. Resources: Pick up a copy of Jen's latest book, Awake, here. Learn more about Jen here. Find the transcript for today's episode here. Connect with us: Have a question you’d like Brian or Carmen to answer about this season? Email us: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠podcasts@cac.org⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Send us a voicemail: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠cac.org/voicemail⁠⁠⁠

How can we see others, and ourselves, with love when anger, fear, depression, or division clouds our vision? Today's episode of Learning How to See features an interview with Quaker elder Parker J. Palmer. Parker helps us explore how love can become a way of seeing, how we can navigate times of depression, and why listening to each other’s life stories may be our best antidote to polarization. Join us as Parker reflects on encounters that reshaped his assumptions about “the other,” sharing insights from decades of Quaker practice. Resources: Subscribe to Parker's Substack here. Learn more about the Center for Renewal and Courage here. Follow Parker on Facebook here. Find the transcript for this episode here. Connect with us: Have a question you’d like Brian or Carmen to answer about this season? Email us: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠podcasts@cac.org⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Send us a voicemail: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠cac.org/voicemail⁠⁠⁠

How can we de-Westernize spirituality and honor our full humanity within systems that often diminish it? On this episode of Learning How to See, Dr. Cindy Lee, a spiritual director and author, joins hosts Brian McLaren and Carmen Acevedo Butcher for a conversation on de-Westernizing spirituality and holding space for the lived experience of others. Cindy shares how her work with BIPOC communities revealed the limits of Westernized spiritual formation, and how confronting the “Western missionary gaze” can open us to seeing our cultures — and ourselves — with dignity rather than judgment. Resources: Read Howard Thurman's "The Sound of the Genuine" here. Find the transcript of this episode⁠ ⁠here.⁠⁠ Connect with us: Have a question you’d like Brian or Carmen to answer about this season? Send us a voicemail: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠cac.org/voicemail⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Email us: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠podcasts@cac.org⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

How do we soften our hearts to those whose values are in stark contrast to our own? Can we safely love those who have even gone so far as to harm us? On this episode of Learning How to See, Dr. Cassidy Hall, author of Queering Contemplation, poses these tough questions to our hosts Brian McLaren and Carmen Acevedo Butcher. Together, they explore how we can respond with integrity when our deepest values are met with opposition. Through personal stories, Brian and Carmen model ways in which they’ve grappled with loving in the face of persecution, strained family dynamics, and systemic incongruities with their own values. Resources: Discover more about Dr. Cassidy Hall ⁠here. Find the transcript of this episode⁠ here.⁠ Connect with us: Have a question you’d like Brian or Carmen to answer about this season? Send us a voicemail: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠cac.org/voicemail⁠⁠⁠⁠ Email us: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠podcasts@cac.org⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

How can we open ourselves to being hosts in the world? On this episode of Learning How To See, we hear from social entrepreneur Becca Stevens, founder of Thistle Farms, a nonprofit which provides sanctuary, employment, and hope for women survivors of trafficking, exploitation, and addiction. Becca invites us to see holiness in unlikely places — just like the thistle growing through cracks in the pavement. In the ninth season of Learning How To See, we continue to learn how to see through the eyes of love. Our hosts Brian McLaren and Carmen Acevedo Butcher reflect on what it means to stay present when love feels complicated. Resources: Find out more about Becca here. Find out more about Thistle Farms here. Pick up a copy of Becca's book, Snake Oil, here. Find the transcript of this episode here. Connect with us: Have a question you’d like Brian or Carmen to answer about this season Send us a voicemail: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠cac.org/voicemail⁠⁠⁠ Email us: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠podcasts@cac.org⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

It can feel easy to offer compassion to others. But, why is it so hard to extend that same tenderness to ourselves? In Season 9 of Learning How To See, we continue to learn how to see through the eyes of love. On this season premiere, author and storyteller Kaitlin Curtice joins our hosts Brian McLaren and Carmen Acevedo Butcher to explore Indigenous wisdom, the Potawatomi language, and daily rituals of gratitude. Resources: Learn more about Kaitlin Curtice here. Pick up a copy of Kaitlin's latest book, Everything is a Story, here. Join Kaitlin's Substack, The Liminality Journal, here. The transcript for this episode can be found here. Connect with us: Have a question you’d like Brian or Carmen to answer about this season? Email us: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠podcasts@cac.org⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Send us a voicemail: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠cac.org/voicemail⁠⁠⁠

On our ninth season of Learning How to See, Brian McLaren and guest co-host, Carmen Acevedo Butcher, continue to explore seeing through eyes of love. Through openhearted conversation, podcast guests share experiences in which their lens of love became more finely tuned. We also share embodied practices to help you expand your own capacity to see and act through love, especially during uncertain and turbulent times.

What if love could guide you through anger, injustice, and even the darkest memories? In this episode, Brian McLaren and co-host Carmen Acevedo Butcher reflect on how love, honesty, and contemplative practice can transform even deep wounds. They also respond to a listener’s question: how do we love those who cause harm—especially in politics? Brian and Carmen explore the tension between righteous anger and loving action, offering spiritual insights, personal stories, and practices that help us see with the eyes of love. Resources: Find the poem by Nikolai Velimirovich here Find the poem by Walter Brueggemann here

What would change if you could see with eyes of love—even in the face of cruelty, fear, and disagreement? In this episode, Brian McLaren and co-host Carmen Acevedo Butcher sit down with renowned spiritual leader, legal advocate, and activist Sister Simone Campbell for a deeply honest conversation about love, justice, and compassion. They explore how contemplative practice grounds fierce activism, why listening is an act of love, and what it means to see even your political opponents with empathy. From her role in passing the Affordable Care Act to launching the "Nuns on the Bus" movement, Sister Simone shares moving stories of courage, community, and the Spirit’s surprising guidance—inviting us all into a new way of seeing and being. Resources: You can find a transcript for this episode here. Find Sr Simone Campbell's book Hunger for Hope here.

What would change if you believed that active, creative non-violence was the deepest expression of love? In this episode, Brian McLaren and co-host Carmen Acevedo Butcher welcome legendary peace activist, Catholic priest, and author Fr. John Dear for an unflinching conversation about the cost—and the healing power—of universal non-violence. Together they explore how language shapes our discipleship, what it feels like to be seen with unconditional love, and why “live and stop the killing” may be the clearest way to describe love in action. Resources: Find out more about Fr. John Dear here. Find out more The Beatitudes Center for the Nonviolent Jesus: here. The transcript for this episode can be found here. Connect with us: Have a question you'd like Brian or Carmen to answer about this season? Email us: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠podcasts@cac.org⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Send us a voicemail: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠cac.org/voicemail⁠⁠⁠

How might your life change if you paused more often to unlearn what fear has taught you? In this episode, hosts Brian McLaren and Carmen Acevedo Butcher are joined by Rev. Dr. Otis Moss III. Together, they explore what it means to live with vision in times of struggle—when the path is unclear, but the call to truth and love remains strong. Drawing from his book Dancing in the Darkness, Dr. Moss reflects on the experience of being Black and faithful in America, and how reclaiming the radical tradition of love—rooted in justice and courage—can liberate both the oppressed and the oppressor. Connect with us: Have a question you'd like Brian or Carmen to answer about this season? Email us: ⁠⁠⁠⁠podcasts@cac.org⁠⁠⁠⁠ Send us a voicemail: ⁠⁠⁠⁠cac.org/voicemail⁠⁠⁠ Resources: The transcript for this episode can be ⁠found here⁠.

How do ordinary moments become portals to the sacred? On this episode of Learning How to See, Carrie Newcomer joins Brian and Carmen for a conversation-and-concert that explores “short-form empathy,” the contemplative power of music, and the everyday practice of seeing, and being seen, through eyes of love. Along the way Carrie performs two beloved songs, sharing the stories that shaped them, and Carmen invites listeners into a simple chant that can travel with us on morning walks or difficult days. Connect with us: Have a question you'd like Brian or Carmen to answer about this season? Email us: ⁠⁠⁠podcasts@cac.org⁠⁠⁠ Send us a voicemail: ⁠⁠⁠cac.org/voicemail⁠⁠ Resources: The transcript for this episode can be found here. Listen to the song Start With a Stone inspired by CAC’s Daily Meditations and co-written with the legendary John McCutcheon ⁠here⁠ Find the song I Do Not Know It's Name here Find the song It's Always Love here To learn more about Carrie Newcomer and her work, check out her website here. To learn more about Carmen Acevedo Butcher, check our her website here. To learn more about Brian McLaren, check out his website here.

What happens to your own humanity when you choose to truly see the humanity in others? In this episode, Jesuit priest Father Rafael Garcia joins Brian McLaren and Carmen Acevedo Butcher to explore what it means to see through eyes of love—especially in a world that often teaches us to view immigrants, the incarcerated, and the marginalized with fear or indifference. Drawing from his work at the U.S.–Mexico border, his Cuban refugee roots, and stories of deep pastoral presence, Father Rafael shares how radical hospitality transforms both giver and receiver. Carmen reflects on her own awakening to shared humanity while serving in a women’s prison, paralleling Rafael’s shift from architectural comfort to spiritual solidarity. Together, they illuminate how true vision—grounded in Jesuit and Franciscan compassion—invites us not into pity, but into kinship and mutual transformation. Connect with us: Have a question you'd like Brian or Carmen to answer about this season? Email us: ⁠⁠⁠podcasts@cac.org⁠⁠⁠ Send us a voicemail: ⁠⁠⁠cac.org/voicemail⁠⁠ Resources: The transcript for this episode can be found here.

What would change if you believed that grace was at the center of your life? In this episode, Brian and Carmen are joined by longtime friend and public theologian Nadia Bolz-Weber for a conversation about the radical, healing power of grace—and how it reshapes our vision of ourselves, others, and the divine. Connect with us: Have a question you'd like Brian or Carmen to answer about this season? Email us: ⁠⁠⁠podcasts@cac.org⁠⁠⁠ Send us a voicemail: ⁠⁠⁠cac.org/voicemail⁠⁠ Resources: The transcript for this episode can be found here. For information about Nadia, visit her website here.

In this opening to Season 8, Learning How to See returns with understanding how to see with the eyes of love. On this season, Brian McLaren introduces his new co-host Dr. Carmen Acevedo Butcher—a scholar, translator, contemplative teacher, and birdwatching chocolate lover—and together, they launch the theme for this season: Seeing Through Eyes of Love. This episode weaves together personal storytelling, embodied spiritual practice, and reflection to explore how love can transform the way we see ourselves, each other, and the world. Your Practice for the Week: Once a day, notice something you’re seeing with judgment or indifference. Pause. Shift your gaze to see it with the eyes of love. Then try to “telescope out”: See yourself seeing with love. See others doing the same. Envision Divine Love witnessing it all. Connect with us: Have a question you'd like Brian or Carmen to answer about this season? Email us: ⁠⁠podcasts@cac.org⁠⁠ Send us a voicemail: ⁠⁠cac.org/voicemail⁠ Resources & Mentions: The transcript for this episode can be found here. In this episode, Carmen referenced the following: Dorothee Sölle – Death by Bread Alone Howard Thurman – Mysticism and the Experience of Love Brother Lawrence – The Practice of the Presence of God Meister Eckhart – on the “eye within me” Brian referenced the following: Richard Rohr’s Cosmic Egg – a framework of nested stories: My Story, Our Story, The Story (This is located in his book, The Wisdom Pattern.) 1 Corinthians 13 – closing reading on the nature of love

Can we cultivate a relationship with the natural world which mirrors the care and concern we would offer a dear friend? How do you foster hope in the midst of an unruly world? In this conversation, Brian McLaren is prompted by CAC Staff members Corey Wayne and Mike Petrow, to reflect on his journey from pastor to writer and public speaker. Brian discusses the interconnectedness of nature and spirituality, the need for respect and boundaries in our relationship with the natural world, and the urgency of advocating for environmental issues in light of current political and ecological challenges. The three discuss the historical context of the Desert Fathers and Mothers, the inescapability of our current crises, and the various responses individuals have to these challenges (fight, flight, freeze, flock). They explore the importance of community and connection in times of despair, emphasizing the role of love and nature in cultivating hope and resilience. The discussion leaves us asking how we can be better friends to the earth and to each other amidst the complexities of modern life. Resources: The transcript for this episode can be found here. Brian's book, Life After Doom is referenced in this episode. Connect with us: Email us: podcasts@cac.org Send us a voicemail: cac.org/voicemail