The Human Risk Podcast

What if AI could help us understand people better, rather than simply replacing what humans do? Episode summary How can we use AI to become better at persuasion, communication and understanding human behaviour? My guest on this episode is Roger Dooley, author of The Persuasion Engine, a new book exploring what happens when behavioural science meets rapidly evolving technology. Roger argues that tools once available only to large organisations — from behavioural science expertise to eye-tracking — are becoming accessible to almost anyone. We explore how AI can act as a personal “nudge unit”, helping us apply ideas from behavioural science, test communications and understand how different audiences might respond.We also discuss why simply asking an AI for an answer isn't enough, how to push LLMs beyond predictable responses, and why human judgement remains essential. Roger introduces his idea of a “60-second audit” — using AI to identify how communications might be misunderstood or backfire before we send them.Along the way, we talk about Cialdini, cognitive biases, invisible calls-to-action, board papers, cultural disasters, AI collaborators, rally driving, long division and why the best analogy for AI might be a power tool rather than a replacement for human thinking. Guest bio Roger Dooley is an author, speaker and behavioural science expert who has spent years exploring a deceptively simple question: why do people do what they do? His latest book, The Persuasion Engine (Wiley, 2026), looks at what happens when behavioural science meets AI — and how tools once available only to big companies with big budgets are now becoming accessible to almost anyone.Roger is also the author of Friction , named a Top 3 Management Book by PwC’s strategy+business, and Brainfluence , which has been published in 11 languages. He brings an unusually practical perspective to the subject. Roger co-founded College Confidential and today he combines that entrepreneurial experience with behavioural science in his writing, speaking and teaching.He is a lecturer at McCombs Business School, a Forbes contributor and host of the Brainfluence podcast — and his work focuses on helping organisations understand people better, remove unnecessary friction and communicate in ways that actually work. AI-Generated Timestamped Summary 00:00 — What if AI could be your behavioural scientist? 05:00 — Cialdini, behavioural science and why people don’t know why they decide 10:00 — Eye-tracking, attention and what people actually notice 15:00 — Making important information more visible 20:00 — Board reports, visual hierarchy and designing for human attention 25:00 — Better prompting and getting AI beyond obvious answers 30:00 — What happens to human expertise when AI knows the theory? 35:00 — Reactance, unintended consequences and communications that backfire 40:00 — Cultural context, reputation and Roger’s “60-second audit” 45:00 — Using AI to become better at understanding other audiences 50:00 — Roger’s lifelong interest in technology and what comes next 55:00 — Cognitive offloading, critical judgement and rally driving 57:00 — Why AI is best thought of as a power tool Links to topics discussed The Persuasion Engine — Roger’s latest book on how AI, behavioural science and neuromarketing tools are becoming accessible to organisations of all sizes. Roger's previous appearance on this podcast talking about Friction. RogerDooley.com — Roger’s website, including his books, articles, speaking and latest work. Roger on LinkedIn — where Roger regularly shares ideas on behavioural science, persuasion, AI and marketing. The Brainfluence Podcast — Roger’s podcast exploring behaviour, persuasion, neuroscience and business. Roger’s episode on The Persuasion Engine — his own introduction to the ideas behind the book, including what he calls “Neuromarketing 2.0”. Friction — Roger’s previous book, and the subject of his earlier appearance on The Human Risk Podcast.

What’s the last thing you learned simply because you wanted to know? Episode summary Why do we feel the need to justify what we learn? My guest on this episode is Annie Wagstaff , a musician and composer whose career has taken her around the world touring with Take That and into writing music for advertising. But alongside her work in music, Annie has developed another passion: learning about whatever happens to make her curious.That could be vine tomatoes, animals, colour, knots, the human body, or simply something she notices while walking through a supermarket. Annie shares what she discovers on social media, not because the knowledge necessarily has an obvious purpose, but because she finds it interesting. And that raises a fascinating question: what happens to the natural curiosity we have as children as we become adults?In our conversation, we explore creativity and constraints, sonic branding, why children pick up stones while adults tell them to put them down, the pleasure of knowing a little about a lot, short attention spans and hyperfocus, authenticity in an age of AI, and why learning something without knowing what you’re going to do with it might be exactly the point.We also talk about Take That, vine tomatoes, staring at flowers, doomscrolling, notebooks, knots and sailing — the kind of eclectic mix that an episode about curiosity really ought to contain. Guest bio Annie Wagstaff is a London-based guitarist, musician and composer.She has worked as a session musician, toured internationally with Take That, and composes music for advertising and other commercial projects. Earlier in her career, Annie also released her own music and built a large following online through her guitar playing.More recently, she has used her social channels to share the things she learns simply because they interest her — turning subjects ranging from science and animals to everyday observations into short, accessible explorations of curiosity. AI-Generated Timestamped Summary 00:00 — Why curiosity matters 05:00 — Touring the world with Take That 10:00 — Writing music for advertising 15:00 — Sonic branding and the power of sound 17:00 — From “Guitar Girl” to curiosity creator 22:00 — Vine tomatoes and unexpected rabbit holes 25:00 — Why children are naturally curious 34:00 — Flowers, distraction and noticing the world 38:00 — Becoming a “knowledge butterfly” 45:00 — Authenticity, social media and AI 50:00 — Why does knowledge need a purpose? 55:00 — Rediscovering curiosity — from five minutes to sailing Links Annie's Website: anniewagstaff.com including her books TikTok: @annieplaysguitar on TikTok LinkedIn: Annie Wagstaff on LinkedIn Instagram: @annieplaysguitar on Instagram YouTube: Annie Plays Guitar on YouTube

What happens when someone who spends his life thinking about risk, decision-making and human behaviour is confronted with an uncertainty he simply can’t control? Episode summary My guest is Paul Craven, a behavioural scientist, former investment professional, magician and keynote speaker, and one of my favourite people to talk to. When we sat down to record this episode, I noticed that Paul’s voice sounded different. His explanation — that he had recently been diagnosed with oral cancer — took our conversation in an unexpected and deeply personal direction.We explore what his experience has taught him about uncertainty, why he deliberately chose not to Google his diagnosis, and the difference between having information and having useful information. From there, we explore luck and skill, decision and gratitude journals, relationships versus transactions, the dangers of binary thinking, and why sometimes the best thing you can do when you’re in a bad mood is go for a walk in the rain. It’s a conversation about behavioural science, but also about perspective, paying attention and what we discover about ourselves when life doesn’t go according to plan. Key themes Living with uncertainty and the psychological value of having a plan Why more information isn’t always better information AI, search engines and our desire for certainty Nuance versus binary thinking Luck, skill and decision journals Gratitude and paying attention to what matters Relationships versus transactions Storytelling, lived experience and different ways of seeing the world Chameleon Thinking and the value of changing perspective Guest Profile - Paul Craven Paul is a behavioural scientist, keynote speaker and former investment professional who brings together insights from psychology, behavioural science, finance and magic to explore how people really think and make decisions. Links Paul Craven — speaker profile and booking enquiries Paul Craven’s website Iain McGilchrist Martin Shaw Mark Vernon Paul’s previous appearances on the Human Risk Podcast Solo: Paul Craven on Magic, Money & The Mind With Gerald Ashley: Gerald Ashley & Paul Craven on Statistics, Spreadsheets & Scam Artists and Paul Craven & Gerald Ashley on Context, Consequences & Changeability With Rory Sutherland: Rory Sutherland & Paul Craven on Alchemy & Magic and Paul Craven & Rory Sutherland on Magic & Alchemy With Rory Sutherland & Gerald Ashley at Abbey Road Timestamped summary 00:00 — Introduction 01:35 — Paul’s diagnosis and living with uncertainty Paul reveals his cancer diagnosis and reflects on why not knowing can sometimes be harder than receiving difficult news. 07:00 — Medicine, empathy and different perspectives What Paul’s experience of the NHS taught him about communication, multidisciplinary thinking and the importance of context. 10:00 — Appreciating life, stories and walking in the rain From Iain McGilchrist and Martin Shaw to Rowan Williams’ wonderfully simple advice for dealing with a bad mood. 17:10 — Reframing, Chameleon Thinking and “All shall be well” Why changing perspective can help us navigate difficult circumstances — including Paul’s own illness. 25:45 — Why Paul chose not to Google his cancer The risks of searching without context, what AI adds to the problem, and why life rarely provides simple binary answers. 31:20 — Luck, skill and keeping journals What investment management can teach us about hindsight, decision quality and the value of both decision and gratitude journals. 37:20 — Relationships, transactions and the limits of efficiency Why trust and relationships matter, and what can be lost when we optimise purely for efficiency. 43:25 — Authenticity, AI and Chesterton’s Fence The value of individuality in an AI-mediated world and why we should understand what we’re discarding before we replace it. 47:10 — Wisdom under every rock Paul brings together the themes of reframing, curiosity and learning from different perspectives. 49:10 — An update on Paul Christian shares encouraging news following Paul’s surgery and looks forward to welcoming him back to the show.

Why do we rate everything and why do we do so on a scale of one to five stars? What happens when systems designed to help us make better choices start influencing our behaviour in ways we don’t necessarily notice? Episode Summary My guest is Benji Wilson , a journalist, TV critic and author of Rate This Book . Benji’s day job involves rating other people’s work, but when his children pointed out that Rotten Tomatoes was also rating him, it prompted him to investigate the ratings culture that surrounds us. In our conversation, we explore where ratings came from, why the five-star system became dominant and the psychology that makes us pay attention to the opinions of people we’ve never met. We discuss social proof and the wisdom of crowds, why we often use ratings to avoid making bad decisions rather than to identify the very best option, and what happens when reviews are fake, manipulated or simply unfair. We also explore the consequences of moving from rating products and services to rating people, including Uber drivers, hospitality workers and doctors, and why a single negative review can have significant consequences.Benji also explains how ratings might have applications in places we wouldn’t necessarily expect, including workplace appraisals and even democracy, where alternative voting systems use ratings to allow people to express more nuanced preferences. And, appropriately for someone who has written a book called Rate This Book, we discuss what it feels like when the ratings are turned back on you — including why an anonymous three-star review might actually be more useful than a perfect five-star score. Guest Profile Benji is a journalist, author and TV critic. His book, Rate This Book, explores how ratings and reviews came to dominate modern life, the psychology that makes them work and what happens when the systems designed to help us make choices begin shaping those choices themselves. Links Benji's website — more about Benji and his work. Rate This Book — How Star Ratings Took Over the World, published by New Modern Arcade. Rate This Book audiobook — read by Benji Wilson. AI-Generated Timestamped Summary 00:00 — Introduction: why we rate everything 01:45 — Benji’s life as a TV critic and discovering that Rotten Tomatoes was also rating him. 03:30 — Where ratings came from, from our instinct to rank things to the emergence of star ratings. 08:30 — The psychology of ratings: prospect theory, avoiding bad decisions and why we rely on other people’s opinions. 10:15 — Why five stars became the dominant rating system. 16:00 — Experts versus crowds, social proof and why thousands of reviews can feel so persuasive. 20:00 — Fake reviews, manipulated ratings and why critical thinking still matters. 25:00 — What happens when we move from rating products to rating people — and the real-world consequences of negative reviews. 29:30 — Reputation management, review blackmail and whether ratings platforms need greater regulation. 33:30 — Ratings and democracy: could STAR voting offer a less binary way of choosing politicians?38:30 — Workplace appraisals, reciprocal ratings and what happens when a numerical score overwhelms everything else. 43:00 — Uber and how our relationship with rating systems changes over time. 44:30 — What it feels like to have Rate This Book rated — including Benji’s mysterious three-star review. 47:30 — Why three stars may be our most natural — and least useful — rating. 52:30 — How writing the book changed Benji’s own behaviour and why trusted personal recommendations can beat aggregated reviews. 56:30 — Why companies really want our ratings and the commercial incentives behind endless requests for feedback. 01:01:00 — Amazon Vine, gamification and how rating systems can influence the people doing the rating. 01:02:30 — Where to find Benji and Rate This Book, plus the inevitable invitation to rate both the book and the podcast.

What parts of yourself have you learned to hide in order to be taken seriously? My guest on this episode is Mark Heywood , a friend of the show, returning guest and someone I've collaborated with on a number of projects. Episode Summary & Guest Profile Mark has spent more than twenty years working in crisis management and operational resilience, while simultaneously building a successful career as a bestselling novelist, screenwriter and, more recently, stand-up comedian. On the morning we recorded this conversation, Mark published an article marking his fifty-first birthday. In it, he reflected on the pressure many of us feel to present only one version of ourselves professionally, arguing that his creative and corporate lives were never really separate. As he puts it, they were 'not two jobs, but one obsession wearing two different lanyards.' That simple idea becomes the starting point for a much wider discussion about the stories we tell ourselves, and the stories organisations tell themselves. Along the way we explore: Why "stay in your lane" may say more about other people's expectations than your own potential. Why organisations often encourage people to bring their whole selves to work, while rewarding conformity. What interviews, dress codes and organisational culture reveal about human behaviour. Why stories often influence behaviour more effectively than rules, policies and frameworks. What films can teach us about operational resilience, cybersecurity and crisis management. Why the Titanic remains one of the most powerful lessons in organisational failure. How imagination is a strategic capability rather than a soft skill. Why thinking through "severe but plausible" scenarios requires organisations to become better storytellers. Links Mark's birthday article: "A Birthday Declaration from Someone Who Spent Over Twenty Years Pretending to Be Half of Himself" (LinkedIn) Mark's Behind The Spine podcast The Writing Salon Behind The Spine podcast Mark on LinkedIn Mark's previous appearances on the show talking about The Creative Industries under COVID, and Human Risk in the Creative Industries Films, Stories & People Mentioned Die Hard Apollo 13 The Martian The Odyssey (Christopher Nolan) Don't Look Up Snakes on a Plane Sharknado Noah's Ark RMS Titanic Rachel Heyhoe Flin t Jeremy King AI-Generated Timestamped Summary 00:00 – Why do we hide parts of ourselves to be taken seriously? 03:40 – Mark explains why he stopped separating his creative and corporate identities. 08:00 – Which hobbies and outside interests are considered professionally acceptable—and why? 10:30 – Job interviews, authenticity and bringing your whole self to work. 16:00 – Jeremy King on why behaviour matters more than dress codes. 19:00 – Rachel Heyhoe Flint, the MCC and what institutional rules reveal about culture. 23:00 – Why stories influence behaviour more effectively than rules. 24:00 – The Trojan Horse and using films to teach cybersecurity and resilience. 29:00 – The Titanic as a lesson in organisational resilience rather than maritime history. 32:00 – Conduct versus outcomes: why testing matters more than compliance. 36:00 – Using stories and popular culture to make risk real. 38:00 – Noah's Ark, history and the enduring power of storytelling. 40:30 – CrowdStrike, PPE and why organisations keep repeating the same mistakes. 46:00 – Stories aren't predictions—they're a way of exploring possibility. 49:00 – A ransomware exercise and the danger of relying on fixed policies. 52:00 – Returning to the Titanic: preparing for the inquiry before the crisis. 55:00 – Thinking like an attacker and challenging assumptions about cyber risk. 58:00 – Taylor Swift, insurance and why seemingly ordinary data can become highly sensitive. 1:02:00 – The idea of "risk inflation" and why yesterday's rules aren't enough. 1:10:00 – Why memorable stories change behaviour more effectively than realistic scenarios. 1:15:00 – Reverse stress testing and imagining what could really break an organisation. 1:20:00 – RAG ratings, reporting and the danger of looking resilient instead of being resilient. 1:23:00 – Final reflections on creativity, identity and why being more than one thing is a strength.

When something goes badly wrong, we investigate it. Reports are written. Recommendations are made. Lessons are identified. But do we actually learn them? Episode Summary Returning to the show, Gill Kernic k joins me to discuss the substantially revised second edition of her book about the Grenfell Tower disaster , following the publication of the Grenfell Inquiry's final report. Gill has a unique perspective on Grenfell. She lived on the 21st floor of the tower before moving out three years before the fire. Professionally, she has spent decades helping organisations in high-hazard industries understand leadership, safety and major accidents. When Gill first appeared on the podcast, the Inquiry was still underway. Seven years later, its conclusions have revealed an even more disturbing picture—not of one catastrophic mistake, but of systemic failure involving government, regulators, manufacturers, certification bodies and the construction industry. But this episode isn't just about Grenfell. It's about why organisations struggle to learn from failure, why compliance isn't the same as understanding, why we crave simple explanations for complex problems, and why genuine learning is much harder than writing another report. If you haven't already listened to Gill's previous appearances on the podcast, I'd strongly recommend doing so. Together, the conversations chart how understanding evolves as new evidence emerges. What you'll learn In this episode In a wide-ranging discussion, we explore: Why Gill decided to write a second edition after the Grenfell Inquiry concluded The shocking scale of the systemic failures uncovered by the Inquiry Why disasters rarely have a single root cause The hidden dangers of deregulation and "compliance theatre" Why organisations identify lessons but rarely learn them The importance of understanding the spirit—not just the letter—of regulation Why complexity requires different kinds of leadership How AI might help organisations learn lessons in real time Why hope is, as Gill puts it, "an act of resistance" AI-Generated.Timestamp Summary 00:00 – Do we really learn lessons from disasters? 02:45 – Gill's personal connection to Grenfell Tower 05:15 – Why the second edition became necessary after the Inquiry 06:30 – The Inquiry's most shocking findings 10:00 – When regulators knew the risks—but failed to act 12:00 – Implicit trust and why we rely on systems we don't understand 13:00 – Deregulation and the unintended consequences of political narratives 17:00 – Compliance versus understanding the intent behind regulation 20:00 – Why regulations struggle to keep pace with technology and complexity 24:00 – Hope as an act of resistance 25:00 – Why we don't actually learn lessons 27:00 – Is a seven-year inquiry too long? 33:00 – Why "post-Grenfell" reforms miss the real point 37:00 – Communities of grief and change 39:00 – Why Gill rewrote the book instead of writing a new one 44:00 – How the experience changed Gill's own thinking 50:00 – Speaking up in ways that actually get heard 53:30 – Practical advice for learning in complex systems 55:00 – "Lessons learning" instead of "lessons learned" 59:00 – Final reflections Links Gill's website, The Grenfell Enquirer Her book 'Catastrophe & Systemic Change' Gill's LinkedIn : Her previous show appearances Gill Kernick on the Grenfell Tower Disaster — Part One Gill Kernick on the Grenfell Tower Disaster — Part Two Topics discussed Grenfell Tower Inquiry – Final Report The Grenfell Enquirer (articles and resources) Arup's Building Safety Change Framework People and ideas mentioned Dave Snowden (Cognitive Edge) Cynefin Framework overview Background incidents referenced Piper Alpha disaster (Encyclopaedia Britannica) Lakanal House fire (Wikipedia) Deepwater Horizon oil spill (Encyclopaedia Britannica)

What does jazz singing have to do with LinkedIn? More than you might think. This week's guest, Anna Rössler , has built a career helping senior leaders find their voice online while simultaneously developing her own as a singer-songwriter. Rather than separating her professional and creative identities, Anna has found a way to bring them together, and in doing so offers some valuable lessons about authenticity, confidence and human connection. We explore why so much online content feels performative, how AI is changing the way we communicate, and why the best personal brands aren't really about branding at all. Along the way we discuss experimentation, creativity, stage fright, networking, and the importance of building a life around the things that genuinely energise you. Whether you're trying to communicate more effectively at work, build a presence online, or simply find more balance between your career and your passions, there's plenty to take away from this conversation. Episode Summary On this episode, we discuss: Why authenticity is more than simply 'being yourself.' How personal branding is really about building trust. Why social media should be treated as a conversation, not a broadcast. The hidden metrics that matter more than likes and impressions. How to use AI without losing your own voice. Why experimentation beats chasing algorithms. What performing music teaches us about confidence and communication. How side passions can make us better professionals. Why designing your environment is often more important than motivation. The value of creating a life that gives you energy instead of draining it. Guest Profile Anna Rössler is a marketing and LinkedIn specialist who helps organisations and senior leaders communicate more effectively through content and personal branding. Alongside her marketing career, she's an accomplished jazz and pop vocalist, songwriter and performer. Her work sits at the intersection of communication, creativity and authenticity, helping people find a voice that genuinely sounds like them—whether they're posting on LinkedIn or performing on stage. Follow Anna on LinkedIn and on her personal website .

What happens when two people who spend their careers thinking about human behaviour meet in a London pub and start complaining about conferences? Apparently, they decide to organise one. Episode Summary In this episode I'm joined by David Grosse , founder of behavioural risk advisory firm Behavor , to talk about The Unconvention, an event we're creating together that aims to rethink how conversations about risk, culture and human behaviour actually happen. But this isn't just an episode about an event. David and I explore why organisations continue to treat behavioural risk as a niche topic, despite human decision-making sitting at the heart of almost every organisational failure. We discuss why so many conferences on culture and conduct feel formulaic, why measuring culture through board packs can miss the point entirely, and why stories often reveal far more than statistics ever can. Along the way we touch on Silicon Valley Bank, Plato's Cave, behavioural science, organisational culture, productive discomfort, and why the best events might leave you with fewer certainties than when you arrived. If you're curious about The Unconvention, or simply interested in why we think there has to be a better way to have these conversations, I hope you'll enjoy listening. Links David on LinkedIn David's company Behavor The Unconvention Website and ticketing site. AI-Generated Timestamped summary 00:00 – Christian introduces the episode and explains how a conversation in a London pub led to the creation of The Unconvention. 02:20 – David shares his journey from chartered accountant and banker to behavioural risk specialist, and explains why human behaviour became the focus of his work. 05:30 – Why behavioural risk still isn't taken as seriously as other forms of risk, despite sitting behind so many organisational failures. 11:30 – Christian and David discuss what's wrong with many industry conferences, from scripted panels to sponsor-led agendas, and why they rarely change anyone's thinking. 18:00 – The conversation turns to culture, governance and why dashboards and board packs can never fully capture human behaviour. 24:30 – Stories, rather than statistics alone, often provide the richest insights into how organisations really work. 29:00 – The origins of The Unconvention and the principles behind creating an event that deliberately breaks with conference convention 35:30 – Why attendees are being invited to help shape the event, and how behavioural thinking has influenced everything from the format to the ticketing model. 42:00 – Christian and David discuss what they hope participants will take away: curiosity, productive discomfort and conversations that continue long after the event ends. 48:45 – Final details on The Unconvention, where to find David, and the unexpectedly simple story behind the name "Behavor".

Why is it so hard to stop people playing vides, music or phone calls out loud on public transport — and what does that tell us about changing human behaviour? Show Summary This episode of The Human Risk Podcast is a little different. It is a cross-cast from The Freewheeling Podcast , hosted by Thomas Ablema n, in which I join Thomas to tackle a problem raised by the show's most important listener: his mum. The issue? People using phones, videos, music and speaker calls out loud on trains and buses. What begins as a seemingly small transport etiquette problem quickly becomes a much bigger conversation about social norms, antisocial behaviour, customer experience, incentives, enforcement and the limits of signage. In our discussion, we explore why simply telling people to stop may not work, how reactance can make things worse, and why transport operators need to think more creatively about behaviour change. Along the way, we consider quiet carriages, “electronic entertainment carriages”, cheap headphones, better-targeted messaging, staff intervention, social media campaigns and the wider question of whether public transport operators are responsible for the behaviour of the humans they carry. The Freewheeling Podcast The Freewheeling Podcast is a show for transport change-makers. It explores how we can move forwards faster, bringing listeners fresh voices, new ideas and unconventional thinking. While it has a strong focus on transport and mobility, the show also ranges into entrepreneurship, politics, public policy, cities and how systems can be designed to work better for the people who use them. Links The Freewheeling Podcast - https://www.freewheeling.info/the-freewheeling-podcast Thomas on LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/thomasableman/

What if the best way to improve cybersecurity — or any other form of human risk — wasn't another policy, training course, or piece of technology, but a board game? That's the kind of question my guest, Jill Wick, loves asking. Episode Summary Jill is a cybersecurity awareness consultant, business psychologist, podcaster, and author. Her work sits at the intersection of psychology, marketing, behavioural science, and cybersecurity, and she is passionate about helping organisations understand that security is fundamentally a human challenge, not simply a technical one. Drawing on her experience in fraud prevention and her academic background in business psychology, Jill explains why traditional approaches to awareness often fail, why experimentation matters, and how a simple Snakes and Ladders-inspired game can create meaningful conversations about risk and decision-making. The discussion ranges far beyond cybersecurity. We explore creativity, curiosity, communication, organisational culture, social media, learning, and the challenge of measuring success when the outcome you're seeking is something that doesn't happen. Key Topics In this episode, we discuss: Why cybersecurity is ultimately a human problem rather than a technology problem The psychology behind phishing, scams, and social engineering Why more policies and more training often fail to change behaviour How unclear policies can create confusion instead of compliance The role of curiosity, creativity, and experimentation in risk management How games can create psychologically safe environments for learning The importance of conversation and peer learning in awareness programmes What compliance, safety, conduct, and operational risk professionals can learn from cybersecurity awareness Why awareness professionals should think more like marketers The value of experimentation, iteration, and A/B testing How social media can help build communities around important ideas Why measuring engagement may be just as important as measuring failures Guest Biography Jill Wick is a cybersecurity awareness consultant, business psychologist, author, and podcast host who specialises in the human side of cybersecurity. Drawing on a background in fraud prevention and behavioural science, she helps organisations build stronger security cultures through creative, engaging approaches that go beyond traditional training and compliance. Known for her innovative use of games, psychology, and marketing techniques, Jill is a passionate advocate for making cybersecurity awareness more human, effective, and enjoyable Links Jill's LinkedIn profile - https://www.linkedin.com/in/jill-wick/ Jill's website - https://www.jillwick.com/ Cyber & Psych, Jill's podcast - https://open.spotify.com/show/5uteiqHvCTGCVtCsKCzGJ6?si=322ef51fd6a3423c&nd=1&dlsi=c6d8309550784df9 Security-Awareness-Tools, Jill's book - https://www.isbn.de/buch/9783658511111/security-awareness-tools AI-Generated Timestamped Outline 00:00 – Introduction 02:15 – Jill's background: From fraud prevention and business psychology to cybersecurity awareness. 05:30 – Understanding why people fall for scams, phishing attacks, and social engineering. 06:00 – Why cybersecurity is fundamentally a human problem, not just a technical one. 08:00 – The limitations of rules, policies, and traditional awareness training. 12:00 – The origin of Jill's cybersecurity board game and why simplicity matters. 14:00 – How games create psychologically safe conversations and improve learning. 19:30 – The game as a conversation tool: building culture, peer learning, and engagement. 22:00 – Creativity, curiosity, and the courage to experiment with new approaches. 26:00 – What cybersecurity awareness can learn from marketing, advertising, and A/B testing. 35:30 – Why awareness and technology must work together rather than compete. 41:30 – New projects: workshops, events, games, and Jill's forthcoming book Security Awareness Tools. 44:00 – Lessons for compliance and risk professionals: attention is a limited resource. 51:00 – Measuring success: engagement, participation, reporting, and positive signals.

What can businesses learn from cults? It might sound like an uncomfortable comparison: one involves strategy meetings, values statements and quarterly targets; the other manipulation, charismatic leaders and extreme behaviour. But perhaps the distinction isn't as clear as we'd like to think. Both create identities and shared beliefs. Both shape how people think and behave. And both can evolve gradually in ways that are hard to recognise from the inside. Unhealthy cultures rarely appear overnight. Small compromises become normal, difficult questions become harder to ask, and behaviours that once felt uncomfortable slowly become accepted. Episode Overview On this episode, I'm joined by Tobias Sturesson , culture advisor and author of You Can Culture , whose understanding of organisational culture comes not from business school, but from a deeply personal experience growing up inside a religious community that gradually evolved into a cult. Drawing on his own story — and his work helping organisations create healthier cultures — Tobias explains why good people can become part of unhealthy systems, why speaking up is often far harder than leaders realise, and why culture is shaped far less by mission statements than by the everyday behaviours people learn to accept. We also explore: How communities and organisations can slowly drift into unhealthy patterns Why leaving damaging environments is often much harder than outsiders imagine The role of sunk costs, identity and belonging in keeping people trapped Why organisations often mistake symptoms for root causes The difference between “tone from the top” and “example from the top” Why humility may be one of the most underrated leadership traits The dangers of leaders creating the appearance of listening without genuinely hearing people Why culture initiatives often fail to create lasting behavioural change How everyday leadership habits shape organisational culture Why discomfort is often necessary for growth Guest Profile - Tobias Sturesson Tobias is a culture advisor, speaker and author focused on helping organisations build healthier cultures and develop more responsible leadership practices. His work combines personal experience with research and practical interventions designed to help organisations identify and address the root causes that undermine cultural health. He is the author of You Can Culture: Transformative Leadership Habits for a Thriving Workplace, Positive Impact and Lasting Success. Links Tobias on LinkedIn – https://www.linkedin.com/in/tobiassturesson/ Heart Management - https://www.heartmanagement.org/ Tobias' Book: You Can Culture – https://youcanculture.com/ AI-Generated Timestamped Summary 00:00 — Introduction: What can cults teach us about culture? 03:00 — Tobias's story of growing up inside a community that became a cult 08:30 — How unhealthy environments evolve gradually 11:00 — Why leaving can be harder than joining 13:00 — The importance of people who help without judging 16:00 — Turning personal experience into professional purpose 19:00 — Why organisations often misunderstand their own problems 23:00 — Humility as a leadership strength 26:00 — The tension between expertise and curiosity 29:00 — Why business systems often reward the wrong behaviours 33:00 — The importance of listening and asking better questions 38:00 — Why reflection matters in fast-moving environments 42:00 — Culture as everyday conversations and habits 45:00 — Leadership signals and behavioural norms 49:00 — Building healthier cultures through leadership habits 53:00 — Why changing culture is difficult but necessary 56:00 — Creating a movement for healthier leadership

What makes great service? It’s one of those things we instantly recognise when we experience it, but struggle to define. And while organisations spend huge amounts of time trying to design seamless customer experiences, the reality is that service doesn’t happen in strategy documents or training manuals. It happens in real time, between real people, in messy and unpredictable situations where eventually the playbook runs out. Episode Overview In this episode, Christian is joined by Will Tarrant, CEO of Freeman Group , who focus on helping organisations close the gap between what they promise customers and what actually gets delivered in reality. Drawing on decades of experience across hospitality, aviation, healthcare and destinations, Will explains why compliance-based training can sometimes increase hidden risk, why empowerment without judgment can quickly become chaos, and why the real differentiator in service is rarely the process itself — it’s the human response when something unexpected happens. Along the way, the conversation explores: Why “making people feel a certain way” is the real job in hospitality The hidden risks created by over-reliance on scripts and SOPs Why organisations often confuse solving problems with compensating customers The psychology of customer perception and expectation How hotels, airports and even destinations manage emotional experiences Why breakfast might be the best indicator of a hotel’s quality The tension between automation and human interaction Why good service recovery is about judgment, not generosity As Will puts it: “ Compliance-based training reduces visible risk, but it increases hidden risk. ” Although framed around hospitality and customer service, this episode is really about something much broader: how humans make decisions when the script no longer applies. Guest Profile - Will Tarrant Will Tarrant is the CEO of Freeman Group, a consultancy that helps organisations design and deliver service cultures that align operational reality with brand promise. The company works globally across hospitality, aviation, healthcare, retail and tourism destinations. Links Will on LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/willtarrant/ Freeman Group website - https://freemangroupsolutions.com/ AI-Generated Timestamped Summary 00:00 — Introduction: Why service failures create risk 02:30 — Closing the gap between promise and reality 07:00 — Hospitality is about making people feel something 11:30 — The hidden risk of compliance-based training 13:00 — What happens when the playbook runs out 15:00 — Scripts, authenticity and service style 16:00 — Measuring service quality 19:00 — Perception is reality 20:00 — Why empowerment needs structure 22:00 — Seeing service everywhere 24:00 — The timeless mechanics of good service 26:00 — Automation versus human interaction 29:00 — “The customer is always your customer” 30:00 — Solving problems versus compensating customers 33:00 — Inheriting other people’s problems 36:00 — Hiring for judgment, not just experience 39:00 — The changing status of hospitality careers 43:00 — Humans as the source of unpredictability 47:00 — Why hotel breakfast matters 50:00 — Choice overload and decision fatigue 53:00 — Applying service thinking beyond hospitality 55:00 — The gap between marketing and operational reality

What if prediction isn’t about knowing the future, but controlling it? On this episode, I'm joined by a leading thinker on digital ethics, privacy and technology to explore the idea of prophecy. Episode Summary My guest is Dr Carissa Véliz and in our discussion, we talk about humanity’s long-standing obsession with predicting what comes next, and why today’s algorithms may be the most powerful (and dangerous) prophets we’ve ever created. From ancient oracles and court astrologers to modern AI systems and tech executives, we explore how prediction has always been less about knowledge and more about power. What becomes clear is that while the tools have changed, the underlying dynamics haven’t. We still crave certainty, we still look for authority, and we’re still willing to trust those who claim to see the future. The difference now is scale: predictive technologies don’t just forecast behaviour; they shape it. And the more accurate they appear, the less likely we are to question them. We then explore responsibility. If prediction influences reality, then our willingness to accept it matters. This episode is a reminder that the future isn’t something that simply happens to us, but something we’re actively participating in, whether we realise it or not. Guest Bio Dr Carissa Véliz is Associate Professor of Philosophy at the Institute for Ethics in AI and a Fellow at Hertford College at the University of Oxford. She is a leading thinker on digital ethics, privacy, and technology. She is the author of several books including her latest release ' Prophecy: Prediction, Power and the Fight for the Future, from Ancient Oracles to AI' and ' Privacy Is Power: Why and How You Should Take Back Control of Your Data ' Her work explores how data, AI, and predictive systems reshape society—often in ways that are invisible but deeply consequential. Drawing on philosophy, history, and real-world systems, she examines how power operates through technology and what individuals and institutions can do to resist it. AI-Generated TImestamped Summary [00:00:00] Opening: prediction as something that shapes—not reveals—the future [00:01:00] Why prophecy is a lens for understanding modern AI [00:04:00] Kings, prophets, and the risks of getting predictions wrong [00:06:00] Survival strategies of ancient astrologers [00:08:00] Why humans crave certainty—and who exploits it [00:10:00] The danger of mistaking wealth for wisdom [00:12:00] Prediction as a tool of power throughout history [00:14:00] Surveillance as the foundation of modern prediction [00:16:00] How predictions shape behaviour (self-fulfilling dynamics) [00:17:00] Publishing as a case study in manufactured success [00:21:00] The strange economics of pre-orders and attention [00:23:00] Insurance: from solidarity to individualised risk [00:26:00] The hidden systemic risks of personalised prediction [00:30:00] Why citizens need to reclaim agency [00:31:00] Laziness vs values: why we default to algorithms [00:33:00] Tech creating problems it then claims to solve [00:34:00] The role of humour as truth-telling [00:35:00] Why algorithms would have killed Seinfeld [00:40:00] Practical alternatives: preparation over prediction [00:42:00] The importance of serendipity [00:43:00] Rediscovering the analogue world [00:46:00] Algorithms shaping culture and environments [00:48:00] Optimism vs doom in thinking about technology [00:50:00] Writing as exploration, not prediction Links Carissa's website - https://www.carissaveliz.com/ Her new book, Prophecy - https://www.carissaveliz.com/prophecy Her previous book Privacy Is Power - https://www.carissaveliz.com/books Carissa's faculty page - https://www.oxford-aiethics.ox.ac.uk/dr-carissa-veliz Carissa on LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/carissa-v%C3%A9liz-a5781555/

We like to think we choose what matters. But what if the goals we’re chasing… aren’t actually ours? Episode Summary My guest on this episode is Dr. C. Thi Nguyen , philosopher and author of The Score: How to Stop Playing Somebody Else’s Game, a book about how metrics, scoring systems, and “games” shape our behaviour—often without us realising it. Thi explains how his work on games led him to a deeper question: why do scoring systems make games feel meaningful, but make real life feel distorted? The answer lies in how metrics redefine success—quietly shifting us from what we care about to what we can measure. In a wide-ranging discussion, we explore the idea of “value capture”, why institutions rely on simplified proxies, and how the very features that make metrics useful also make them dangerous. We also discuss expertise, transparency, gamification, and why removing metrics altogether doesn’t solve the problem. This is a conversation about control: who sets the rules, who keeps score, and what happens when we stop questioning the game we’re playing. Guest Bio Dr. C. Thi Nguyen is a philosopher whose work explores how games, metrics, and social systems shape human behaviour and values. A professor of philosophy at the University of Utah, his research sits at the intersection of ethics, decision-making, and the philosophy of agency, with a particular focus on how the structures around us influence what we care about and how we act. Alongside his academic work, Thi is also a keen gamer, rock climber, and cook; interests that inform his thinking about play, challenge, and the richness of human experience beyond what can be easily measured. AI-Generated Timestamped Summary 00:00 – Introduction: games, metrics, and meaning 03:00 – How Thi came to study games and philosophy 07:00 – What games are (and why they matter) 10:00 – Achievement vs striving play 13:00 – Cheating and misunderstanding the point of games 16:00 – Games, struggle, and meaningful activity 18:00 – Cooking, recipes, and rules 22:00 – Metrics as simplified rule systems 25:00 – Value capture and how metrics reshape goals 29:00 – Why institutions rely on measurement 32:00 – Quantification and loss of context 36:00 – Rules, algorithms, and expertise 40:00 – Standardisation and the cost of consistency 43:00 – Transparency, trust, and unintended consequences 47:00 – Metrics and the loss of expert judgment 50:00 – Ungrading and the limits of removing metrics 54:00 – Designing better scoring systems 58:00 – Gamification and why it misses the point 01:02:00 – Choosing your own game 01:06:00 – Final reflections and closing Relevant Links Thi’s personal website – https://objectionable.net/ His faculty page - https://profiles.faculty.utah.edu/u6021584 The Score: How to Stop Playing Someone Else’s Game - https://www.penguin.co.uk/books/457380/the-score-by-nguyen-c-thi/9780241653975 Thi on Bluesky – https://bsky.app/profile/add-hawk.bsky.social

We tend to assume that if we’re working hard, we’re working well. But what if that isn’t true? Episode Summary My guest on this episode is Phil Dobson , author of The Brain Book and founder of Brain Workshops , about what he calls 'cognitive leadership': using neuroscience and psychology to help people sustain performance, think more clearly, and navigate uncertainty. Phil explains how a broken ankle led him from music and sales into hypnotherapy, neuroscience, and leadership development, and why he believes most of us are never properly taught how our brains actually work. In a wide-ranging discussion, we explore the difference between productivity and effectiveness, why attention may be our most valuable asset, and how modern working life often undermines flow, creativity, and good decision-making. We also discuss stress, workload, digital distraction, the limits of measurement, and what organisations get wrong when they try to manage people as if more time always equals more value. Discover how leaders can create better conditions for thinking, resilience, creativity, and change; and why understanding the human brain matters far beyond the workplace. Episode Summaruy why most of us are taught far too little about how our brains work Phil’s unusual route from musician to hypnotherapist to neuroscience-based leadership adviser the difference between being productive and being effective why self-employment sharpened Phil’s focus on impact rather than activity how experimentation, iteration, and reflection shape better ways of working the distinction between fun and fulfilment flow states and why modern life makes them harder to access the growing importance of attention in a world of distraction why stress management has to include workload management, not just breathing techniques how rest, breaks, and so-called “unproductive” time often drive insight and creativity why measuring people too narrowly can damage performance how understanding the brain helps leaders navigate change and uncertainty why improving human decision-making matters not just for performance, but for reducing costly mistakes AI-Generated Timestamped Summary 00:00 — Introduction: busyness vs effectiveness 02:00 — Phil’s journey into cognitive leadership 07:00 — Productivity vs effectiveness (and the 80/20 shift) 12:00 — Experimentation, habits, and fulfilment 17:00 — Flow, focus, and attention under pressure 22:00 — Attention as a critical (and under threat) asset 27:00 — Why knowing isn’t the same as doing 31:00 — Rethinking productivity: energy, creativity, and insight 36:00 — The neuroscience of better thinking (default mode network) 40:00 — Measurement, management, and leadership challenges 45:00 — Human performance beyond the workplace 50:00 — Human error, decision-making, and risk 55:00 — Evolving work: shorter weeks and smarter working 58:00 — Leading change with a brain-based approach 01:03:00 — Final reflections and closing Relevant Links Phil's website - https://phildobson.com/ Brain Workshops - https://brainworkshops.co.uk/ Phil on LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/brainworkshops/ The Brain Book - https://www.amazon.com/Brain-Book-Smarter-Concise-Advice/dp/1910649732

What lessons does a religious protest that led to an uprising in 1549 have to do with human risk? At first glance, not very much. It’s easy to see it as a distant historical event — something about religion, kings, and a very different world. But as my guest, Professor Mark Stoyle explains, the Western Rising of 1549 is far more than that. It’s a powerful example of what happens when authority imposes change without understanding how people will react. Episode Summary This episode started on a train journey to Exeter, where I was due to give a talk. Looking for a local story to make my presentation more relevant, I stumbled across a battle that had taken place just outside the venue in 1549. The more I read, the clearer it became that this wasn’t just history, it was a case study in compliance, behaviour, and unintended consequences. Guest Profile Mark is a historian and leading expert on what he calls the Western Rising of 1549. In this conversation, we explore how sweeping religious changes imposed by those in power triggered resistance, how small incidents escalated into a major rebellion, and why identity, belief, and emotion played such a critical role. Along the way, we discuss how history is written (and biased), why changing language can provoke outrage rather than acceptance, and what this story reveals about leadership, risk, and human behaviour today. AI-Generated Timestamped Summary 00:00 – Introduction: a compliance failure in 1549 01:00 – The train journey to Exeter 02:00 – Discovering the rebellion 04:00 – Why this is a human risk story 05:15 – Introducing Professor Mark Stoyle 07:30 – Setting the historical context 10:00 – Power, authority, and instability 13:30 – What triggered the rising 17:00 – Why language change caused outrage 22:00 – Early resistance and local incidents 25:00 – The tipping point: violence begins 29:00 – How the rebellion spreads 33:00 – The siege of Exeter 37:00 – How history is written by the victors 41:00 – Crushing the rebellion 45:00 – Cultural consequences and language loss 48:00 – Lessons for today 52:00 – Polarisation and modern parallels 57:00 – Final reflections In this episode we discuss Key Topics Why imposed change can trigger resistance How small incidents escalate into major crises The role of identity, belief, and emotion in decision-making Why language and culture matter in compliance How authority can misjudge human behaviour The dangers of polarisation and “us vs them” thinking Why compromise becomes impossible in extreme positions How history is shaped by those who win The unintended consequences of leadership decisions What a 16th-century rebellion teaches us about modern risk Guest Profile Mark Stoyle is Professor of History at the University of Southampton. He specialises in Tudor rebellions, the English Civil War, and the history of witchcraft. Originally from Devon, his work on the Western Rising of 1549 draws on decades of research and a deep personal connection to the region where these events took place. Links The Western Rising of 1549, Mark's book - https://yalebooks.co.uk/book/9780300276886/the-western-rising-of-1549/ Mark's University of Southampton profile page - https://www.southampton.ac.uk/people/5wyxqy/professor-mark-stoyle Mark's publisher profile: - https://www.worldturnedupsidedown.co.uk/team/mark-stoyle/

What exactly is a sign? At first glance, that might sound like a strange question. Signs are everywhere: telling us where to go, what to do, what not to do, and sometimes what might happen if we ignore instructions. But as my guest, Jeffrey Ludlow Saentz explains, signs are much more than bits of information on walls or beside roads. Episode Summary Jeffrey is a signage designer who works on complex buildings and environments around the world — airports, offices, museums, and other places where helping people find their way really matters. He’s also the author of A Sign Is... , a fascinating book exploring the history, meaning, and cultural significance of the signs that shape our everyday behaviour. In this conversation, we explore why good signage is often invisible, how buildings “speak” to us through wayfinding systems, and what signs reveal about power, trust, and human behaviour. Along the way we discuss hacked traffic signs, casino design, airport navigation, and why something as simple as an arrow carries centuries of history. AI-Generated Timestamped Summary 00:00 – Introduction: why signs are more interesting than they first appear 03:00 – How Jeffrey became a signage designer 04:00 – The challenge of helping people navigate complex buildings 07:00 – What actually is a sign? 09:00 – Why “everything can be a sign” 11:00 – The power dynamics behind signage and authority 13:00 – How designers observe signage in the real world 14:30 – Cultural differences in wayfinding and navigation 19:30 – Why Jeffrey wrote A Sign Is.. 22:00 – The fascinating history of fire safety signage 24:00 – Curiosity and the stories hidden behind everyday signs 27:00 – Hacked construction signs and unexpected messages 31:00 – Trust, authority, and information on signs 35:00 – Advertising, nudging, and attention 36:00 – Information overload and competing signals 39:00 – The learned language of signs and symbols 41:00 – Why good signage is “invisible” when it works 43:00 – Airports, trust, and wayfinding design 46:00 – How people become signage designers 47:30 – How casinos, airports, and museums use signs differently 50:00 – The psychology of navigation 54:00 – Why signage can’t work perfectly for everyone 57:00 – Why wayfinding is an art rather than a science 01:02:00 – Jeffrey’s book A Sign Is and where to find it 01:04:00 – What signs might look like in the future In this episode we discuss Key Topics Why signage is a form of behavioural communication How buildings “talk” to people through wayfinding systems The psychology of navigation and spatial awareness Why good signage is invisible How casinos deliberately make navigation harder Why museums minimise signs while airports maximise them The cultural differences in how places are navigated What hacked traffic signs reveal about trust in authority Why signs act as nudges that shape behaviour The limits of signage when designing for large groups How digital navigation may change our relationship with physical signs About Jeffrey Jeffrey Ludlow is a signage and wayfinding designer and founder of Point of Reference Studio, a design practice specialising in signage systems, environmental graphics, and branding for public environments. Trained as an architect, Jeffrey’s work sits at the intersection of architecture, graphic design, and behavioural psychology — helping people navigate complex spaces more intuitively. He is the author of A Sign Is, a book exploring the cultural, historical, and behavioural significance of the signs that surround us. Links Jeffrey's book 'A Sign Is...' - https://oroeditions.com/product/a-sign-is Point of Reference, the Madrid-based studio Jeffrey founded - https://pointofreference.studio/

What Can a Cocktail Teach Us About Curiosity and Creativity? At first glance, documenting Negronis around the world might sound like a frivolous hobby. But could a simple cocktail become a vehicle for curiosity, experimentation and creative thinking? On this episode, I speaks with geopolitical strategist Marc A Ross about an unusual passion project: ordering and documenting Negronis wherever he travels. What began as a casual habit has evolved into a magazine-style project called 50 Negronis , capturing cocktails from elegant bars to chaotic airport lounges. Along the way, the project has revealed something deeper about travel, culture and the value of experimentation. But as the conversation unfolds, it becomes clear this episode isn’t really about cocktails. Instead it’s about how curiosity leads to discovery, why creative side projects matter, and how experimentation can enrich both our professional and personal lives. Curiosity Starts With Small Experiments Marc’s Negroni project began almost accidentally. While travelling frequently for his work as a geopolitical strategist, he started ordering Negronis and photographing them. What made the idea interesting wasn’t a search for the perfect drink. Instead, Marc documented the entire experience — the great cocktails, the mediocre ones, and the truly terrible ones. That curiosity created a lens through which to experience the world differently. Bars became places for conversation, experimentation and discovery, and the project grew into a collection of stories from cities across the globe. Creativity Through Play A key theme of the conversation is the importance of playfulness. Marc deliberately avoids treating the project too seriously. The photos are simple smartphone snapshots, the documentation is intentionally loose, and the goal isn’t perfection. That approach mirrors how many creative projects evolve; by removing the pressure to produce something “definitive,” the project becomes an experiment. And in the process, it becomes easier to create, learn and iterate. Authenticity, Communication and Personality We also explore how side projects can sharpen professional skills. Marc argues that communicators, leaders and even politicians should experiment creatively and share aspects of their personality. Authenticity matters. Whether it’s documenting cocktails, running unconventional events, or experimenting with new formats, people connect more with ideas that feel genuine. Sometimes the most powerful way to communicate is simply to follow an idea that genuinely interests you. AI-Generated Timestamped Summary 00:00 – A cocktail as a conversation starter Introduction; why Negronis might seem like an unusual topic for a podcast about human behaviour and yet… 02:00 – Recording in Sundance, Utah Marc describes the Brigadoon gathering and its focus on conversation rather than traditional conference formats. 04:00 – The origins of the Negroni Marc explains the history of the cocktail and why it remains a classic drink. 07:00 – The “50 Negronis” project A disappointing airport Negroni sparks the idea of documenting the drinks Marc encounters while travelling. 10:00 – Capturing cocktails around the world Marc explains how he photographs the drinks and records the ingredients when possible. 13:00 – Cocktail culture and experimentation They discuss how bartenders experiment with ingredients and create new variations. 18:00 – Why the details don’t matter The project becomes less about recipes and more about stories, places and experiences. 22:00 – Learning through experimentation Christian reflects on how creative side projects can help people learn and explore new ideas. 30:00 – Lessons for communicators and politicians Marc explains why authenticity and personality matter in leadership. 37:00 – Staying curious and having fun The conversation turns to persistence, creativity and the value of pursuing ideas simply because they’re interesting. 42:00 – Where to follow Marc’s work Marc shares details about Brigadoon events and his geopolitical newsletter. Links Caracal Global, Marc’s consultancy and advisory firm - https://www.caracal.global/ Brigadoon, Marc’s series of lovingly curated events - https://www.brigadoon.live/ Marc on LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/marcaross/ Marc’s previous appearance on the show - https://www.humanriskpodcast.com/marc-ross-on-communication-strategy/ Sundance Mountain Resort - https://www.sundanceresort.com/

What’s the difference between a mistake… and a bad decision? My guest knows this only too well. Tom Hardin has been on the show several times before. As Tipper X, he wore a wire for the FBI and helped build the largest insider trading investigation in US history. Since then, he has spent nearly a decade speaking to organisations around the world about slippery slopes, rationalisation, and how good people drift into serious trouble. In this episode, he returns to discuss his new book, Wired on Wall Street. The book goes beyond the insider trading case many listeners already know. It explores the ambition, insecurity and desire for status that shaped his early career, and the patterns he only recognised years later when writing it down. For the first time on a podcast, Tom is also joined by his wife, Sue. She played no role in the trades that changed his life, but her life was dramatically altered by them. She reflects on discovering the truth, keeping a secret that wasn’t hers, facing sentencing uncertainty, and what it means to rebuild together. This conversation isn’t really about insider trading; it’s about character. Key Themes Why calling something a “mistake” can soften accountability The psychology of slippery slopes and rationalisation Status anxiety and the need to belong Resume virtues vs eulogy virtues Shame versus guilt — and why the distinction matters The hidden impact of ethical failure on spouses and families What writing a book can reveal that telling a story on stage cannot The freedom that comes from having nothing left to hide Tom’s story is unusual; the human dynamics behind it are not. AI-Generated Timestamped Summary 00:00 – More than insider trading Why this conversation is about character — guilt vs shame, mistakes vs bad decisions, and the cost of ethical drift. 02:30 – The story in brief Tom recaps becoming “Tipper X” and helping build the largest insider trading investigation in US history. 03:15 – Why write the book now? After a decade of speaking, Tom explains what finally pushed him to put the full story — childhood, ambition, insecurity — on paper. 08:00 – The deeper pattern From Georgia to the Ivy League to hedge funds: the outsider mindset, status anxiety, and the slippery slope. 16:00 – Small decisions, big consequences Early corner-cutting, rationalisation, and the fraud triangle in action. 26:00 – Resume virtues vs eulogy virtues How Tom’s definition of success changed — and the difference between shame and guilt. 31:00 – A simple test for integrity One question that could replace most Codes of Conduct: Are you willing to be held accountable for this decision? Sue’s Perspective 40:30 – The night she found out Shock, disbelief, and the future collapsing in an instant. 44:00 – Keeping a secret that wasn’t hers White lies, reputational fear, and the strain of silence. 49:00 – Sentencing day Why she insisted on being there — no matter the outcome. 52:30 – Reinvention and resilience Stay-at-home dad years, ultramarathons, and rebuilding a life together. Links Wired on Wall Street: www.tipperx.com/book Tipper X Website: www.tipperx.com Tom's previous appearances on the show: Tom's experience as FBI Informant Tipper X - https://www.humanriskpodcast.com/tom-hardin-on-his-experience/ Turning Crime Into A Calling - https://www.humanriskpodcast.com/tom-hardin-on-turning-a-crime-into-a-calling/ Tom's Substack: https://substack.com/@tipperx Tom on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/tipperx/

What happens when someone runs with a business idea they've heard as a thought experiment on a podcast? Can a business have an expletive in its name? And is it possible to run a business that sells a single very specific product? Episode Summary On this episode, I’m joined by Charlie Hurst, Tom Noble and Will Sudlow — the founders of Flat White or F* ck Off *, a coffee brand inspired by a thought experiment by friend of the show,Rory Sutherland. The concept is simple: sell one thing — flat whites — and if you want something else… the answer’s in the name. ⚠️ *Given the name of the business, this episode contains a lot of swearing! Within four months of hearing the idea on Jamie Laing’s Great Company podcast, they’d banded together — having never met but being isnpired to give the business a go — built a brand, grown an audience of tens of thousands, and served 1,500 flat whites in a single day at a London pop-up. Most people would've treated Rory's idea as an interesting thought experiment. But Charlie, Tom and Will decided — with Rory's blessing — to actually build it. In an extended conversation, we explore what it means to: Build a brand before you have a product Grow an audience before you open a shop Share your financials publicly Deliberately polarise rather than please Discover why Charlie, Tom and Will spent £22,000 on a one-day loss-making pop-that served as a live experiment; part marketing, part proof of concept, part behavioural case study. We discuss why constraint can be liberating, why queues affect perceived quality, how social proof shapes demand, and why narrowing your audience can be more powerful than trying to attract everyone. This isn’t just a story about coffee. It’s about conviction, creative constraint and what happens when you deliberately ignore conventional business wisdom. Guest Bios Charlie Hurst Designer and brand builder. Charlie created the original visual identity for Flat White or F*ck Off after seeing Rory’s idea online. Tom Noble Entrepreneur and digital builder. Tom documented the entire journey in public, helping grow the brand’s audience before a single coffee was sold. Will Sudlow Co-founder of experiential agency The Impossible . Will brought production expertise to turn the idea into a large-scale pop-up event. AI-Generated Timestamped Summary 00:00 – From Thought Experiment to Real Business: why this is more than a coffee story. 03:00 – Hearing Rory’s Idea: how Charlie, Tom and Will discovered the concept and decided to act on it. 08:00 – Building in Public: growing an audience before having a physical product; documenting everything online. 15:00 – One Product Only: why selling just flat whites is a strategic constraint — and a behavioural signal. 25:00 – The Pop-Up Experiment: erving 1,500 coffees in a day; spending £27,000 as a marketing investment. 35:00 – Polarisation & Backlash: criticism, online sceptics and why not being for everyone is the point. 50:00 – Perception, Queues & Behaviour: what they learned about speed, quality signals and social proof. 01:05:00 – Risk, Conviction & Entrepreneurship: why building something in public is both terrifying and liberating. 01:20:00 – What Happens Next: scaling, experimentation and staying true to the core idea. Links Rory on Jamie Laing’s Great Company podcast - https://shows.acast.com/great-company/episodes/rory-sutherland Flat White or F*ck Off - https://flatwhiteorfckoff.com/ Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/flatwhiteorfckoff/ TikTok - https://www.tiktok.com/@flatwhiteorfckoff/ LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/company/flat-white-or-fck-off/ The co-founders Tom on LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/thomasnoble1992/ Charlie on LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/charlie-hurst-715364150/ Will on LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/willsudlow/ Ask The Impossible - https://asktheimpossible.com/ Rory's appearances on this show: https://www.humanriskpodcast.com/rory-sutherland-on-compliance/ https://www.humanriskpodcast.com/rory-sutherland-paul-craven-on-alchemy-magic/ https://www.humanriskpodcast.com/gerald-ashley-rory-sutherland/ https://www.humanriskpodcast.com/rory-sutherland-gerald-ashley-paul-craven-at-abbey-road-part-one/