Faith Matters

Today, we decided to bring back one of our favorite conversations with Casper ter Kuile, because he'll be joining us this next week, September 24th through 26th, at Restore:Connect. Casper has spent years exploring the changing landscape of spiritual life in America, especially the new ways that people are finding belonging, meaning, transformation, and even sacredness as traditional religious participation declines. About a decade ago, Casper and his fellow Harvard Divinity School classmate, Angie Thurston, wrote a fascinating report called How We Gather, looking at the ways that millennials were finding forms of spiritual community in seemingly secular spaces, from CrossFit and SoulCycle to social justice movements. Since then, Casper has continued exploring how we create meaningful spiritual lives. He co-hosted the beloved podcast, Harry Potter and the Sacred Text. He wrote The Power of Ritual and launched The Nearness, an online community built around exploring life's big questions together. In this conversation, Zach Davis talks with Casper about what he's learned from years of studying and working at the edges of America's evolving spiritual landscape. We are so excited to share it again since Casper will be joining us next week. If you don't have your tickets for Restore:Connect yet, now is the time. We would love to see you there so you can hear more from Casper and so many other incredible speakers. You can go to faithmatters.org/restore for tickets. Join us September 24-26 at Restore:Connect and don't let finances stop you from joining us - email info@faithmatters.org for a scholarship if you or someone you know could use one.

Today we're joined by Colette Lafia, a spiritual director, poet, and author whose newest book Leaving the Shore: Experiencing Poetry as Prayer invites us into a different way of meeting the divine than we might be used to. Much of our faith language often centers on effort—perseverance, pressing forward, fighting the good fight. Colette offers a somewhat gentler direction: the idea that relationship with God can look much more like surrender than striving. One of the most vivid parts of the conversation is Colette's take on delight. She traces it back to relationship: the moment she stopped approaching God as someone to plead with, and started experiencing the connection as something to simply enjoy. Her point isn't that discipline or commitment don't matter—she still believes in practices that cultivate a spiritual life—but that delight can carry us there without so much of the striving we're used to. We felt like this conversation is an invitation to loosen our grips on outcomes, on certainty, even on the idea that connection with God has to be earned, and to notice what opens up when we let delight and creativity lead instead. Join us September 24-26 at Restore:Connect and don't let finances stop you from joining us - email info@faithmatters.org for a scholarship if you or someone you know could use one.

Today we're joined by John White, a theologian and ethicist who is currently Research Fellow at BYU's Maxwell Institute — and who has a fascinating and unexpected story that led him to convert to the Church just under a year ago. For over a decade, John was a tenured professor of practical theology and ethics at Baylor's Truett Theological Seminary, where he directed the graduate chaplaincy program. His work has been at the intersection of theology, ethics, and everyday embodied life—character formation, moral agency, and the ways our institutions and practices shape who we become. Then a few years ago, an unexplainable experience at an academic conference set him on a path he never saw coming, one that eventually led him to baptism. What made this conversation so fascinating for us, is that John brings the full weight of that background to the questions many of us have lived with our whole lives. Together we explore the theology of the body—what it means to embrace the body, not just tolerate it, and how our theology supports that idea. We wrestled a bit with the phrase “the Church is true,” and how a Christ-centered lens might free us from treating every question as a row of dominoes. And we spent some real time on the problem of agency—where our freedom actually lives, and how it might expand as we act in concert with the divine. Again and again, John helped us see things we'd almost stopped noticing, and hear language we take for granted with fresh ears. We’re excited to share this one. Join us September 24-26 at Restore:Connect and don't let finances stop you from joining us - email info@faithmatters.org for a scholarship if you or someone you know could use one.

Today we’re bringing you a session we loved from last year’s Restore with Thomas McConkie . There’s a particular overwhelm I know that often comes with learning something new—a low-grade worry that I’m already missing something, forgetting the important pieces, not going to be able to hang onto it all. When it comes to personal development or spiritual truth, that worry can feel especially high stakes. In this session, Thomas offers what has felt to me like an antidote to all of that striving. The deepest truths, he says, aren’t hiding somewhere just out of reach — they’re woven into our actual lived experience, so close we can’t help but bump into them again and again. As Thomas puts it, “Sacred reality is so good you can’t miss it.” There’s something incredibly freeing to me about trusting that what is most true and most sacred will keep finding us. I’ve thought about this session and his message often since last year, and I’m excited to finally share it with you. Thomas will be back with us at Restore:Connect this September, so you’ll be able to hear more from him there. You can get your tickets now at faithmatters.org/restore ! And be sure to check out Thomas’ podcast One Heart One Mind , produced by Faith Matters, as well as his book At-One-Ment. Available on Bookshop.org Available on Amazon Join us September 24-26 at Restore:Connect and don't let finances stop you from joining us - email info@faithmatters.org for a scholarship if you or someone you know could use one.

This week, we're asking: how do you fit a full Sunday School lesson into twenty-five minutes? Our worldwide church is shifting to shorter lesson blocks, and teachers everywhere are feeling nervous. Isaiah in 25 minutes? What do you cut, what do you keep? Today we're sitting down with Patrick and Melissa Mason to think through this transition and to really embrace it as an invitation to consider what church is actually for. We talk about the difference between content and communion , why less can genuinely be more, and get some great tips for preparing for these blocks. We get into the unglamorous but invaluable art of ending on time, and for anybody worried about the quick transitions, Patrick invites us to consider whether getting stuck in the hallway to catch up with a friend or hear about what’s going on in the life of a neighbor might not be defeating the purpose of church so much as fulfilling it. Patrick is the Leonard J. Arrington Chair of Mormon History and Culture at Utah State University and Melissa is a clinical social worker and therapist whose work focuses on relationships and personal growth. Both Patrick and Melissa spend so much of their daily lives teaching, listening, and engaging in meaningful conversation, and we couldn’t imagine better people to help us think through how these 25 minutes might become genuinely nourishing and powerful moments in our spiritual lives. Patrick and Melissa will both be joining us at Restore:Connect this year so if you’d like to hear more from them, you can get your tickets now at Faithmatters.org/restore ! Join us September 24-26 at Restore:Connect and don't let finances stop you from joining us - email info@faithmatters.org for a scholarship if you or someone you know could use one.

Most of us can probably recall a verse or two from the book of Psalms—something comforting, or words inside a hymn we know. But Psalms is the longest book in the Bible, and tucked inside this same book of scripture are psalms of rage, cursing, and despair that are a lot harder to make sense of. Today, Dr. Ellen Davis joins us to talk about this ancient, essential book, and describes the Psalms as a kind of script for the full range of human experience before God. The Psalms, she says, expose “all parts of our soul for healing.” In this conversation, Ellen, who has spent years translating the Psalms, shows us just how expansive this ancient prayer book really is. She calls the Psalms a kind of “First Amendment” for the life of faith: permission to bring everything before God. Even the shape of the book reflects that, with lament gradually giving way to praise by the book’s end. Ellen also takes us beneath some familiar translations with words like nefesh , usually rendered “soul.” Ellen says this actually probably means something closer to our whole embodied self , challenging the idea that our spiritual lives are somehow separate or at odds with our physical ones. It’s another way the Psalms widen our sense of prayer—it’s a vision spacious enough to hold our grief, our anger, our bodies, our silence, and our joy, trusting that all of it belongs in our relationship with God. Dr. Ellen F. Davis is the Amos Ragan Kearns Distinguished Professor of Bible and Practical Theology at Duke Divinity School and the author of several books exploring scripture and the life of faith, including extensive work on the Psalms. Join us September 24-26 at Restore:Connect and don't let finances stop you from joining us - email info@faithmatters.org for a scholarship if you or someone you know could use one.

Job is probably one of the most difficult and haunting books in scripture, and this summer as we read it together, we wanted a guide—so we invited Mike Petrow back to join us. With doctoral degrees in psychology and mythological studies, Mike helps us understand Job as an ancient text, and as a story that continues to speak in our own lives. Today Mike takes us straight into one of the most striking turns in this story: Job’s friends show up in his deep suffering, and one by one try to defend God with tidy theology, debate him out of his grief, and ultimately accuse him of bringing this suffering on himself. But then God show up and finally speaks, rebuking the friends and declaring that it is Job—the one who questioned, lamented, and wrestled—who has spoken truthfully. Mike unpacks what that reversal means for anyone who’s ever felt like their questions made them the problem. And then there’s Job himself: a good man who loses everything. Mike walks us through what this ancient story has to teach us about our own doubt, grief, and the sacred work of asking questions—showing again how honest questioning can be the threshold to a richer spiritual imagination and deeper faith. Dr. Mike Petrow is the host of The Healer With a Thousand Faces and one of the lead hosts on the Everything Belongs podcast with Father Richard Rohr. He’s the Manager of Formation for the Center for Action and Contemplation, a jungian spiritual director, and a certified grief and trauma counselor. And we are so thrilled to share that he’ll be joining us live at Restore:Connect this year! We hope this conversation is nourishing and sparks lots of new insights for you as you study the book of Job this month. Join us September 24-26 at Restore:Connect and don't let finances stop you from joining us - email info@faithmatters.org for a scholarship if you or someone you know could use one.

When Dallin Zimmerman was four years old, he memorized every Article of Faith. As a teenager, he studied Portuguese and Spanish, and had long been the family's peacemaker — a bright, fun-loving light that people gravitate toward. Today he's serving a full-time mission in South America. And at thirteen, years before any of that, he sat down with his parents and asked a question that would shape everything ahead: "What if I'm gay?" Today we're talking with Dave and Kirty, Dallin's parents, married 22 years, raising four kids, longtime Utah County residents. For more than three years, they kept Dallin's story private, scared of what they might lose, and of what it would cost Dallin if their community found out. Many of their questions remained unresolved. But eventually, the secret became too heavy to carry alone. So together, they helped Dallin share his story with trusted leaders in their ward, in a gathering of Young Men and Young Women leaders who had known him for years, he bore his testimony, and shared that he is gay. One by one, these leaders stood up, embraced him and assured him that he was so loved—and that he belonged. That moment marked the beginning of a new way forward, where isolation gave way to the healing that comes from being known and loved. In this conversation, Dave and Kirty are remarkably candid about the fear they felt at first, the questions that still remain, and the unexpected ways this journey has transformed them—a journey that, as Kirty says, has become "the biggest blessing of their lives." Dave and Kirty would be the first to tell you their story isn't a prescription for any other family's journey. But if you're a parent near the beginning of this path, or a leader wondering how to better love and support the youth in your ward, we hope you'll be inspired by their courage, their humility, and creativity. You can find even more resources around this topic on our website, faithmatters.org. Join us September 24-26 at Restore:Connect and don't let finances stop you from joining us - email info@faithmatters.org for a scholarship if you or someone you know could use one.

Today we’re honored to share a conversation with Peter Wehner . We want to acknowledge that this conversation explores territory that is going to feel personal, political, and, probably at some points, challenging. Our hope that it creates honest and faithful wrestling where where we need it. Today, we explore what it means to follow Jesus in a time when political identities increasingly compete with religious ones. Pete argues that Christians have always faced the temptation to use the Bible to back up our own opinions rather than allowing the life of Christ to reshape us. He challenges us to consider how certainty may be blinding, explains that a healthy patriotism deepens our love of neighbor, and emphasizes the revolutionary nature of Jesus’s love for those on the margins and calls us to consider what all of this means for Christians today. Pete has spent decades at the intersection of faith and politics, serving in three Republican administrations, including as a speechwriter and director of the Office of Strategic Initiatives to President George W. Bush. He’s now a contributing writer for The Atlantic and The New York Times . Throughout his career, he’s consistently challenged himself and others to think with moral seriousness, intellectual honesty, and Christian charity. This conversation invited us to think more deeply about where our deepest allegiances belong. We found it thoughtful, grounding, and so worthwhile, and we hope you will too. And with that, we’ll jump right into our conversation with Peter Wehner. Join us September 24-26 at Restore:Connect and don't let finances stop you from joining us - email info@faithmatters.org for a scholarship if you or someone you know could use one.

Today we’re pulling out one of our favorite episodes from the archives. Our guest is Pete Enns, a well-known bible scholar and the Abram S. Clemens professor of Bible Studies at Eastern University in Pennsylvania. In recent years, Pete has become well known for several highly popular books, including How the Bible Actually Works , The Bible Tells Me So , and the book we discussed with him in this episode: The Sin of Certainty . In addition to his research and writing, Pete co-hosts the podcast The Bible for Normal People . In The Sin of Certainty , Pete opens up about his own faith journey, including what he calls “uh-oh” moments — those moments that, as Pete says, “wreak havoc with our neatly arranged thoughts of God, the world, and our place in it.” He makes the argument that a faith preoccupied with correct thinking can quickly become exhausting as we try to force disruptive experiences into our existing frameworks. Pete insists that there’s a different way—the way of listening to those moments and learning from them, even letting them change us—and discovering a faith that shifts from rigid certainty about God to a more open, resilient trust in God. This conversation has really stayed with us over the years, and we are so excited to share it with you now. You can also watch the presentation Pete gave at Restore 2023, " What Our Strange Universe is Telling Us About God and Faith ," on our YouTube channel. Join us September 24-26 at Restore:Connect and don't let finances stop you from joining us - email info@faithmatters.org for a scholarship if you or someone you know could use one.

Today we’re joined by two thoughtful therapists, teachers, peacebuilders, and friends, Amanda Ford and Melissa Mason. Together with their spouses, Patrick Mason and Chad Ford, Melissa and Amanda have dedicated years to the work of building peace in families, communities, and faith spaces. But in this conversation, they invite us to consider the foundation of all lasting peace: the quiet, often difficult work of cultivating peace within ourselves. Drawing from their work as therapists and educators, Amanda and Melissa offer a vision of emotional wholeness that challenges many of the assumptions our culture rewards. Together we explore how striving, productivity, and constant achievement may inadvertently shape our sense of worth, and ask why so many of us find it so difficult to rest—even when we desperately need it. They ask us to become more fluent in the wisdom of our bodies and to rediscover rest—not as something we earn, but as both a spiritual practice and a commandment. Again and again, they remind us that spiritual formation isn’t a race toward perfection, that every season of our lives can become part of who we’re growing into. We hope this conversation helps you notice the ways you might be being invited into more rest and presence and less striving. Learn more about their work at Waymakers at waymakers.us Join us September 24-26 at Restore:Connect and don't let finances stop you from joining us - email info@faithmatters.org for a scholarship if you or someone you know could use one.

Today we’re joined by Ryan Burge, one of the country’s leading data analysts on religion and politics, to talk about his new book, The Vanishing Church: How the Hollowing Out of Moderate Congregations Is Hurting Democracy, Faith, and Us . For decades, we’ve measured the decline of American religion by empty pews and shrinking membership rolls. Ryan invites us to see another, deeper loss. As moderate congregations disappear, we’re also losing one of the last places where people with real differences—in politics, class, age, education, and conviction—learn how to love each other as neighbors. At a time when it’s easier than ever to sort ourselves into smaller and more like-minded communities, church has remained one of the few places where belonging asks something of us. It asks us to listen, to worship beside people we didn’t choose. Ryan argues that this kind of community forms the habits of empathy, compromise, and civic trust that democracy itself depends on. Ryan brings data and his own lived experience to this conversation, having spent years as a pastor watching his own congregation slowly disappear. It’s a challenging discussion about what church is for, what we’re losing, and why he believes showing to worship with people you may disagree with politically might be one of the most countercultural, and necessary, things we can do for our country right now. You can buy Ryan's book on Bookshop.org and Amazon.com . Join us September 24-26 at Restore:Connect and don't let finances stop you from joining us - email info@faithmatters.org for a scholarship if you or someone you know could use one.

As we approach America's 250th birthday, we're reminded that every generation inherits the responsibility of shaping the nation's future. At a moment marked by fear, division, and distrust, the invitation to become peacemakers has never felt more urgent. Today, we're sharing a powerful message from Patrick Mason, that he shared at our Restore Gathering at Utah Valley University last year, just two weeks after the tragic shooting of Charlie Kirk on the same campus. Speaking only a few hundred yards from the memorial, Patrick reminds us that violence is never the end of the story. The gospel invites us to answer fear with courage, suspicion with curiosity, and enmity with love. We love Patrick's conviction that peacemaking is the work of discipleship. It is the work of Zion. And as we prepare to commemorate the 250th anniversary of the Declaration of Independence, he invites us to declare our own independence—from the politics of fear, from contempt, from tribalism, and from the habits that keep us divided. Instead, he calls on all of us to join "a revolution of friendship and civility." When he finished speaking at Restore, the room erupted. There was a palpable sense of hope and energy— that ordinary people really can help heal a divided world. As you celebrate this Independence Day, we hope you'll be filled with that same conviction. Join us September 24-26 at Restore:Connect and don't let finances stop you from joining us - email info@faithmatters.org for a scholarship if you or someone you know could use one.

Today we're delighted to share a conversation with Robin Ritch about her new book, Using Friction to Grow: Stories of Strength and Resilience . Many of us spend our lives trying to avoid friction. We want our faith to feel clear, our communities to feel supportive, and our spiritual lives to move forward without too much tension or uncertainty. But today Robin's asking, "What if our deepest growth comes not in spite of friction, but because of it?" And that's at the heart of her book. Through interviews with a remarkable generation of Latter-day Saint women—many of them grandmothers now—Robin uncovers stories of faith, resilience, and spiritual maturity that feel so relevant today. These women faced difficult questions, competing loyalties, and real tension between their deepest convictions and the world around them. Yet rather than allowing that friction to diminish their faith, they used it to deepen their relationship with God and expand their capacity to serve. Robin herself has spent a career building and leading transformative organizations, including at Microsoft, Intel, and most recently as President and Publisher of Deseret News. But this book grew out of a lifelong fascination with women's spiritual lives and the wisdom that can be found in their stories. Whether you're currently navigating friction in your own faith journey or simply looking for examples of courage and grace, we think you'll find this conversation both reassuring and inspiring. You can buy your copy of Using Friction to Grow on Bookshop.org ! Join us September 24-26 at Restore:Connect and don't let finances stop you from joining us - email info@faithmatters.org for a scholarship if you or someone you know could use one.

Today we’re sharing a special conversation courtesy of our friends at Lift+Love . This is a conversation recorded at their first ever Gather Conference in 2023, the world’s largest Christ-centered gathering of LGBTQ Latter-day Saints and those who love them. In this session, two men sat down together: Tom Christofferson and Darius Gray. Both are devoted Latter-day Saints who know what it is to love the Church while also having experienced real marginalization within it. Darius Gray is a Black Latter-day Saint who was baptized on December 26th, 1964 — fourteen years before the revelation that lifted the priesthood and temple ban. He entered the waters of baptism knowing he could not hold the priesthood, and he built his faith anyway. He helped found the Genesis Group, he waited, he worked. And on a day in June 1978, everything changed. This June, we’re sitting with what that means. There is something powerful in Darius’s story—his rootedness, his patience, his refusal to let institutional limitation become the ceiling of his faith. Tom Christofferson, as a gay Latter-day Saint, knows something about that too. What you’re about to hear is a conversation between two men who have walked and who are walking long roads, who are holding hard questions, and who are bearing witness to a God whose work continues to unfold in their lives. It is warm and honest and full of hope. We think you’ll find, as we did, that it stays with you. Join us September 24-26 at Restore:Connect and don't let finances stop you from joining us - email info@faithmatters.org for a scholarship if you or someone you know could use one.

Today we’re honored to share a special session from Restore 2025 featuring Steven Kapp Perry , Alisha Anderson , and Ben Schilaty —three gay Latter-day Saints who have each taken different paths, and who share a deep commitment to following God with honesty, courage, and faith. In this on-stage conversation, Steve, Alisha, and Ben share personal and vulnerable reflections on what it means to seek God when the road ahead feels uncertain, and the courage it takes to keep moving forward in faith. They explore belonging, revelation, and the complexity of spiritual life as they describe discerning and following paths that looked very different from one another’s and the ones they once expected—often amid the pain of being misunderstood. This session was a powerful reminder that God is at work in every life, and that each person's journey is sacred. As Ben shares near the end of the conversation, "The stories that truly matter are the stories of the LGBTQ people that you know in your lives." That's our invitation this month. We hope this conversation opens the door to deeper connection with people in your own life whose paths may look different than your own. We’re grateful to Steve, Alisha, and Ben for their vulnerability and wisdom. You'll hear Steve mention a short film at the beginning of this session that tells more of Alisha’s story. It’s beautiful and moving, and you can watch it here . You can also watch a video recording of this session, including a musical performance from Steve and his wife, on our YouTube channel or Substack . You can order Ben's book A Walk in My Shoes here. Join us September 24-26 at Restore:Connect and don't let finances stop you from joining us - email info@faithmatters.org for a scholarship if you or someone you know could use one.

This week, wards across the United States will be having a really unique 5th Sunday discussion centered on the Constitution, moral agency, and peace-building. So today, we wanted to reshare a conversation that originally aired in 2021. In this episode, Faith Matters co-founder Bill Turnbull joins Judge Thomas Griffith, an expert in constitutional law, to explore the Constitution and the rapid erosion of goodwill and trust in American politics, including among Latter-day Saints. Judge Griffith sees the possibility of a serious crisis and believes that Latter-day Saints can and must play a critical role in healing today’s divides. We’ve also compiled lots of additional resources that we hope will help as you prepare for this special Sunday lesson—you can find those on our website (faithmatters.org) , and you can always find links to dig deeper into each episode in our free weekly newsletter . Thanks so much as always for listening, and we hope you enjoy the episode. Join us September 24-26 at Restore:Connect and don't let finances stop you from joining us - email info@faithmatters.org for a scholarship if you or someone you know could use one.

They call him the Mr. Rogers of farming, and I think you’ll understand why. Karl Ebeling spent 33 years as a chemical engineer before feeling an undeniable pull back to the land and to a childhood love of farming that had never really left him. He combined his love of the earth with desire to help and heal and founded Eden Streets in 2020, a community farming initiative that helps individuals relaunch their lives and cultivate community through farming. Karl has watched first hand as the earth does her healing work in the souls of men and women experiencing homelessness, addiction, or disconnection. Today, he joins us to talk about the gifts of creation, and what it might look like to, in Elder Causse’s words , “grow, enhance, and improve upon” them, and what that kind of stewardship does for our own souls. I was deeply moved by Karl’s grounded wisdom, his reverence for the Earth and by the lessons he’s learning from the natural world about rhythms, relationship, belonging, and peace. With planting season upon us, we hope this conversation inspires you to step outside, put your hands in the dirt, and experience the way the natural world is reaching out to heal you. You can find more from The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints on caring for the Earth here. Join us September 24-26 at Restore:Connect and don't let finances stop you from joining us - email info@faithmatters.org for a scholarship if you or someone you know could use one.

Today, we’re honored to share a conversation with Tish Harrison Warren on her beautiful brand new book, What Grows in Weary Lands . From the very first pages of this book, Tish gives us language for something so familiar. She writes about aridity —those seasons of spiritual drought, exhaustion, or distance from God, when prayer feels flat, faith feels heavy, and the life we once found nourishing suddenly feels barren. Then she also introduces us to the ancient idea of acedia —what the Desert Fathers and Mothers sometimes called “the noonday demon.” It’s that restless belief that life with God would be easier somewhere else, sometime else, with different work, different people, a different church, or a new set of circumstances. It’s a restlessness that wants to escape the ordinary demands of love in search of some imagined future where spiritual highs are constant and faith feels effortless. But Tish says these experiences of aridity and acedia aren’t signs that something has gone wrong, in fact, they are experiences that Christians throughout time have understood to be a normal—even necessary—part of spiritual maturity. In this conversation, she helps us see that the invitation in these weary seasons is not to force our way back into those spiritual highs, but to stay with prayer, to stay with the ordinary practices that have formed disciples for centuries, often staying with imperfect communities and relationships even after the shine has worn off and the brokenness becomes visible. She makes the case that that maturity often looks less like finding the perfect place, and more like learning how God meets us in imperfect places through patience, repair, and the slow work of love. Tish is an Anglican priest and author known for her award winning books Liturgy of the Ordinary and Prayer in the Night . Her new book, What Grows in Weary Lands , was released this week and is available on Bookshop.org , Amazon , or wherever books are sold. We are so grateful to Tish for coming on the podcast and we hope that you enjoy this conversation. Join us September 24-26 at Restore:Connect and don't let finances stop you from joining us - email info@faithmatters.org for a scholarship if you or someone you know could use one.

Today, as we celebrate our mothers and motherhood, we’re exploring the symbols of our Divine Mother hidden throughout ancient Christianity, and what it might mean for each of us—men and women—to cultivate and integrate divine femininity into our own souls. Our guests are Kathryn and Bob Sonntag, who joined us at Restore last year for a powerful session on ritual, wisdom, and our Divine Mother. Today, we’re bringing that conversation to everyone. Together, we explore where the symbol of the Mother appears in ancient Christian traditions and grapple honestly with what divine femininity and divine masculinity look like when we strip away the stereotypes that can become rigid and prescriptive. As Kathryn says, the feminine is, by its nature, subtle and hidden—something that has to be cultivated with intention. And when souls or systems overdevelop the masculine and lose touch with feminine wisdom (or vice versa), something essential goes missing. Neither the masculine nor the feminine can truly flourish without the other. We spend time on practical integration. Bob says that ritual is the way we translate meaning into action—the way spiritual truths become lived realities. And he says that ritual isn’t reserved for temples or holy days, but is available in the texture of ordinary life—in hospitality, shared meals, and the quiet rhythms of each day. When we bring intention to those moments, the mundane becomes sacred, and the deeper work of integration and transformation can take root. This one is for Mother’s Day, and for anyone ready to engage in this deep inner work. We hope you enjoy this conversation with Kathryn and Bob Sonntag. You can read more from Kathryn in her book, The Mother Tree , which is available on Amazon and at wayfaremagazine.org . You can read more from Bob at WayfareMagazine.org . Join us September 24-26 at Restore:Connect and don't let finances stop you from joining us - email info@faithmatters.org for a scholarship if you or someone you know could use one.