Career Relaunch®

<p>Hear Scott Lamb, VP of Content at Medium, discuss why writing remains such a powerful tool for thinking and communicating, especially in the age of AI, on Career Relaunch® podcast episode 111. We explore how consistent writing can help you clarify your ideas and build confidence. Scott also shares how putting your thoughts out into the world can create unexpected career opportunities. During the Mental Fuel® segment, I also share my own bumpy journey into writing.</p>

In this episode of the Career Relaunch ® podcast, Luke Parker, a British Army Officer turned Google Cloud delivery executive shares his thoughts on how professional relationships can open doors and the importance of self-marketing during career transitions. I also share my reflections on the state of modern day friendships and glimpses into.my personal story of how people I’ve crossed paths with in life have had a huge influence on my career. 💡 Key Career Insights Self-marketing matters. Proactively driving visibility for yourself and what you want to be known for can open new doors. Maintaining relationships is critical, but it takes work. You never know what a connection of yours may create for you in the future. Your nontraditional background isn’t necessarily a liability. In fact, it may be the precise reason you’re able to add unique value in environments where people have more traditional backgrounds. ✅ Share Thoughts on Friendship with Joseph 👉🏼Complete friendship survey👈🏼 📚 Relevant Resources A few friendship resources I’ve compiled. I mentioned The ABCs of Networking by Thom Singer who said that if people don’t immediately respond to you, you should not take it personally. 7 Practical Ways To Add Value To Your Professional Network – my Forbes article about giving back to your network During the Mental Fuel® segment, I ended with a quote from Robert Waldinger who wrote the The Good Life: Lessons from the World’s Longest Scientific Study on Happiness . 💪🏼Listener Challenge From today’s Mental Fuel ® segment, I’d like to challenge you to reconnect with someone in your professional or personal network with whom you’ve lost touch. Start with someone who’s been consistently energizing, helpful, supportive, or even inspiring to you. Instead of just sending a text message or email or LinkedIn message, pick up the phone and call them, send them a voice note, record a video message, or even drop a card in the mail if you really want to change things up. 📖 Episode Chapters 00:00:00 Epsiode preview 00:01:07 Introduction 00:02:23 Chat with Luke 00:04:14 Luke’s military career 00:13:03 Transitioning to the private sector 00:18:24 Networking & self-marketing 00:23:31 Life at Google 00:30:06 Antebellum Angels 00:32:44 Mental Fuel®: nurturing relationships 00:39:58 Listener Challenge: reconnect with someone 00:44:22 Wrap-up 👤 About Luke Parker Luke Parker is a Delivery Executive at Google Cloud, where he manages complex, Air-Gapped programs for strategic clients. A former British Army Officer with over 11 years of service, Luke brings a unique perspective on leadership, having transitioned from commanding Royal Engineers Explosive Ordnance Disposal and Search (EOD&S) teams to driving digital transformation in the public sector. Beyond his role at Google, Luke is a DataIQ Top 100 influencer and the Co-Founder of Ante-Bellum Angels , a network investing in early-stage defense technology. He also holds a Master’s (Msc) in Geospatial Intelligence, and is a Chartered Engineer (CEng). Connect with Luke on LinkedIn . 👍🏻 Did You Enjoy This Episode? Please Let Us Know! Review : I’d also love for you to leave a positive review and rating for the podcast on Apple Podcasts, which helps my show reach more people who want to relaunch their careers. Follow : Be sure to follow the Career Relaunch ® podcast on Apple Podcasts , Spotify , Amazon Music , or Android so you can automatically get each new episode on your device. Full instructions . Stay in touch : Follow the Career Relaunc h® podcast on Facebook and LinkedIn . You can also follow host Joseph on LinkedIn , Instagram, YouTube , Facebook , Threads , and Bluesky . 💬 Comments, Suggestions, or Questions? If you have any lingering thoughts, questions, or topics you would like covered on future episodes, record a voicemail for me right here. I LOVE hearing from listeners! Leave Joseph a Voicemail You can also leave a comment below. Thanks! 🙏🏻 Thanks to Wise for Supporting the Career Relaunch ® podcast Wise is the world’s most international bank account. It lets you hold and convert multiple currencies all in one place, offering a smarter, easier way to move money internationally without the typical bank fees or foreign exchange commissions. I’ve used it for years myself to handle many of my own international transactions. Try Wise for free at CareerRelalunch.net/wise . 📄 Episode Transcript [00:00:00] Luke: If you expect something to happen straight away, then you’re thinking in a transactional networking mindset, which is not a healthy mindset. Networking is a long game. And so the earlier you can connect with someone and the more that you can keep that engagement going, the better. [00:00:16] Joseph: Welcome to the Career Relaunch® podcast, where my mission is to inspire you to pursue more meaningful work. My name is Joseph Liu, and I’m here to help you gain the clarity, confidence, and courage to overcome the challenges of reinventing your career so you can truly enjoy your professional life. In each episode, I feature people who have stepped off the beaten path to reinvent their careers. We talk through their unique personal journeys, the challenges they overcame and the lessons they learned along the way. To help you understand what it takes to relaunch your own career. Today, my guest is going to share his story of going from serving in the British Army to working at Google Cloud. We’ll discuss how professional relationships can open doors in your career and the importance of self-marketing during professional transitions. Afterwards, during today’s mental fuel. I’ll share my thoughts on maintaining strong relationships in your career and life. Today, I’m speaking with Luke Parker, a delivery executive at Google Cloud, where he manages complex airgapped programs for strategic clients. A former British Army officer with over 11 years of experience, Luke brings a unique perspective on leadership, having transitioned from commanding Royal Engineers, explosive ordnance disposal and search teams to driving digital transformation in the public sector. [00:01:30] Joseph: Beyond his role at Google, Luke is a DataIQ top 100 influencer and the co-founder of Antebellum Angels, a network investing in early stage defense technologies. He also holds a master’s in geospatial intelligence and is a chartered engineer. Now, I first crossed paths with Luke when I heard him speak on a career change panel that followed a talk I gave at Warwick Business School, where he’s completing his executive MBA. I decided to invite him to come on to the show because I thought his comments on the panel really stood out as being very thoughtful and practical, and his perspectives of shifting from the military to the tech sector can be useful to anyone who is considering a major career pivot, but is not exactly sure how to lay the groundwork for your transition. You can get all the show notes from today’s conversation at careerrelaunch.net/110. Luke spoke with me from London. [00:02:23] Joseph: Hello, Luke, and welcome to the Career Relaunch® podcast. It’s great to have you on the show. [00:02:27] Luke: Hey, it’s great to be here. Joseph. Thank you for inviting me. [00:02:31] Joseph: Before we get into your whole career history, I’d love to start off by just finding out what you have been focused on and what’s been keeping you busy in both your professional life and also your personal life. Just to get us started. [00:02:42] Luke: My day job. I am a delivery leader at Google Cloud and that keeps you quite busy on its own. I also am finishing off my executive MBA at Warwick Business School currently. And so my thesis has been submitted in the next 4 to 5 weeks. So every spare moment I’m not working, I’m diligently typing to hit the required word count. On top of that, I’ve got a two year old. For those parents in the listenership that have a two year old, you know that that’s a full time job in itself. But I have a fantastic wife that helps there or does most of the work. [00:03:21] Joseph: Now, I should also mention that you and I first crossed paths at Warwick Business School, and I was doing a workshop on personal branding. I heard you on a career change panel that followed my workshop, and I know that you did talk a little bit at the time about what a. I guess your official title is Delivery Executive at Google Cloud. Could you just give a glimpse into exactly what that means to somebody who maybe isn’t familiar with Google Cloud, or even what a delivery executive does. [00:03:51] Luke: At Google Cloud, a delivery executive leads multifaceted teams delivering the most complex cloud transformation programs. And so although the term has executive, you are not an executive in the formal sense, but it’s a senior delivery role that brings together multiple teams for lighthouse customers. [00:04:14] Joseph: Great. Now, you haven’t always been at Google Cloud, and I would love to just go back in time a little bit. And first of all, just get a sense of where you grew up, where you’re from, maybe a little bit about your upbringing and your childhood. And then after that, we can talk about your time in the British Army. [00:04:31] Luke: I am from Rotherham in South Yorkshire, which is in the north of England. I lived there until I was about 16, so I had a very good upbringing. South Yorkshire is, I would say, quite a deprived part of the UK. The history of the area. It used to be quite an industrialised steel and mining part of the UK, which suffered a lot through mining and steelworks shutdowns. But I think I was relatively insulated from that. I went to a great school at 16. I decided that I was going to join the Army, the British Army. [00:05:08] Joseph: And how did you come to that decision, Luke? Because that’s a big decision to move into the military versus, I suppose, continuing on in your education more formally. [00:05:18] Luke: My great grandfather was a soldier in World War II, and I had his medals and his pictures. I didn’t really ever get to talk to him about his experiences. I was too young by the time he passed away, but I was always really in awe of the pictures and the medals that he had. And I started reading about World War Two, and since then, no one in my family has been part of the armed forces. However, I think we’re a family of service. My uncle and my sister are in the police force. My mum is part of the NHS and so I think service kind of runs in our family and giving back. And I saw my kind of call to arms as joining the British Army. [00:06:10] Joseph: And I understand you would eventually go to the Royal Military Academy, Sandhurst. How do you enlist in the Army? What’s that selection process like? [00:06:19] Luke: There’s multiple routes into the army. The first way you normally go to a recruitment office and you do an aptitude test, which gives you options for what you can consider. And I was lucky enough that my options enabled me to become an officer or to apply to become an officer directly. There’s two routes in as a director, as an officer, or as a soldier. I was presented with the offer to become a, what they call an army bursar at 16. If you pass the selection, they will pay you a small amount to complete your studies up until 18. So finish your A-levels and you go for a weekend and you have a bunch of tests, physical tests, running assault course leadership tests which involve problem solving. It’s all about teamwork and showing leadership potential at that young age. I finished that, I passed, I was given the recommendation that I should become an officer and go to Sandhurst for training when I was of age, which is either 18 or onwards, and I got to 18 so I finished my A-levels and then the Army reached out again and said, we’d actually like to offer you a scholarship and you can go to university and do a bachelor’s degree in a subject of your choice. And as long as you get a 2:1, you can proceed to Sandhurst. [00:07:45] Joseph: I know that you also spent a year doing what I understand is infantry training. Now, I’m not super familiar with how things work in the military or the army. I probably wouldn’t last more than a few hours in any sort of training myself in the military. Can you just give a glimpse into that world? And also the contrast between being out there, doing that sort of military training and then being back in the classroom and how you flipped back and forth between the two. [00:08:14] Luke: After I finished my degree, I went to Sandhurst. Sandhurst was established after the Second World War, and it’s a 44 week training course to regular officers and reserves and international personnel as well. It takes you from a civilian with just the potential leadership attributes into a British Army second lieutenant, which is a junior officer. Over that time, and I wasn’t in the infantry, but they use that as the training vehicle in that it takes someone down to the rawest form of leadership there is, which is commanding a small team of up to 3035 soldiers in arduous, strenuous situations where discipline and courage is paramount, is what I believe to be one of the best ways to train leaders who subsequently want to go and serve in all different parts of the army, but they all go through this same training. And so you are a soldier first and a leader first in that sense. [00:09:25] Joseph: And it sounds like in the military, which isn’t that dissimilar, although it’s a very different world, isn’t that dissimilar from any career path where you’ve got to make a decision about where you want to head. And as you just mentioned, there’s a lot of different options. How did you go about figuring out where to take yourself? I don’t know to what extent you had a choice, but it sounds like you do have some say in which direction to go, and I’d be curious to hear how you went through that thought process of eventually shifting toward engineering. [00:09:54] Luke: It’s split into three terms, and at the end of the first term, you give a bunch of choices that you would be interested in going into when you finish. And at the time, I was really interested in joining the Yorkshire Regiment, which is a infantry regiment, and the other choices were engineers, and I think it was artillery. And after the first term had completed and you spend, you know, multiple weeks out in a ditch, rained on, hungry, tired, you know, your feet hurt. I was like, you know, is this what I want to do? My internal monologue was, I don’t think you would be happy in this role for long. So I started looking. What else? My second choice was the Royal Engineers. I’ve always been a very hands on practical person, and the Royal Engineers have such a breadth of different specialties that you can go into, whether that’s armoured engineering. So tractors and diggers and bridge layers all the way to being airborne or commando or bomb disposal or a diver or light role. So there’s all sorts of different flavours of combat engineer. And I thought that that would give me a fantastic breadth of experience, which if I became disenfranchised with a part of the engineers, you could always reroll into a different part of engineering. So it offered a really flexible career for the long haul. [00:11:28] Joseph: How was that experience overall for you up until this point of being in the military? And I suppose what’s behind my question is trying to get an understanding of whether at this point you saw yourself remaining in the military as an engineer or like, at what point did you start to think that this was maybe just the beginning of something else? [00:11:50] Luke: When I first commissioned, I truly believed that I was going to be a career soldier. A career for an officer spans normally between 18 and 25 years or so, and I thought I was in it for the long haul, especially at the start, because you’ve come out of 44 weeks of hard graft. I don’t think you would last that 44 weeks if you were just in it for like, oh, I’m just here for a couple of years. [00:12:16] Joseph: What made you deviate from that path? And my understanding, when we last spoke before we started recording was that it’s actually probably the most common path to just stay in the Army. So I’d be curious, do you remember the moment that triggered you to then deviate from that path? [00:12:34] Luke: I think it was maybe, I would say, starting to get into, say, 6 to 8 years in. So my early career was great. I loved being at 101. I was a royal engineer search advisor. That person leads a team in trying to locate bombs and IEDs. I left there and I joined a training regiment and I led what’s called instructor troop. So this troop selects the instructors across the Corps, which is arguably one of the most important jobs, being an instructor in the Corps, because you’re bringing the next generation of soldiers through. I then was sent to do a master’s degree in geospatial intelligence, and I started to get a sense of a more technical route and the story that joined the two together. I started to notice when I was in EOD was finding bombs and IEDs as a pattern in space and time. And it’s the linkage between psychology and ground and capability. And that means that you can use analytics to determine where is more likely to be a bomb. I started to hone this skill in, and it started to get me interested in the wider world of analytics and data. That started to get me thinking about what might be out there. [00:14:03] Joseph: I think this happens sometimes, Luke, where you’re in a particular field and you start to get an inkling that there might be something else out there. Was there anything in particular that then convinced you that you need more proactively explore different paths, perhaps outside of the military? And I’m just going to float out. One of the things that you mentioned to me in our last conversation was that I know that you were doing a lot of personal writing when you were in the military, so I’d be curious to hear what role that played and also just how you made the choice to explore something outside of the military. [00:14:36] Luke: My thesis for my master’s was all about spatial patterns of measles outbreak in the UK, and how that was linked to social deprivation around the UK. And I finished that about six months before the first Covid cases hit the UK. And this led to a really interesting opportunity where I asked to be sent UK government to help with Covid response and analytics. That was a really tough 12 to 18 months as most people that lived through that can attest to. For so many reasons. But the work that I did there got me recognition. The analytical processes that I put in place led to me being put on an industry list, which is called the data IQ 100, which is the 100 most influential people in the UK for data and analytics. And that was the first year that someone in the military had been put on that list. But I would find interesting problems that I could solve with geospatial intelligence. And one of them was how we could increase our carbon sequestration across defense estates. We created this model, which showed that you could increase about 16% afforestation rates across most of the UK training estates. That was published in a University of Oxford study, which was fantastic. And it also was the start of me really starting to get recognised by people outside of the military. [00:16:13] Joseph: So it sounds like you managed to drive some visibility for yourself. Part of it was through being on the industry watch list. Part of it was people then starting to notice you. And just to kind of change gears here a little bit as you think now about your eventual shift into the corporate world, if there was 1 or 2 things that you feel you did that opened that door for you. What do you think those were? As you were making that transition? [00:16:40] Luke: I think the first one is self-marketing. My personal view is that people in the militar

All sorts of setbacks can come up during your career. You narrowly miss landing your dream job. You get put on a project you don’t love. You have a horrible manager. You go through a round of budget cuts. You have a family emergency come up. You have a sudden health issue. Or you realise you’ve taken the wrong job. We all experience disappointments, stressors, or unexpected twists and turns in our career that test our resilience, patience, and fortitude. Career setbacks can’t be avoided. No matter how well you plan things out, stuff comes up, and your ability to navigate and manage those setbacks will make the difference between you getting stuck in a rut or bouncing back to find a better way forward. In this episode of the Career Relaunch ® podcast, Ben Kuhl , a sports and events hospitality management professional turned woodworking, shelf-making craftsman shares his thoughts on his shift from white-collar to blue-collar work, and I also share some thoughts on the hidden blessings behind career setbacks. 💡 Key Career Insights We all experience setbacks in our careers, and your ability to accept, embrace, and manage them can make the difference between getting stuck in a rut and opening a new, more promising chapter in your career. While career disappointments are inevitable, sometimes, they’re blessings in disguise that enable you to recalibrate and relaunch yourself down a more fulfilling professional path. The past roles you’ve had, even those that felt like a poor fit, can play a critical role in your career evolution. You never know how your past experiences will show up again and assist you in your future career. 💪🏼Listener Challenge During this episode’s Mental Fuel® segment, I talked about the importance of recognising and embracing career setbacks as an opportunity to shift your career in a new direction. Consider a situation in your own career you’ve found stressful, unsettling, or disappointing. Then, think about what this experience may be telling you about what’s truly important to you at this moment in your life and career. What’s one step you could take in the new year to honor that priority and move yourself in a more promising direction? 📖 Episode Chapters 00:00:00 Overview 00:01:07 Introduction: Career Setbacks 00:03:12 Ben Kuhl’s Career Journey 00:37:08 Mental Fuel®: Blessings in Disguise 00:45:03 Listener Challenge: Identify Career Setback’s Upside 00:45:32 Wrap Up 👤 About Ben Kuhl Ben Kuhl initially built his career in sport management and hospitality, gaining experience in operations, events, and client service. After getting laid off from his most recent role in product management, he launched Shelf Expression , a Charlotte woodworking brand specializing in custom, high-end floating shelves and mantels. His background gives him a unique edge in blending business strategy with hands-on craftsmanship. Today, his shelves ship nationwide while maintaining a focus on quality and design. Learn more about Ben’s work on Facebook , LinkedIn , and Instagram , and be sure to check out Ben’s Etsy store . 👍🏻 Did You Enjoy This Episode? Please Let Us Know! Review : I’d also love for you to leave a positive review and rating for the podcast on Apple Podcasts, which helps my show reach more people who want to relaunch their careers. Follow : Be sure to follow the Career Relaunch ® podcast on Apple Podcasts , Spotify , Amazon Music , or Android so you can automatically get each new episode on your device. Full instructions . Stay in touch : Follow the Career Relaunc h® podcast on Facebook and LinkedIn . You can also follow host Joseph on LinkedIn , Instagram, YouTube , Facebook , Threads , and Bluesky . 💬 Comments, Suggestions, or Questions? If you have any lingering thoughts, questions, or topics you would like covered on future episodes, record a voicemail for me right here. I LOVE hearing from listeners! Leave Joseph a Voicemail You can also leave a comment below. Thanks! 🙏🏻 Thanks to Vista Social for Supporting Career Relaunch Vista Social is a versatile, time-saving tool to manage all your social media accounts in one place. You can easily create, schedule, optimise, and publish content directly to multiple social media profiles from one simple dashboard. I actually use it myself to manage all my online profiles. 📄 Episode Transcript [00:03:22] Joseph: Okay, well let’s just start off by getting a lay of the land. What’s happening in your current life right now? Like what’s been keeping you busy both personally and professionally? [00:03:33] Ben: I own my own business. Started a woodworking business back in the beginning of 2020, right before Covid. And ever since then, things have just absolutely exploded with work. So my woodworking business, I primarily focus on floating shelves and mantles. And yeah, things in 2020 just exploded and it’s just snowballed from there. So my life right now is woodworking out of my little two car garage and my family. So my wife, I have two kids, a nine year old and seven year old. So trying to figure out the balance between working from home, you know, on nights and weekends and also trying to be there for my kids is primarily what takes up most of my life at the moment. So maybe in a half hour for scrolling on Instagram before bed. But mainly those things. [00:04:17] Joseph: It’s interesting when you’re running your own business. It’s kind of a balance between running your business, making sure you’re still spending time with your kids, making sure you have time to actually rest here and there, and also just have some downtime to just mentally check out a little bit, because I know it can be all consuming to run your own business. Can I hear a little bit more about the types of woodworking that you do at Shelf Expression, which is the name of your business? [00:04:43] Ben: I started the business back, like I said, end of 2019, beginning of 2020, just making generic floating shelves to help pay for childcare, any additional unforeseen bills that came up and posted those on Etsy and they really took off. Then March of 2020 lockdown happened. Everybody was at home. They were redecorating their homes. They were trying to figure out how to bring a little bit more life into their office or their home offices. When everybody was at home in lockdown and things exploded. So right now I focus 95% on making floating shelves. It’s almost don’t really like to say that I’m a woodworker, because it’s one of the most, I wouldn’t say boring aspects of woodworking, but it’s shelf making. So I love being able to get creative and try to figure out different ways that I can keep my mind fresh on making the shelves as I go along. But yeah, 95% of my woodworking is making high end floating shelves and then also fireplace mantels, so hopefully continue to grow. [00:05:45] Joseph: Well, I do want to come back to your time now as a shelf. I’m just going to call it a shelf craftsman. [00:05:51] Ben: There you go. [00:05:52] Joseph: Perfect. Yeah, I actually have some questions about shelves for you, which we can come back to later. But exactly. I do want to go back to your time before working in this space. And you used to work as an event manager and eventually as a director of product management for Sports Hospitality Company. But before we get to that, I’d love to hear a little bit more about you and just where you grew up. And I guess specifically, what do you remember being interested in during your childhood days? [00:06:23] Ben: So I grew up in north central Ohio, right on Lake Erie, about 45 minutes west of Cleveland on a farm. So my childhood was always helping my dad out on the farm. When I was younger, as I got a little bit older it was more sports. So being involved in basketball and football and baseball, as I did through middle school and high school in the summers, waking up at five in the morning and picking sweet corn and being covered in pollen and always having that little bit of a blue collar mentality behind, you know, seeing my dad come home at 8:00 at night and being out for 14 to 16 hours drove home with me. The how important work ethic is to being successful and being a, you know, a son of a farmer really taught me that. You know, unfortunately, a lot of times, no matter how hard you work, you often aren’t as successful as you could be, especially in farming, because there are so many variables that play into being successful, like weather and markets and soil conditions, and seeing him work his tail off and being upset that it hadn’t rained in a month. Or maybe it’s rained five inches over the last two days, and knowing that your yield was going to suffer because of that really made me start to think about, you know, maybe carrying on the family farm isn’t something that I had as much interest in as I did when I was a kid. So that’s when once I started transitioning to being more involved in sports in the city I grew up in, started thinking about more about going off to college and getting a degree and getting out of north central Ohio. You know, my parents are so prevalent through my upbringing and the instilling of work your tail off and hopefully good things will happen. At least it’ll set you up to have a positive outcome for the rest of your life if you work hard. [00:08:24] Joseph: As you may recall, when we first chatted, I actually grew up in Ohio, also myself. I spent about age 2 to 6 in Hamilton, Ohio. I grew up in a very not fully rural, but it certainly wasn’t in an urban area like you mentioned. Very blue collar, very kind of ordinary. I would say life, but it does instill you with a lot of good values and good work ethic. Now you would eventually go on to Ohio University and you ended up studying sports and Fitness Administration. You did mention that there was, at least I guess, a potential consideration of continuing with the family farm business. Was that a very straightforward decision for you, or was that something you had to kind of wrestle with? I’d be curious how you ended up going into that. [00:09:09] Ben: It wasn’t necessarily something where my parents came to me and said, you know, if you want to continue on the family farm, it’s yours. I was the only male in my family tree that it kind of was implied that it would be mine if I wanted it. I would say probably around middle school I started to lose interest in continuing, and I think I’ve always had a sense of wanting to get out and see what else is out there in the world. As I transitioned to being more involved athletically, I was helping out less and less around the farm. So it wasn’t a hey, Ben, do you have any interest this in this or not? It was more of an unsaid. Okay, we understand that farming isn’t for you. So that’s kind of how the progression went. [00:09:49] Joseph: Well, let’s talk now about your time working in event management? I understand you started off as an event coordinator, eventually became an event manager. Tell us a little bit about this chapter of your career and what you were focused on. [00:10:02] Ben: Graduating from OU or Ohio University with a sports management degree. All I wanted to do was work for a professional sports franchise. So after graduating from college, moved out to Seattle to work for the Seattle SuperSonics. It was an amazing experience being on the ground floor. We were charged with basically being telemarketers, trying to call anybody who had expressed interest within the last five years in Seattle supersonic tickets, trying to get them to upgrade to a season ticket package. That part wasn’t the most. It wasn’t the best perk of the job. So also, working game nights really gave me an idea into what it could be working in event management, being on the floor when the players are coming out. Being close to the locker room, that was what really excited me, and sales was never Really a driving factor for me to want to work in sport management. Unfortunately, to get your foot in the door in sport management, you usually have to start as a some type of sales position, whether it’s inside sales or group sales. So after being there for a few years, the Sonics moved to Oklahoma City and then worked for a car sharing company, Zipcar, which I believe. I think they’re still around. [00:11:13] Ben: Yeah. As a marketing coordinator in the Seattle branch, and my main task was planning events in conjunction with the marketing manager in Seattle. And that kind of really got me into the event management mindset. Really loved starting with a blank sheet of paper, six months or even a year out and whiteboarding exactly what we wanted the event to look like, what our goals were for the event, and kind of forming the event around our goals and trying to figure out how we were going to meet those goals. So Zipcar, I would say my love for event management really started there. And then from there we decided that we wanted to do something where we felt like we were giving back to the community, and we decided that we were going to quit our jobs as a professional and move to Thailand and teach English. [00:12:01] Joseph: What year was this, Ben? [00:12:02] Ben: 2010 2011. [00:12:04] Joseph: Okay. [00:12:05] Ben: So we moved back to Pittsburgh, where my wife was from, to save up some money. I continued my job with Zipcar in the Pittsburgh market as an event manager, and we moved overseas and we taught English in Thailand for seven months in travel. Yeah, it was a very 180 on our career path. Our family and friends were telling us that it was career suicide, that, you know, people were going to look down on the gap in our resumes when we came back. But we would never change that in a million years. What happened before I left for Thailand? I helped out a friend working the masters with an event company that he works for, and I hit it off with the event manager prior to leaving. And on the way back. And this is in Charlotte now, on the way back from Thailand, I reached out to her and asked her if there was, you know, by chance, any roles that were available to come and continued my path in sport and event hospitality and event management. And there is a role that was available to me. And I came and we moved from Thailand back to Charlotte, and I started in event hospitality. [00:13:13] Joseph: I understand part of this is about selling tickets, getting people to events, but when you talk about the hospitality side of it, what exactly did that entail? [00:13:21] Ben: So a leagues and venues will have a certain percentage of tickets that they’ll sell a la carte to anybody who has access to them, and then they’ll set aside a certain amount of tickets where they will couple on site hospitality with those tickets, so that on site hospitality would be a tent or a VIP room, that the people who purchased these hospitality tickets will have access to. And we’ll go ahead and we’ll couple other exclusive offerings like player meet and greets. High end food and beverage. Backstage passes, behind the scenes tours with those hospitality packages. And those will be sold obviously as a premium above what the ticket prices were sold at and the venue or the organizing body that we were partnering with, we would get a percentage of those sales. So it was just a way for them to another revenue driver for that business. [00:14:12] Joseph: And how are you finding that experience so far? Like what was running through your head at this point in your career, having come back from Thailand, now you’re working in event management and hospitality management. Did you enjoy it? Were you finding it rewarding? Like what was your level of satisfaction? [00:14:29] Ben: This was a little bit of a foreshadowing to what I do now, but the work leading up to the events was always tough. I’m not going to sugarcoat it. Long hours being away from home. Very stressful because you have people, understandably so. You have people that are spending thousands and thousands of dollars on these packages. And if something doesn’t go right with that, you are the person that hears about it. You are the person who has to try to figure out how to put out the fire. So there was a lot of stress involved with it. But once you got to the event and everything was running smoothly, and you looked around and you saw all these people with the biggest smiles on their faces and having an amazing time. The finished product always made the work leading up to it worth it. I see that a lot now as a parallel to what I do now. There’s a lot of work with the shelves that I do the way a lot. You know? My hands are constantly covered in splinters and wood stain. But getting the pictures and the reviews, once my customers have them installed on their on their walls and the glowing positive things that they have to say about it makes it worthwhile to just knowing that I had a part in bringing a little bit extra something into their home. So. Same with event management. Leading up to extremely stressful, very high paced environment because we were 20, 30, 40 events a year. So you’re planning for one, you’re executing another, you’re starting the planning process and another all at the same time. But when you’re there, it was an amazing feeling, very formative, I would say. [00:15:58] Joseph: I’d love to shift gears here a little bit, Ben, and talk about your shift away from that world into the world of, do I have this correct? Dental conferences and trade shows, which seems very different. Like how did you how did you make that pivot and what triggered you to make that pivot? [00:16:12] Ben: I was just ready to move on at that point. I was with the previous company for three years. I think it was the non-stop nature of the events and maybe a little bit of the high stakes nature of the customer interactions burnt me out very quickly. You go into 15, 20 events, it was something that I needed to change the pace from. I had lots of great memories those first three years. I was able to go to some amazing, amazing sport events like the Super Bowl and the Masters and the Kentucky Derby that I would never be able to go to otherwise, and It was very thankful for those first three years. I just needed something else. And you know what better place to pivot from sports than into dentistry? A lot of parallels between the two. Right. So exactly. I wanted to take my event management experience and then parlay that and continue down the event management path. And there’s just an opportunity available with a dental products manufacturer. And I saw it and applied for the job and I got it. And so when we started, they had us a celebration of the 30th year of this dental product, this machine that they produced. And I mean, anybody who’s in dentistry knows what the product is, knows the company name. They’re the forefront of dental manufacturing in the world. And I had the opportunity to come in and work with the events and marketing team to help plan the 30th anniversary of this product. [00:17:41] Joseph: Sounds like this is going well. A lot of transferable skills into this very different industry. I know that you would be there for a couple of years before you then returned back to your old former company, and you would go back as the director of product management. And I would be really interested to hear what prompted you to return to that world of sports, having stepped out of it. You mentioned before that you felt like it was time to do something different. This is an example of what we call sometimes a boomerang employee, where you leave a company or a sector and then you, you voluntarily choose to go back to it. [00:18:14] Ben: So I received a call from the president at that point in time, asking if I’d be interested in exploring any type of option of coming back. And we talked about it for a little while. My wife and I, we had my daughter at this point in time. We understood that travel would pick back up again going back to this company and the s

These days, there’s no shortage of distractions out there with endless amounts of content that’s just a tap away on your phone. As much as social platforms like LinkedIn are really handy for sharing and receiving professional updates, they’re also places that provide endless points of unnecessary, unproductive comparison. Not allowing external voices to sway you too much in your career is half the battle in finding work that’s right for you. In this episode of the Career Relaunch ® podcast, electrical engineer turned artist Sangeetha Gopalakrishnan has had to find ways to quiet the influences around her so she can focus on pursuing a career that makes her truly happy. In our conversation, we’ll discuss paying attention to what your body’s telling you, following your intuition, and finding space to reflect. In the Mental Fuel® segment, I’ll discuss how I quiet career distractions. 💡 Key Career Insights Especially when you’re young, you may pride yourself on being able to hustle and power through challenging times in your career. However, your body has a way of telling you when you’re pushing yourself too much. Pay attention to these signs of burnout and overexertion before a bigger problem arises. Building a financial cushion provides you with the freedom to make a risky career move, so if you can put in the time, energy, and discipline into building this cushion, it enables you to move more confidently into the next stage of your career. Don’t be too consumed with what other people think about how your career should look. 💪🏼Listener Challenge During this episode’s Mental Fuel segment, I talked about the importance of finding one way to have a quiet moment when you can be still and sort out your thoughts. I know life gets busy, and I know this isn’t easy to do, but you might be surprised by what clarity you might gain from the momentary pause. 📖 Episode Chapters 00:00:00 – Overview 00:01:07 – Introduction 00:03:47 – Chat with Sangeetha 00:48:11 – Mental Fuel® 00:54:01 – Listener Challenge 00:54:40 – Wrap Up 👤 About Sangeetha Gopalakrishnan Sangeetha Gopalakrishnan has had to find ways to quiet the influences around her so she can focus on pursuing a career that makes her truly happy. She spent nearly two decades as an electrical engineer in semiconductor chip design before deciding to make a big change. After growing up in India, she moved to the U.S. for graduate school in electrical engineering and built a solid career designing chips, managing teams, and leading projects. In 2024, she left her job to become a full-time outdoor oil painter, hiking into remote places to paint landscapes using sustainable, non-toxic materials. She also leads a women’s hiking group with over 1000 members in Southern California, helping others find confidence and connection in the outdoors. Her story is about choosing purpose over predictability—and having the courage to start again. Follow Sangeetha on Instagram and LinkedIn . 👍🏻 Did You Enjoy This Episode? Please Let Us Know! Review : I’d also love for you to leave a positive review and rating for the podcast on Apple Podcasts, which helps my show reach more people who want to relaunch their careers. Follow : Be sure to follow the Career Relaunch ® podcast on Apple Podcasts , Spotify , Amazon Music , or Android so you can automatically get each new episode on your device. Full instructions . Stay in touch : Follow the Career Relaunc h® podcast on Facebook and LinkedIn . You can also follow host Joseph on LinkedIn , Instagram, YouTube , Facebook , Threads , and Bluesky . 💬 Comments, Suggestions, or Questions? If you have any lingering thoughts, questions, or topics you would like covered on future episodes, record a voicemail for me right here. I LOVE hearing from listeners! Leave Joseph a Voicemail You can also leave a comment below. Thanks! Thanks to BrandYourself for Supporting Career Relaunch BrandYourself offers simple tools and services to help control what people find when they Google you. To clean up, protect, and improve how you look online, visit BrandYourself.com and use promo code ‘RELAUNCH’ to get 50% off a Premium membership. 📄 Episode Transcript [00:00:01] Joseph: Okay, Sangeetha. Well, thank you so much for getting up early over there in California to join me here on the Career Relaunch podcast. It is great to have you on the show. [00:00:10] Sangeetha: Thank you. It’s my pleasure. [00:00:11] Joseph: I would love to start by hearing a little bit about what you’re focused on right now in your career and your life, so maybe we could start with that, and then we can go back in time and talk about your pivots along the way. [00:00:23] Sangeetha: As you can see in my background, that speaks volumes about what I do now. I am an artist. I’m a fine artist. That means I do these finished oil paintings. I get inspiration from the outdoors. I usually go on my outdoor expeditions as just for recreation, and I paint outdoors, and I come back to my studio and I paint them large. People want to buy them. So I, I would call it like a business, but that’s not how I intended it to be. That’s my career now, an artist who works for myself. [00:00:57] Joseph: I know you got into this a little bit. You talked about oil painting, but like how would you describe your style of art and your focus as an artist? What do you like to paint? Do you have a certain theme around your art? [00:01:09] Sangeetha: I would call myself a plein air landscape artist. So plein air. I think it’s a French word that means outside. So the style is that you go outdoors, you paint what you see. So you’re actually capturing the emotions, the exact feelings that you get from looking at a scene, not from a photo, but an actual scene. And you paint it. And I do those on my hiking trips. I go on to these remote trails and capture them, and I usually capture them small, like small canvases, and I bring them home. And the ones that really speak to me, I paint them large. And these are done using oil paints. And there’s several ways that you can do it. People use like plenty of colors. People use certain kinds of paints. Paint, but I do all non-toxic paints in my oil painting process. I use only four colors and it’s done in an impressionistic style, so if you look at it, it’s not a photorealistic. It’s not what you see in a photo or even like exactly how you see in the landscape. But it’s an impression of what I see. So you can bring the painter’s emotions onto the canvas. So it’s a different style of paint making. [00:02:25] Joseph: That’s amazing that you’re painting with just four colors, because when I see your background, this is an audio podcast. But when I look at your background and some of your paintings there, I would just assume you’re using the whole rainbow of colors out there. So that’s very interesting. [00:02:37] Sangeetha: I love challenges, so just with four colors, as you know, with color theory, you can make the infinite spectrum of colors interesting. [00:02:45] Joseph: I know that your art business is also a California green business, so it’s certified for your use of sustainable art making the non-toxic Toxic paints. Why is it that people don’t do that? Like, why don’t more artists follow the sustainable art making process? Because to me, that sounds like a great way of doing it. [00:03:06] Sangeetha: It’s just the same reason as why people wouldn’t do sustainability in any part of their life, right? Like, you know, that’s how everyone has done. So you just go with the flow and you never question it because the masters have done it with all the chemicals. And so you think, oh, that’s the only way. That’s the way I’m supposed to do. But I’ve grown up because of where I grew up and my family values. I always was drawn to doing things in a green way, eco friendly way. So when I first started painting, I was shocked by the amount of chemicals these artists were using. I took some workshops and the teacher was like mixing up all these chemicals in this and she was saying, oh, let’s leave the windows open because these fumes are. We have to let the fumes out. I’m like, this is not making any sense. I started doing some research and doing my own experimentation, and I figured you can use less toxic paints. You can use zero chemicals in your studio or outdoors. And I started trying it and I’m like, yeah, none of my paintings need those things that everyone was using that intention of wanting to do. And most people are not aware of it. They’re not thinking about that. [00:04:20] Joseph: You haven’t always been an artist. You were once an electrical engineer in the semiconductor chip industry. But before we get to that, Sangeetha, I would really love to start by hearing more about your early years and you alluded to this. Where you grew up, where did you grow up in India and what do you remember about your childhood there? [00:04:40] Sangeetha: I grew up in South India in the state of Kerala. When I say Kerala, I’m describing it would be very different from the rest of India because Kerala is very tropical, closer to the equator and it’s very green, full of coconut trees. Humid. Very green. Lush state. We get a lot of six months of rain almost because of the monsoons. It’s called God’s own country because of people feel how blessed it is for how it looks and the abundant resources. So that’s where I grew up. Until I was 18, I lived in Kerala until I moved out to do engineering. What I remember is, yeah, my childhood. I grew up in a family which is very middle class. My parents were central government employees. They worked for the Department of Telecommunications. They were focused on giving education to their two daughters. Very blessed to have been born. My family, I was like a math science nerd. I just focused on solving math problems. Like, that was like, my thing. [00:05:43] Joseph: Was that because you liked it, or was it because you loved it. [00:05:47] Sangeetha: Came very natural and obsessed with math and physics and all that. We lived in an area which was so green and beautiful, and so we always played outdoors, even though I was drawn to books. All our playing time was outdoors. We had a huge backyard with like, all the tropical fruit trees, and we had a swimming pool built by our grandparents. We would swim there every day after school, and what I remember is being attached to the books and then go outside and play. [00:06:18] Joseph: It sounds like a really lush and wonderful childhood, one that I think a lot of kids these days would love to have. Just the freedom to be out and playing and enjoying the outdoors. What made you decide to move to the United States. [00:06:31] Sangeetha: That way of living? I grew out of that. I wanted to pursue engineering, like further studies. As I got admitted into engineering school, I had to move out of my town because the college was in a different town. So that was the first move out of the hometown. And then I got a job in the city of Bangalore as a junior engineer for Texas Instruments. That was the first company that hired me. So that was the reason I had to move out of Kerala. So I was still in India. As for my first job, but I always felt that I could do something more than just living in a small town as a kid. You’re like, oh, I want to see what the world is like. I want to see where this will take me. So I had those ambitions as just to see the world, and that’s what I say. I wouldn’t say that. Oh, I wanted to be a techie and rule the world. Nothing like that, but I was. I had that itch to be traveling and seeing the world, I would say. [00:07:37] Joseph: So in this desire to explore the world, I know you would eventually move to the United States. Where did you land and what did you then dedicate your career to. During that chapter of your life. [00:07:48] Sangeetha: I worked for two years as a junior design engineer at Texas Instruments in India. And that’s when I realized I want to do more specialization in electrical engineering. So I applied for master’s degree to the universities in the US, and I got into two of them. One was UC San Diego and one is Columbia in New York. So for better weather reasons, we decided to pick San Diego. [00:08:12] Joseph: La Jolla, nice spot. [00:08:13] Sangeetha: Yeah, I was like, oh my God, this is amazing. You can study in a college right next to the beach. And yeah, so that’s where I ended up. [00:08:20] Joseph: That’s so funny. I actually almost went to UC San Diego. I visited San Diego when I was a high school student. I loved it, I loved La Jolla, and just like you, I thought, how cool would it be? And I was living in Missouri at the time. So like the idea of living next to the beach and that being college like that just seemed so incredible to me. I ended up going to northwestern, which is a great school, but like the weather is just really tough. [00:08:43] Sangeetha: That is a great school. [00:08:45] Joseph: Yeah, it is also quite popular with aspiring engineers. Okay, so you’re in Southern California and then you would eventually move into an area that I know virtually nothing about, which is RF mixed signal IC design. Do I have that correct? Could you explain exactly what that is? Like radio frequency design and what you were working on? [00:09:06] Sangeetha: That was my specialization for my master’s degree too. So RF is radio frequency. It is the core of every wireless communication that we have today. So we need radio waves to carry the transmission of data from, let’s say a cell you call someone. It’s the radio waves that are carrying the information from one phone to the other, or from a cell phone tower to your phone, or from a Wi-Fi router to your device. So this specialization that I did was designing circuits that actually Communicate to another device through radio waves. I would call it like the most in-demand technology right now in semiconductors, because we are going wireless more and more. We’re getting rid of wires. So you you need more chips that do this. So this specialization is actually for designing circuits which are called RF circuits or RF mixed signal circuits. And that was my specialization. And just to explain what mixed signal is, everything in the core of your device is done in digital. Like there’s ones and zeros. But then as you come closer to the real world you have to make them analog. Yeah, I can keep going on and on about the details of it, but I would bore people. [00:10:27] Joseph: I think that gives us gives us a good high level overview. So mixed signal design and circuit design. Hugely important to modern day technology and communication. You were doing this for? Do I have it right? Like 15 years at Max Lanier. [00:10:44] Sangeetha: That’s right. [00:10:45] Joseph: How was that for you? How were you enjoying it? What do you remember about, like, your level of enjoyment of doing this kind of highly specialized technical work? [00:10:54] Sangeetha: I graduated right at recession in 2009, and it was really hard to find a job. But then I landed this job, luckily, and the company was still a startup, it had not gone IPO. It worked like a startup. I was the first woman engineer to be hired and they worked like 12 hours. 14. I don’t even remember how many hours everyone worked. It was a very overwhelming environment when I joined, I remember, but very challenging and also exciting for a new grad because you’re learning all these things. It’s all these engineers with PhDs and years of experience, and they’re inventing things, and they’re designing these complex things and being the only woman engineer the culture, it’s very different. Like when you’re in a new environment, suddenly you’re like, oh, you have to figure all this out and this tough environment. It was a mixed feeling because you had to work really hard to establish yourself and prove that, hey, I can make it here too. So it did take some time. So the initial years were harder. I remember like working really crazy hours. It really, really, like, took a toll on my health. But then there was that excitement of that’ll keep you working because you’re so into it and you have these joys of like, oh, I designed the circuit and it’s working and drag you into it. And you’re like, oh, I didn’t realize all these consequences of it. Yeah. So I would say the initial years were tough, but also exciting. [00:12:28] Joseph: You mentioned there the consequences of working in these intense environments. What do you mean by the consequences? [00:12:35] Sangeetha: Within a year I had really bad health problems, like I was diagnosed with herniated disc from sitting for long hours without moving. My spine had like compressed and it was like I had like a disc flipped. I mean, that’s like the most common way of saying it. And I was only 26 years old. I had sciatica, which is like the shooting pain on my leg that comes from this pinched nerve because the disc is touching it. I had not imagined that my health would deteriorate so quickly because of these long hours of working. So that, I would say, was the biggest thing I had not imagined would happen. And the scariest thing. So that caused me to take like some break from work, and I had to take like a six weeks or eight weeks disability leave from work and take a break. [00:13:28] Joseph: Your back is out of commission. You’re off work. Were you thinking, okay, once I get better, I’m going to get back into this. Maybe I’ll, I don’t know, work at a standing desk or I’m going to adjust my work style or my work habits. Were you thinking at that moment that this could still work out, or were you thinking, hey, this is something that I need to really reassess, that this long term is not going to be great for me. Like what was running through your head at the time? [00:13:52] Sangeetha: The goal was just to get back. I was flying. I was in my 20s and oh, I was like, oh, I have to get back to this as soon as possible and work harder. That was like the initial initial thing. I did get standing desk. I got like changes to the ergonomics were all taken care of. But I remember the whole time I was in bed, I couldn’t move. I had to be laying flat on the bed. The moment I get up, I, you know, it was so painful. But I remember at that age the thought was just to get back and get better and just go at it. But that was while I was in bed. But then once I started going back to work, I felt that something switched in me. I still remember the nagging thought that, is this really what I want to do? Is this what how I want to spend my, you know, the rest of my career? And I remember those thoughts coming, but then I’m like, this is what everybody’s doing. I’m no different. And I hear jokingly from other engineers that, oh yeah, once you’re in RF circuit design, back pain is your best friend. I’m like, really? Is that. Yeah. So that’s like a running joke in the company. And yeah, I had this unsettling thought that, oh my God, is this what I want to do? But I had no idea what else I would do. I’m stuck with this career where this is what I want to do, but the way it’s done is not right at all. [00:15:23] Joseph: You were enjoying the actual nature of electrical engineering work, but the structure of that work and the demands it put on your body and the work hours and the ways of working that wasn’t quite sitting well with you. I know when we first connected. One thing that you had written to me, which really struck me and I’m just going to read this is you wrote deep down, I’d known for years that I wanted to do something more meaningful and soulful than a desk job. I read that, and I was just thinking, what do you think was stopping you from making that move at that point in time? [00:15:58] Sangeetha: To answer that question, I’ll have to tell you, like, one of the things that the doctor prescribed was being active. After I had this injury, because I was not an active person at all, I was just a,

Have you ever thought about changing your work setup due to a change in your life circumstances, time constraints, or just stress? At some point in your career, you may face a moment of reckoning, when you realize you can’t continue to sustain your current career, and something has to give. But how do you choose whether to hang on to honor the investments you’ve made or let go to make room for something else? On Career Relaunch ® podcast episode 107, Matt Oliver, founder of Oliver Co, describes his career journey to go from designer to company founder and eventual design consultant for Native Design. We talk about how to pace yourself when making a transition, balancing your side projects with your day job, and the importance of outsourcing and delegating tasks if you want to open up new opportunities in you career. 💡 Key Career Insights When you’re starting something new, you don’t necessarily have to cut things off completely with your current employer. There may be a way forward that enables you to balance both your current work and future explorations. Relinquishing control of a project and getting out of the way can open up new possibilities. When you let go, delegate, or outsource, other experts can step in and run things more efficiently to enable more growth. Focusing your efforts on a single goal in your career has its benefits, but ironically, sometimes adding more onto your plate and diversifying your professional endeavors can enable you to gain a healthier perspective and balance in your life. 💪🏼Listener Challenge During this episode’s Mental Fuel segment, I talked about the importance of releasing your grip on one aspect of your work to make room for another priority. My challenge to you is to decide on one thing you want more of in your career right now. Then, identify something you could spend less time on so you can make room for that. 📖 Episode Chapters 00:00:00 Overview 00:01:07 Introduction 00:03:21 Chat with Matt 00:42:45 Mental Fuel® 00:50:02 Listener Challenge 00:50:52 Wrap Up 👤 About Matt Oliver Matt Oliver is a design strategist with a background in product design who’s had to wrestle with this question himself. Matt’s career spans both consultancy and entrepreneurship. He started out designing in-house before moving to a design consultancy, working with global brands like Zenith and TAG Heuer. He later founded Oliver Co , a sustainable accessories brand that became B Corp certified, won international awards, and partnered with Virgin Atlantic. His experience has given him a strong blend of creative thinking and commercial awareness. And today, Matt helps businesses use design as a tool for innovation and growth. Learn more about Matt Oliver and Native Design . 👍🏻 Did You Enjoy This Episode? Please Let Us Know! Review : I’d also love for you to leave a positive review and rating for the podcast on Apple Podcasts, which helps my show reach more people who want to relaunch their careers. Follow : Be sure to follow the Career Relaunch ® podcast on Apple Podcasts , Spotify , Amazon Music , or Android so you can automatically get each new episode on your device. Full instructions . Stay in touch : Follow the Career Relaunc h® podcast on Facebook and LinkedIn . You can also follow host Joseph on LinkedIn , Instagram, YouTube , Facebook , Threads , and Bluesky . 💬 Comments, Suggestions, or Questions? If you have any lingering thoughts, questions, or topics you would like covered on future episodes, record a voicemail for me right here. I LOVE hearing from listeners! Leave Joseph a Voicemail You can also leave a comment below. Thanks! 🙏🏻 Thanks to Hosting.com for Supporting the Career Relaunch ® podcast Hosting.com is the web host provider I use and trust for my websites, and they even offer 100% carbon neutral green hosting. For an easy, fast, and affordable way to get your website online today, visit careerrelaunch.net/hosting to host your website for as little as a couple of bucks a month. 📄 Episode Transcript Introduction and Guest Welcome From Boats to Watches Early Interest in Design Discovering Sustainability Launching Oliver Co Balancing a Business and a Job Going Full-Time with Oliver Co Returning to Full-Time Employment Lessons and Advice Introduction and Guest Welcome [00:03:22] Okay, Matt. Well, thank you so much for taking time out of your busy day to join me here on the Career Relaunch Podcast. It is great to have you on the show. [00:03:30] Matt: Great to be here. Thank you very much for having me. [00:03:32] Joseph: All right. So we’re going to talk about a lot of different things today. The steps you took to launch all of your Co, some of the challenges you’ve faced along the way, and also why you’ve recently decided to return to full time employment. But before we get to all that, could you just kick us off by telling me a little bit about what you’ve been focused on in your professional and personal life lately? [00:03:54] Matt: My current role is at a company called Native Design, so we’re a design and innovation consultancy doing physical industrial design and engineering. So the physical design of products and also digital design as well. So that’s things like user experience and user interface software development. My title is Design Strategy Manager. So really what I’m doing is I’m connecting potential clients with the different disciplines here at Native. So kind of understanding their challenges and then connecting them with the different capabilities that we have here to try and solve those challenges. So that’s what I’m doing on my on my day to day here. So a lot of outreach I guess quite similar to a business development role, a lot of outreach networking, a lot of going to events. Very interesting because I’m working across various different sectors. So one minute I could be in the life science sector. So we do a lot in genome sequencing and that kind of thing. And then the next minute I’ll be an automotive conference. So very different worlds in my personal life. Much more stable in that I’ve moved out of London, moved to a place called Guildford, which is about an hour west of London. Bought a house, got a dog, married a kid on the way, like, okay. Yeah. So that’s in November. Lots going on. Very interesting time. Early Interest in Design [00:05:19] Joseph: Sounds like you’ve got a lot going on personally. And things are going to change radically for you later this year. And so I do want to talk about your career in design, and I’d say that you’re probably a less typical guest than the ones we typically have on the show, because a lot of times we’ve got people here, Matt, who have kind of shifted out of one industry into another industry. I mean, in your case, you’ve spent, I guess, a good chunk of your career in some regard, always involved with design. Now, I know you haven’t always been at Native Design. I was hoping we could start by going all the way back in time. And first of all, just revisiting how you got interested in design in the first place at the very start of your career. And then we can move forward from there. [00:06:08] Matt: In primary school. Genuinely. Wow. There was a project, probably. I think I must have been about nine. And it was to design the front of the cereal packet. I was the kid that would always read the cereal packets in the morning. I just was fascinated by the design and what was going on with those. I guess I wouldn’t have known. I was fascinated with the design. I was just intrigued with all the characters. And so when this project came along and I loved it, and I got really involved with it, and I remember showing my parents and my dad said, oh, you should be a graphic designer. And he said, oh, our family, friends, he’s in graphic design. You should speak to him. But, you know, I was only nine and I saw the work that that he was doing. And I found I found that really interesting even at that age. And so from that point on, I kind of had it in my head. I was like, well, I’m going to be a designer. And really, I didn’t deviate at all. All the way through secondary school. I did design technology. Absolutely loved it. Yeah, all the way through to the sixth form where they’re not deciding what career wants to go into. I guess I slightly deviated in that my school was pushing me more towards the, I guess, a more academic job. So they wanted it ended up being naval architecture actually was what they suggested I did. I was doing physics and maths and they said, oh, you should be doing that. I think they were not pushing us towards design and creative industries as a school, which is a shame really, but they were quite academic focused, kind of just before we were starting to look at universities, I was like, no, I don’t want to do that. I want to go into design. I then studied product design at Loughborough, which is kind of a blend of industrial design with the more kind of engineering side, and that’s how I got into it. [00:07:53] Joseph: This might sound like a strange question, Matt, but it sounds like you were always really interested in design. Did you feel like you were good at design? Like, did you feel like you had some potential to be a good designer, or was that not really part of the thought process, or did that not feed into your decision to continue to pursue it. [00:08:13] Matt: Within my school? It’s quite a small school. I felt like I was top of the class for design. Then obviously then when you go to university, it’s a bit of a wake up call as to whether or not I am a good designer or not. There were some incredibly talented designers there, and I think I probably went into the university more confident. I think probably from the fact that I knew from a very young age I wanted to do it, and I thought I’d be more ahead than I was. And you learned what real design was, and I was good at sketching and the sort of artistic side of it. But actually what design is, you know, the more kind of problem-solving side of it. I perhaps wasn’t as strong. I guess I was always confident until I got to university, then realized, okay, I’m not quite as good as I thought I was. [00:08:59] Joseph: I think that happens to all of us. It’s sort of like you go from a big fish in a small pond, and then you realize the world is a very, very large ocean. It’s quite a humbling experience to go to college or university, and you start to see all the talent out there. So what was your first role in design and how did you get involved professionally in the world of design? I recall that your dad was a business owner. Did that have any influence on the direction you took? [00:09:26] Matt: Yes. So I didn’t go down the naval architecture route, but the reason naval architecture was on the agenda at the time when I was looking at universities was that my family are from that world. So my dad did interior fit outs of cruise ships. That was his business. Born in Southampton, very naval, part of the world, growing Grown up around ships and boats, and I thought I was going to be heading into. And even as a designer, I thought maybe I could go into exterior boat design. Not quite the extent of a naval architect, but exterior boat design. And so even at university, I was thinking that somewhere I could go. I worked at a company called Sunseeker during my placement year, and in a way, I realised then that maybe it wasn’t the world I wanted to get into and actually more kind of product design as we know it. More sort of consumer products was perhaps more suitable to where my skill sets were. And actually it was a recruiter that told me that. And that kind of led me to my first job, which was in watch design. From Boats to Watches [00:10:32] Joseph: I know you would go to Larsen Jennings, which is a well known watch brand, and I would be interested to hear how you made that pivot from focusing on, I guess, boat design at Sunseeker to then working for a watch brand, because this is something that comes up with a lot of people, is I like what I’m doing. I might be in the wrong industry. I want to switch industries. So I’d be curious how you made that pivot. [00:10:54] Matt: I guess it didn’t feel like much of a pivot in that everything we learned at university was much better suited to Lance and Jennings than the work that they were doing. The course and what I studied for four years wasn’t actually really that suited to boat design at all. It made a lot more sense. At least in Jennings, it was a lot easier. I probably had I gone into boat design, I probably would have struggled, to be honest. [00:11:17] Joseph: So you just applied directly to the company and landed the role? [00:11:21] Matt: It wasn’t directed through the recruiter. I loved watches, I loved Larson Jennings watches, but I didn’t think I could design them. I thought that was a different world altogether, and I hadn’t realized that actually, a lot of what I’d learned at university was very applicable. So all happened quite fast, actually, and got the job and they were taking a bit of a risk. They kind of saw me as an opportunity to nurture into a watch designer and actually sent me out to Hong Kong within my first two weeks of being in the company to basically learn what they were doing and then be able to apply that. [00:11:54] Joseph: That sounds really cool to me to be able to be working for a watch. I love watches myself, and I think that sounds like a dream job in many ways to me. How did that go for you? Were you thinking, okay, I’m set. I’m going to focus on watch design. This is aligned with what I studied in university. I’m heading down the correct road. Were you seeing that this was going to be the path you were going to be on for a while? At that moment in time, if you can kind of remember back to that moment. [00:12:20] Matt: When I joined them, they were still very much a startup, but an exciting startup. It was growing fast. Lots of young people in their vibrant office in London. Young founder yeah, just had this feeling that we were going to take over the world. That’s actually what we said. We’re going to take over the world one watch at a time. And I actually loved the whole machine of what we’re doing, the content social, the marketing, the operations, like, the whole thing fascinated me, and and I was exposed to all of it as well. I was connected to all those teams. And so I was doing just the design. But actually I found I was getting very interested in all the other cogs, seeing the founder, who was this young guy, I was quite inspired, probably inspired by my dad as well, thinking, well, I could be a business owner, I could do this. You know how exciting to have a group of people like this that you know, to build something and put it out there in the world. And the founder, Andy, was getting featured in GQ, and it just the whole thing was just a great buzz. I became more interested in the business, I guess I was doing design day to day, but also doing a lot of more kind of product, managing the managing factories. So actually not doing that much design towards as I got more established, the watch market was growing. It was really this was before the Apple Watch or the Apple Watch maybe had just come out. But we kind of were thinking, this isn’t going to disrupt things. This is fine. This is for a specific tech audience. But the way that it then disrupted the industry within the next two years, I realized this probably isn’t an industry with much longevity, and therefore I probably don’t want to be staying in it for too long. Discovering Sustainability [00:14:08] Joseph: So what triggered you to start to think about beginning and starting your own brand and business? I know that you started to kind of notice that this could maybe be part of your own lexicon and part of your own ethos to be a business owner, especially because your father was one. But was there a particular event or moment where you started to think, okay, no, this is something I really want to pursue. [00:14:33] Matt: So firstly, my interest in sustainability started all the way back when I was on my placement year at Sunseeker. But I saw how boats were built and the huge amount of waste. I mean, it is staggering the amount of waste that goes into it. And I think that sparks an interest in sustainability. And then I started to try and push a more sustainable agenda at last. And jenning’s in the materials that we were using, we had a lot of stock at the time, and they weren’t willing to transition to new materials just because the business wasn’t in the position to do it. So there was this kind of moment of, of a few things coming at once, this kind of passion for sustainability, these new materials that were coming on the market. The excitement that I was getting for them. So these were low impact leather alternatives made from from fruit waste. They take the fruit waste from industries like the apple industry, where they create the fruit juice and the compote, and they take the waste and they turn it into essentially a leather alternative. And I was so excited about this, and I wanted to bring it into Glass and Jennings. And initially they were like, yeah, as I said, they got lots of stock. Can’t do it. And I think seeing the young founder being inspired by that. It was kind of those combination things where I found this material. I think I can do it myself because I can see it here. I’m excited by that. [00:15:52] Matt: I’m going to do it myself. I’m going to do it. I think I can do it. I know about all the different areas. I know how to set up a website. Now I know what platform they’re using. I know how to do the marketing because I see them doing it every day. Maybe I can do this. And I also knew, because we started to get into small leather goods as a company. And so I started to understand things like the minimum order quantities that they had, and they were quite low. So I also was thinking, this won’t be too expensive to get into this. It won’t be like an upfront cost. So I also thought if I’m going to start a business, this is quite a good one because yeah, it’s not a massive investment that I have to put forward. So it could be just a side hobby actually initially, but realized I had to speak to the owner of the company to greenlight it, which I did, and actually he was very excited by it and said, no, this is going to be really beneficial for you. Probably beneficial for this company as well for you to kind of see the, you know, all the different things that go into starting a business. You should do it. I just started it very, very small to begin with. It was card holders I’d made first made 30 of them. Yeah. Sold those to family and friends and started Instagram and really just built it from there. Launching Oliver Co [00:17:02] Joseph: You’re making this shift now into entrepreneurship at this point, and you start with a few cardholders. What sort of product line were you thinking you were going to be focused on? At this point, it sounds like you didn’t pursue like watch straps. At that moment, you decided to go down card holders. How did you land on card holders, and how did that end up expanding into what we now know? As Oliver Co. [00:17:25] Matt: Couldn’t go into watch straps because that was a conflict of interest a bit too far. We had just done a project with small leather goods looking at wallets, card holders. Actually, it was more female orientated for Larsson & Jennings. I felt safe designing those because I knew what I was doing. I knew I could create the technical drawings for that myself, and I didn’t have any exposure to any other products. So the other reason was I felt like carry goods more broadly. People were always going to need to carry stuff. No matter what happens with technology, people still need to carry stuff. So I also thought there was longevity in the business. The ethos of the company, the ethos of the company was to be the forefront of material innovat

What does it mean to live your best life? Is it achieving professional success? Financial freedom? Being physically fit? Having a loving family? Pursuing a clear purpose? All of the above? In episode 106 of the Career Relaunch ® podcast, Sadaf Raza , a former investment banker turned brand marketer turned founder of Leadearly , a business school admissions consultancy. Sadaf provides unique perspectives on changing industries and shifting from full-time employment to running your own business. We discuss how to avoid the trap of doing what you feel you should do in your career so you can focus your efforts on what you want to do to honor your own values and priorities. She also shares a few helpful perspectives on how attending business school can enable your career pivot. 💡 Key Career Insights Speaking to people doing things you’re doing is an effective way to make a major transition rather than trying to do it all on your own. Taking small actions can give you much more clarity than analysis alone. You have to act in order for the path to emerge. You have to define your own measures of success so you can feel good about your own choices and live a life that makes you happy. 💪🏼Listener Challenge During this episode’s Mental Fuel® segment, I challenged you to identify the top pillars you’ve been dedicating your energies to in your life and career recently. Name them. Then, look honestly at what you’ve been prioritizing and consider whether you’ve been investing your energies into the right pillars that bring you joy. Avoid fixating on achieving the standard, societal definition of success. Dedicate your energy and resources to what makes you happy, not what you feel should make you happy. 📖 Episode Chapters 00:00:00 Overview 00:01:07 Introduction 00:03:16 Chat with Sadaf 00:46:53 Mental Fuel 00:55:06 Listener Challenge 00:55:47 Wrap Up 👤 About Sadaf Raza Sadaf Raza is the founder of Leadearly , a leading admissions consultancy for Master’s, MBA, and Executive MBA programmes in the UK & Europe. Sadaf prides herself in being able to quickly identify and articulate an individual’s unique strengths, leveraging the industry expertise she’s gained herself through multiple career pivots to help candidates shape their business school applications. She’s worked as an Investment Banker at Bank of America, Brand Manager at Procter & Gamble, and Franchise Manager for EMEA at Johnson & Johnson, before starting her first entrepreneurial venture in retail. She has an MBA from INSEAD and is passionate about using her 20+ years of experience to help others accelerate in their careers. 👍🏻 Did You Enjoy This Episode? Please Let Us Know! Review : I’d also love for you to leave a positive review and rating for the podcast on Apple Podcasts, which helps my show reach more people who want to relaunch their careers. Follow : Be sure to follow the Career Relaunch ® podcast on Apple Podcasts , Spotify , Amazon Music , or Android so you can automatically get each new episode on your device. Full instructions . Stay in touch : Follow the Career Relaunc h® podcast on Facebook and LinkedIn . You can also follow host Joseph on LinkedIn , Instagram, YouTube , Facebook , and Bluesky . 💬 Comments, Suggestions, or Questions? If you have any lingering thoughts, questions, or topics you would like covered on future episodes, record a voicemail for me right here. I LOVE hearing from listeners! Leave Joseph a Voicemail You can also leave a comment below. Thanks! 🙏🏻 Thanks to Wise for Supporting the Career Relaunch ® podcast Wise is the world’s most international bank account. It lets you hold and convert multiple currencies all in one place, offering a smarter, easier way to move money internationally without the typical bank fees or foreign exchange commissions. I’ve used it for years myself to handle many of my own international transactions. Try Wise for free at CareerRelalunch.net/wise . 📄 Episode Transcript [00:03:24] Joseph: Well, I know you’ve got a lot going on right now and there’s so much we want to cover today. I would love to start by just getting a sense of what you have been focused on professionally right now in your life, and then we can talk about anything going on for you personally in a moment. [00:03:38] Sadaf: So I’m an admissions consultant. I work with Masters, MBA and MBA applicants in the UK, Europe and beyond, and it’s just come to the end of the busiest admissions season. So it’s been full on and at the moment we’re doing lots of interviews I interview on behalf of Insead Business School, and so I really enjoy helping people prepare for their interviews, whether it’s for admission or for a job or a promotion that they’re working on. And I think as we come into the summer, there will be a lot more of that to come. So it’s been fun. I love what I do, so it doesn’t feel so much like work, but it’s been busy. [00:04:15] Joseph: I guess you’re familiar with lots of different business school programs. You work with lots of different business school applicants. Are you working with any particular type of cohort? Are these the people who want to do an MBA or an executive MBA or both? [00:04:29] Sadaf: I think because I myself am an alumni from Insead Business school, I tend to get a lot of Insead focused applicants, but most people are applying to multiple places. I also get a lot of master’s applicants for like specific subjects like economics or finance or management or marketing. So it’s a mix, and I think that makes it interesting for me also. [00:04:51] Joseph: What about personally anything keeping you especially busy recently in your your life outside of work? [00:04:57] Sadaf: I have a two boys that keep me exceptionally busy. Not in this season, but in all seasons. [00:05:04] Joseph: How old are your boys? [00:05:06] Sadaf: They are turning four this weekend and ten next month. [00:05:10] Joseph: Oh, wow. Okay. So, I guess very different types of challenges with those ages and different things that they’re doing. Well, I know that you haven’t always worked in this space as a business school admissions consultant. I do want to talk about your time working in a range of industries, including banking, marketing, and eventually talk a little bit more about lead early. I would love to go back in time a little bit. And first of all, talk about where you’re originally from. I know you’re based in the UK now. Where did you grow up, and can you tell me a little bit about that environment? [00:05:42] Sadaf: I grew up in Lahore in Pakistan, so very different environment. I’m one of four girls. I went to an all girls school. I was the first one in my family to go abroad to study. My parents didn’t know at the time that I applied, and it was just something that I really wanted to do. And then after that, all my female cousins sort of came there much more naturally. But yes, I was seeking new adventures and and opportunities, and I guess that’s what drove me. [00:06:13] Joseph: Now I have, as I mentioned to you before we started this recording, I have been to Lahore actually myself. Could you give people a glimpse into what life was like for you? What do you remember about your childhood growing up there? And can you paint a picture of just the overall environment, especially in the context of careers, what you thought you wanted to do when you grew up, what maybe you were told you should do when you grow up? What was that like for you over there? [00:06:40] Sadaf: I remember having sort of lots of long summers being bored. There was a lot of time with cousins. There was a lot of time with family. There was definitely girls versus boys. Things to do, you know, like a divide there. Yeah. It was a very happy, simple childhood. Let’s put it that way. [00:07:04] Joseph: How did you come to the decision to move to the UK? Because I would imagine that’s quite a leap to take, going from Pakistan all the way here to Europe. Do you remember how you started to think about wanting to move away from home? [00:07:20] Sadaf: It was just wanting opportunity. You know, I felt like a lot of things that you maybe saw on TV or, or you heard about was just not offered to you. Even things like sort of work experience while you were a student. I mean, nobody does that in Pakistan because you don’t have side jobs. It’s not safe. As a girl to do so. And I think that a lot of times I’d heard people say, girls can’t do this, right. So, for instance, I remember I used to debate in school like a lot of children now do. And I remember one of the semi-finals in the debating championships. I was from a girls school. We were up against the old boys school, a leading school, and one of the boys said, you know, girls can’t win from boys, you know, just 16 or 17 years old. And I remember being very pumped in my team and being like, yes, we’re going to do this. And then we ended up winning. You know, I won National Debater. I think that changed things for me. When you sort of somebody tells you you can’t do it and then you do. That was probably a year before this decision to apply to university. So I feel like, you know, when you do one small thing that you thought you couldn’t, that kind of gives you confidence to do the next thing. [00:08:35] Joseph: Well, let’s talk a little bit now about your time in the UK and that chapter of your career. There’s a lot to cover here. I’d love to start by talking about just your educational entry into the UK and what that transition was like for you, how that started to shape what you thought you might want to do professionally. [00:08:55] Sadaf: So when I came to London in my very first week, I thought, I’m a Londoner, I’m going to live here. This is amazing. And I signed up to every club or activity that there was at university. And then I was very focused on getting internships, because I knew that you need some experience to be able to do that. And while my degree was in computer science, the investment banks were the ones that were really hiring because you had to prove for a Pakistani student that nobody else in the country can do the job that you can do. And, you know, you’re like 17 or 18, 19. At the time, that felt like a tall ask. And so then I was kind of focused on, you know, getting all the help I could with building my CV and kind of getting help with my interview skills. And I guess this is what maybe motivates me to do what I do today, because I got a lot of help from well-meaning people along the way. And that advice paved the way for me. And and I enjoy doing that for other people. [00:09:52] Joseph: Now, you would eventually land at Bank of America as an investment banker. That is no small task to land a role like that coming out of university. Like, what do you attribute that to? Because it’s a very competitive industry. And as you mentioned, you’re coming here as a foreign student. How do you feel you were able to land a role for such a competitive role in a competitive industry? [00:10:17] Sadaf: Honestly, it was the right advice at the right time. I know I wasn’t the only one at a good university getting good grades. Everybody who was applying to these internships was I was just the person who at the time didn’t have the knowledge to pay for experts to help me, but I would speak to anybody who I thought had, you know, some advice to offer and got some very useful advice at the right time, because I think a lot of time people are willing and able, but they don’t recognize what is needed for a particular industry or a particular role. And I think that helped me then pitch myself in a very targeted way to those employers. [00:10:59] Joseph: Now, in terms of the investment banking world itself, I will say we haven’t had a tremendous number of AI bankers on the show, and I’d be interested just to get a glimpse into what that world was like for you. I know this was many years ago, but you spent three years in this industry. And I think when I think about the corporate world, I guess stereotypically AI, banking and maybe like consulting would be up there as one of the supposedly most, like cutthroat, intense competitive environments with long hours. What did you think you were getting into? And then what was the actual reality of working as an investment banker for you? [00:11:43] Sadaf: I mean, all that you hear about Workaholism is true. The culture was definitely be in before anybody else and leave after everybody else and be busy, you know, and be challenged. You want kind of explained tasks so well. It was sort of, you know, take your best attempt at doing the work and then somebody senior then you will improve it and eventually somebody will fix it and and give it forward. So it was a lot of thrown at the deep end. But at the same time it was very exciting. You know, doing the analyst training program in New York, you went and like lived in a hotel for I think it was ten weeks or something traveling and like having meetings with CEOs of companies. And you’re right there in the room with them and you’ve done some of the pitch work. So you are kind of presenting your numbers. The training was really good. I think for me, I always knew that I had a creative side, and I feel that my upbringing and the conditioning was those who could do Stem subjects did those, those who couldn’t, they would do more creative subjects. So while I was good at maths and I was good at more creative things, it was obvious I was pushed towards technical stuff because I was so lucky that I could. That’s when I realised, okay, I’m doing all this training, that’s great, but I want to do stuff that I’m very excited to do and I need that to be more creative. Structured finance was considered the most creative side of the bank, but it wasn’t quite the creativity I was looking for. And so I decided to move out of there. [00:13:14] Joseph: Now, how did you come to the decision to move into brand management? I hear you that you wanted to work in a more creative industry. Was marketing just the obvious next step for you? How did you come to that decision to move from banking into marketing? [00:13:30] Sadaf: It was not an obvious one. I didn’t know much about marketing at all, to be honest. I was confusing it with sales. You know, they were all mis matched in my brain. I didn’t know anybody who worked in marketing because then suddenly I was surrounded by everybody in finance and tech. And so that was tricky to figure out what I wanted to do. But actually, I think the admission essays for these business schools that I was applying to, because they make you write very detailed answers about specific short term, long term career strategy. And so I realized I don’t know much about this. Let me apply to something that sounds exciting. I thought Procter and Gamble was like this, you know, marketing school best in class, and I was the only one company I applied to. And I only intended to learn about brand management through the process. And then I ended up getting an offer from Insead and P&G the same weekend. But that was the whole idea of applying was to learn. And then I decided to take the plunge and do Procter and Gamble. And I was lucky enough to defer my entry to Insead, so I managed to do both, but it was a little bit of, I have an idea what I want to do, but I need to start doing it to figure it out. [00:14:43] Joseph: That’s a good weekend of news, I suppose. [00:14:46] Sadaf: Yes. [00:14:47] Joseph: And so you’ve got the option of going to business school. You have the option of going to one of the top tier consumer packaged goods companies. Was that a tricky decision for you to decide which to do first? Because I know I guess you could argue it either way, I guess. On the one hand, it’s good to get some additional experience before you get to business school, but on the other hand, I guess you could go to business school and learn the nuts and bolts of marketing before applying it. How did you think through that educational decision versus let me go further in my professional experiences? [00:15:19] Sadaf: I am the type of person who usually wants to do both, if I can. And so I realized that if I was more familiar with brand management, since I didn’t know much about it, I just had this one experience that would be more meaningful to then go to business school to use that knowledge and see where I want to go from there. And that was definitely the right decision, because when I did join Johnson and Johnson after Insead, they had a fast track leadership program and I jumped about 6 to 8 years in the marketing hierarchy because I had done the marketing and then I had come in now as a senior person. And so I didn’t know that at the time, but that worked out much better for me. And I do think before business school, most people use the business school to transition because they can’t transition without it. And so if you do have the opportunity to transition, it’s an immense learning experience to know what it is that you want to do by being in it a little bit. And so I think that was a better strategy. [00:16:19] Joseph: What was the world of brand management like for you at Procter and Gamble and J&J? Did you feel like you were able to feed that creative thirst that you had? And how was that career chapter sitting with you personally? Do you recall what that was like? [00:16:35] Sadaf: Yes, I loved it. The creativity, it felt quite natural. It was very practical. You know, you go into stores and you see your products everywhere, and I would fix it on a shelf if I saw something in boots. And it was a great learning experience. Also practically like when I did entrepreneurship later, sort of the brand marketing training was about, you know, understanding consumers, understanding your brand, understanding how to get more consumers to buy from you. And I think that was very valuable training. [00:17:09] Joseph: One other thing I think that comes up sort of, with people who make these radical industry changes is sort of a sense of, I don’t know how to put this, but a bit of tension between trying to maintain your past trajectory or to go off and make a leap, which is, I think, what you did here and pursue something that you actually genuinely feel passionate about. Was it a struggle at all for you to walk away from the banking world? And I don’t mean that as like a leading question, but given that it’s so competitive to get in, was there any part of you that felt like so many people would want this role? Maybe I should stick with this? Or was that not really an issue? [00:17:48] Sadaf: No, absolutely. People thought I was ungrateful, you know, to have this opportunity and to reject it. Like, who would do that? And to be clear, I was very grateful. I appreciated, you know, I could not have stayed in the country if I hadn’t had the job. And I learned so much. But it was when I started speaking to people, actually, I spoke to a career coach at the time. And, you know, the advice to me was, stick it out longer here. Don’t leave yet because the good part is coming. And then I realized, but when I have more experience in finance, but then I want to change, it’s going to actually be even harder because the opportunity cost is going to be even more. And I’m now going to be more of an expert in finance. So if you want to stay within the industry and pivot, maybe that more experience can be handy. But if you want to change industry, then Actually, it’s better to get out earlier because it just only gets harder the longer you stay. [00:18:48] Joseph: So you are enjoying your time at J&J. You’re loving the world of brand management and the creative outlet that it provides. I know eventually you would shift into doing some more entrepreneurial endeavors. How did that come about and how did things start for you having some entrepreneurial business on the side? [00:19:12] Sadaf: So I had two business partners on the ground in Pakistan when I started the re

Have you ever fallen out of love with your job, even one you initially enjoyed? All of our careers go through ups and downs, and sometimes, we go on much-needed detours to clarify who we are and what we want our professional experiences to be. On Career Relaunch ® podcast episode 105, Sally Chamley shares her journey of professional reinvention, going from a primary school teacher to a business school program coordinator. She shares the emotional challenges of leaving a beloved teaching career behind, the dynamics the transitioning into a new sector, and developing new skills along the way. We discuss how our work environments can have a huge impact on career satisfaction and the importance of recognizing when your job no longer aligns with your true self. During the Mental Fuel® segment, I also share practical advice about how to figure out if your job still aligns with who you are and who you want to be. 💡 Key Career Insights When you start to dislike my weekdays or if you feel unfulfilled and disconnected from yourself, it may be a sign you’re misplaced in your career. If you’re not engaged in professional activities or behaviors you feel align with who you are, at some point, you have to ask yourself how long you can continue living that way. You may feel your skills are not transferrable when transitioning into a new sector, but you will only know if this is true by trying out new things. You may be surprised how much your past experiences help you in seemingly unrelated roles. 💪🏼 Listener Challenge For this episode’s Mental Fuel® segment, I’d challenge you to take a moment to assess your current professional situation. Find a few minutes to consider how energized you feel by your work. Consider how happy you are with who you are. Decide whether you still feel like yourself. Take stock of where things stand right now. Consider whether your responses are satisfactory to you. If they are, great, you’re in good shape. But if your responses leave you feeling like you’re in the wrong place at the wrong time in your professional journey right now, consider exploring what else is out there. 📖 Episode Chapters 00:00:00 Overview 00:01:07 Introduction 00:02:44 Chat with Sally 00:38:57 Mental Fuel 00:45:29 Listener Challenge 00:46:27 Wrap Up 👤 About Sally Chamley Sally Chamley , originally from a Ohakune, New Zealand. After completing her Master’s degree at the Victoria University of Wellington, she spent six rewarding years as a primary school teacher. She eventually moved to London, inspired by the city’s opportunities and eager to expand her horizons. She initially continued teaching, but soon felt the pull to explore something else. Since 2024, she’s been working as a Programme Coordinator in the Finance suite at Imperial College Business School, where we first crossed paths. 👍🏻 Let Us Know If You Enjoyed This Episode Review : I’d also love for you to leave a positive review and rating for the podcast on Apple Podcasts, which helps my show reach more people who want to relaunch their careers. Follow : Be sure to follow the Career Relaunch ® podcast on Apple Podcasts , Spotify , Amazon Music , or Android so you can automatically get each new episode on your device. Full instructions . Stay in touch : Follow the Career Relaunc h® podcast on Facebook and LinkedIn . You can also follow host Joseph on LinkedIn , Instagram, YouTube , Facebook , and Bluesky . 💬 Comments, Suggestions, or Questions? If you have any lingering thoughts, questions, or topics you would like covered in future episodes, record a voicemail for me right here. I LOVE hearing from listeners! Leave Joseph a Voicemail You can also leave a comment below. Thanks! Thanks to Vista Social for Supporting the Career Relaunch ® podcast Vista Social is a versatile, time-saving tool to manage all your social media accounts in one place. You can easily create, schedule, optimise, and publish content directly to multiple social media profiles from one simple dashboard. I actually use it myself to manage all my online profiles. Try Vista Social out for free right now at careerrelaunch.net/vista . 📄 Episode Transcript 03:05 Sally’s Current Role at Imperial Business School 05:05 Sally’s Background and Teaching Journey 08:01 Challenges and Rewards of Teaching 21:00 Transition to the UK 21:57 Starting a Teaching Career in the UK 22:40 Challenges of Being a Supply Teacher 26:17 Career Struggles and Realizations 28:45 Transitioning Out of Teaching 33:25 Landing a New Role at Imperial 34:41 Lessons Learned and Advice 38:53 Mental Fuel: Recognizing Who You Are [00:02:53] Sally: Morning. Thank you so much for having me. [00:02:56] Joseph: Well, let’s just start by talking about what’s happening in your world right now. What have you been focused on recently in your work and your life? Sally’s Current Role at Imperial Business School [00:03:05] Sally: So I’m currently working at Imperial Business School in the finance suite. I’m a program coordinator for the risk. management and financial engineering master’s program. So I have 170 students and I’m essentially the logistical expert for that master’s program. I look after those students and guide them through their degrees. I liaise with the module leaders and the teaching assistants and just make sure that all the classes are running smoothly, that students have guidance on their careers and that they’re getting their grades and their assignments all running smoothly. [00:03:40] Joseph: I guess we should say that we’re recording this toward the end of 2024 and so you’ve been in your role for a few months. How have things been going for you in terms of just your day-to-day life? How are you enjoying the role? [00:03:55] Sally: Yeah, really enjoying it. Imperial is such a great place to be working. I’m just constantly surrounded by real critical thinkers who are just developing their fields. It’s a really fast paced job with different times of the year creating different types of work and learning. We welcomed our new cohort of students in September. So that was full of first week of uni and different welcome days and team-building activities. So it’s been really special to bring on a new group of students. They’re currently in the autumn term and starting to get ready for exams. So you’re really into the workload at the moment and really busy with that. So it’s just constantly changing depending on the time of the year and what’s happening for those students. Personal Life and Travel [00:04:39] Joseph: What about you personally right now in your life that you’re devoting your energies to outside of work when you can find the time for it? [00:04:48] Sally: Well, I’m over in London and here for such a short amount of time, a couple of years. So travel is so big on the list. It’s how many countries can I hit before I have to go home? I’m off to Ireland next weekend. So really looking forward to that and just keep adding holidays. [00:05:05] Joseph: You haven’t always been a program coordinator at Imperial College Business School, Sally, and I should probably say upfront that you and I actually first crossed paths a few months ago. Because your team invited me to speak at a welcome event for your incoming students and we were chatting before I went up on stage and that’s when I first learned that before you joined Imperial, you used to be a primary school teacher. Sally’s Teaching Journey [00:05:28] Joseph: I want to hear all about that and go back to that chapter in your career. But before we talk about your time as a teacher, can you tell me a little bit about where you’re from? You mentioned home there. And also where you grew up. [00:05:40] Sally: I’m from New Zealand. I’m from a little town called Ohakune, which is in the middle of the North Island. Small town, 900 people of permanent residents there. And I wanted to be a teacher. I went to university to be a teacher. I did my undergrad and my Master’s degree to become a teacher. And then I was a teacher in Wellington for 6 years. For generally 5 and 6 year olds. [00:06:06] Joseph: It sounds like you very quickly decided you wanted to become a teacher. Childhood and Inspiration to Teach [00:06:10] Joseph: What do you remember about your childhood? And I’d be specifically interested to hear about what you used to enjoy doing as a child. Was teaching something that you I guess liked from a very early age? [00:06:22] Sally: Yeah, absolutely. I had some fantastic teachers growing up and being in such a small community. They were teachers that I knew outside of school as well. You know, they were my parents’ friends. And so they just provided such great relationships and really were able to build you up, not only through your English and your maths, but also through who you were as a person and how it provides so many life skills for you. And that was so inspiring as a child, knowing that. You can help me with my spelling, but also help me learn kindness and patience. And that’s something that I wanted to be able to do when I was growing up. [00:06:58] Joseph: At what point did you feel like you officially began your journey toward becoming a teacher? Was it actually when you began your studies, or did it occur to you earlier on when you were a child that, hey, this is what I want to do professionally? I know I like what teachers do, but this is what I actually want to become. [00:07:17] Sally: Probably in high school when you taking different subjects. I always took dance and being able to start leading different groups and being the person, I guess, in charge and empowering others became something really special. And so I knew at that point I wanted to go into some sort of teaching and it wasn’t until. My last year of high school that it was okay. Actually, I want to do primary school teaching and focus on those early milestones for Children. [00:07:48] Joseph: So you mentioned you studied to become a teacher. I, if I have this right, you studied education and psychology at Victoria University of Wellington. [00:07:57] Sally: Correct. [00:07:57] Joseph: Eventually did your Master’s in teaching and learning. Juliet1>Challenges and Rewards of Teaching [00:08:01] Joseph: Let’s talk a little bit about your time as a teacher. What year did you teach or was there a particular age group that you taught and how would you describe the makeup or the profile of the children in your class? [00:08:12] Sally: I generally taught the younger years. So I had five and six year olds. They were in their first and second year of school in New Zealand. We have such a rich culture of Māori and Pasifika. Our culture and our indigenous history is so wound up into our education. So that for me is such a huge part of teaching, teaching the Māori language and culture and the Kaupapa within the classroom. So I had amazing students. I had students from small communities that had rich family histories and just loved. Being at school, children who are five and six love everything. They love being at school. They love learning. And something that I loved about teaching was seeing those light bulb moments for students when they understand something, when they can do something by themselves. And that was what helped make you want to go to school every day. [00:09:03] Joseph: They got that age. Five to six is, is really special. As you may recall, Sally, I have a daughter named Juliet. And when you and I met, she was actually six at the time. She just recently turned seven. She’s now in year two of primary school. And I’ve volunteered at some of her school events just to help out. Like I’ve spoken in one of her classrooms before I’ve joined her field trips. And boy, do I have a huge respect for what teachers do for our kids every single day. My sister was a teacher in the Bronx for several years. As I was dropping her off this morning at school, I was thinking about what sort of questions to ask you about your life as a teacher, but before I get to mine over breakfast this morning, I asked Juliet if she had a question that she would want to ask you, and if you could indulge me for a moment. I’m just going to play this because I asked her, hey, if you could ask a teacher a question, what would it be? Because I’m about to speak to one. So I thought it might be fitting for a child who’s the same age as those kids you used to teach to ask the first question today. And then I’ll get to mine. Managing a Classroom [00:10:06] Juliet: My question is how do you stay on top of the class? And how do you get all the children to listen? [00:10:12] Joseph: And maybe we could take those one at a time. How do you stay on top of all the work that you need to do for the class? Because obviously you’re teaching and you’re managing the classroom all day. So how do you keep up with, I guess, like coursework planning and lesson planning? [00:10:29] Sally: Teaching is not for the fainthearted. It’s a big job with lots of different areas to it. You’ve got your time when you’re in with the children, between nine and three, where you’re doing teaching. You’re running assessments. You’re working one on one and building relationships. And then outside of those nine to three hours, you are doing everything else. You are planning all your lessons. You’re making resources. You’re attending staff meetings, team meetings. professional development, you’re meeting with parents, you’re creating the production, you’re working with the netball team, you have a hundred jobs as a teacher. And I guess you just have to manage your time really efficiently, understand that the different aspects of the day, you know, you fully commit to your in-classroom teaching during nine to three, and what can I get done before nine o’clock, what can I get done? After three o’clock, I would often be at school 7:30 to 5:30 to get work done. Coming in the weekends, I would bring work home with me. You’re busy, really busy, and you don’t have the break until the end of the academic year, where school finishes. You have about a week, you clear out your classroom, tie up all those loose things, and then you’ve got a couple of weeks off before you are there, two weeks before school starts getting ready to go again. [00:11:51] Joseph: Yeah, it’s a lot. Because I know you manage the students there now at Imperial who eventually want to work in primarily the banking or the finance sector. And so we always talk about the long hours that professionals like bankers work, but actually teachers are working very long hours because you’re working at school. And then after you come home from school, you got to plan for the next day at school. What about just keeping the class under control? I don’t think we talked about this, but like how many kids did you have? And how did you go about just maintaining order in the classroom day in and day out? [00:12:24] Sally: It really depends on the age group that you teach, but I would have anywhere between 23 to 30 children in a class at a time. And it would grow as the year went on, as students arrived to the school. But you put on your teaching persona, you have a very special teacher’s voice that only comes out when you’re in the classroom, you’ve got your teacher look that we all know. And I think something that comes down to it is building that relationship with the students and gaining their respect. And that’s so key to being able to get anything to happen in the classroom. You know, those students have to trust you and have to respect you to be able to want to listen. So I think that’s really important, but you do need your teacher voice and your teacher eyes as well. [00:13:10] Joseph: When I think about Juliet’s educational journey so far, as her parent observing her, I’ve seen how every single year of an educational journey is very formative, if you think about going all the way from preschool to year two, which is where she now is, and when I think about her time as a year one student, I feel like that year had an enormously awe inspiring. positive impact on her development academically, socially, physically. And I don’t know if this is just what happens at that age or her own natural development, but I suspect it was due in no small part. to the fact she had an absolutely phenomenal teacher who was actually in her first year of teaching when Juliet had her. So big shout out to Miss Hudson, whom we felt like really took the time to understand her, like her strengths, her struggles, and help her grow in a way. that aligned with who Juliet was and is. We felt like Miss Hudson really saw Juliet and made an effort to understand her and really every child in that class. And even now, Juliet still talks about Miss Hudson as being one of her favorite teachers. And you mentioned respect there, Sally. It’s not just because Juliet liked her. She did like her, but it’s also because Juliet really respected her and thought that she was effective at teaching and managing the class. And I saw this, I witnessed this firsthand when I saw her in action at the field trip, in front of class assemblies, and it just got me thinking, one of the things that really struck me about her year one teacher was that she managed to strike that balance between being liked and being respected by the children. How do you strike that balance? To what extent are those mutually exclusive? Or do they go hand-in-hand? [00:14:58] Sally: It’s so lovely to hear that your daughter’s teacher takes such the time to build that relationship because I think, you know, that’s so core to teaching philosophies is building that relationship. And you’re only going to get the best out of the student if you know them well. And they feel like you know them and they feel like you care about them. That’s the only way to get any teaching and learning done is actually by building that trust with them first. And a child knows. If you don’t like them, I think we see that in teaching when we can all think back to a teacher that we’ve had that hasn’t been particularly nice to you as a teacher that calls you out when actually it was your friend that was talking, you know, we can all think back to those kind of situations. So for the most part, I would say teachers probably love all their students, but I think you’ve got to understand that you’re also the adult in the classroom and you really need to make sure that. As the adult, you are being kind to everyone and giving everyone a chance. Misconceptions About Teaching [00:16:03] Joseph: Did you feel like there were any misconceptions out there about teaching that you either feel exist or maybe you even had yourself about what life is like as a teacher? [00:16:17] Sally: Absolutely. I think the first thing that people say to you when you say, Oh, I’m a teacher, they go, Oh, great. Easy. You babysit nine to three, and then you have so many holidays. That’s how teachers are seen. You’ve just got lots and lots of holidays. So that’s always a bit of a hard pill to swallow because you know how hard you work, and you know how hard the teaching community works, and you’re not often seen. As a professional, the skills that it takes to be a teacher is absolutely incredible. You’re building the milestones for future generations. And so that’s always quite hard to not be looked upon in that light from peers, from the government, from anyone around you. So that’s something that I think all teachers probably face. [00:17:04] Joseph: Why do you think that is, Sally? Why do you think that the professionals out there who were kind of entrusting our children with day in and day out are not perceived in the same way as the types of people that you cross paths with these days, who are more like people who go work in corporate offices, people who work on Canary Wharf. What do you attribute that discrepancy in perception to? [00:17:28] Sally: Sometimes I wonder that because everybody’s been to school. Everyone knows how school works. Everyone has been a student i

Curiosity is something we’re all born with as humans. Most of us come into this world with an immense amount of curiosity. If you ever watch young children around a new set of toys, they’ll excitedly try them all out. Similarly, during the early stages of our careers, we’re thirsty to explore, absorb, and learn as much as we can on the job. However, over time, that curiosity can get dampened and even shut down as a result of work pressures, life realities, or societal expectations around how we should be spending our professional time. Keeping your curiosity alive is one way to open new doors throughout your career. In episode 104 of the Career Relaunch ® podcast, Laura McIntyre , a professional opera singer turned business change consultant at Deloitte, describes her journey of going from the world of performing arts to the corporate world of management consulting. She explains why she decided to walk away from singing, how she managed her transition while making ends meet, and what steps she took to eventually land her job at one of the world’s leading professional services firms. After our chat, I’ll also share some thoughts on the importance of remaining curious in your career during the Mental Fuel ® segment. 💭 Key Career Change Insights Sometimes, your career puts immense amounts of pressure on you in ways you don’t fully register until you hit an emotional or physical limit. When you cross that threshold, you owe it to yourself to recalibrate and reassess where to take your career. Transitions are inevitably messy, often resulting in rejection and setbacks that may lead you to question your original decision to leave your former career behind. Understand that transitions take time, and the ups and downs are par for the course. With enough dedication, exploration, and proactive connection-building, you can increase your chances of eventually identifying and landing a role that better aligns with your interests, skills, and lifestyle. 📚 Resources Mentioned Read this CareerShifters article featuring an interview with Laura where she describes her career journey in more detail. During the Mental Fuel® segment, I referred to Ethan Mollick’s book Co-Intelligence which radically reshaped my views on AI’s role in our work. 💪🏼 Listener Challenge During this episode’s Mental Fuel ® segment, I talked about dedicating a few minutes this week to just learning something entirely new that you find intriguing right now. You could explore an emerging technology affecting your industry. Or learn more about a skill that someone you admire possesses. Or listen to a podcast episode about a topic that you’re curious about. What step will you take to channel your curiosity in your career? 📖 Episode Chapters 00:00:00 Overview 00:01:07 Introduction 00:03:18 Chat with Laura 00:44:27 Mental Fuel 00:50:54 Listener Challenge 00:51:49 Wrap Up 👤 About Laura McIntyre Laura McIntyre is a business transformation consultant at Deloitte focused on connecting people with solutions and empowering them to achieve their personal and professional aspirations. Originally from Lithuania, Laura began her career as a professional opera singer performing in the UK, France, and other European countries. In her spare time, Laura enjoys horseback riding🏇🏼 and working out at the gym💪🏼. You can follow Laura on Instagram and LinkedIn , and check out other insights she’s collecting around career transitions for her Path Changer initiative on Instagram and YouTube . 👍🏻 Did You Enjoy This Episode? Please Let Us Know! Review : I’d appreciate you leaving a positive review and rating for the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Spotify , which helps my show reach more people who want to relaunch their careers. Follow : Be sure to follow the Career Relaunch ® podcast on Apple Podcasts , Spotify , Amazon Music , YouTube Music , or Android to get each new episode on your device automatically. Full instructions . Stay in touch : Follow the Career Relaunch ® podcast on Facebook . You can also follow host Joseph Liu on most major social media platforms. Connect with Joseph 💬 Comments, Suggestions, or Questions? If you have any lingering thoughts, questions, or topics you would like covered in future episodes, record a voicemail for me right here. I LOVE hearing from listeners and aim to respond to every single voicemail I receive. Leave Joseph a Voicemail You can also leave a comment below. Thanks! 🙏🏻 Thanks to Stubble & Co for Supporting the Career Relaunch ® podcast Thanks to Stubble & Co for supporting this episode of the Career Relaunch ® podcast. Crafted for the modern urban professional, Stubble & Co combines premium British design and practical functionality, offering stylish, durable, and high-quality bags made from recycled materials, perfect for work and travels. Check out their full range of products at careerrelaunch.net/stubble . 🎵 Interview Segment Music Credits Nettson – Last Promise Podington Bear – Stars Are Out Lama House – Sola Ventus Hushed – Sibyl Rand Aldo – Paramount Crowning Podington Bear – Trinity Alps Infraction – Nature 📄 Episode Transcript Laura: [00:00:00] Most inventions or innovation has happened because of someone being curious. We never should underestimate curiosity. It’s one of the best things that you can have in your back pocket, and I think it’s going to serve anyone well. Joseph: [00:00:16] Welcome to the Career Relaunch® podcast focused on helping you reinvent your career. My name is Joseph Liu, and I’m here to help you gain the clarity, confidence and courage to overcome the challenges of making changes to your career so you can do more meaningful work and enjoy your professional life. In each episode, I feature people who have stepped off the beaten path to reinvent their careers. We talk through their unique personal journeys, the challenges they overcame, and the lessons they learned along the way to help you understand what it takes to relaunch your own career. Today, my guest is going to share her story of going from an opera singer to a management consultant focused on business transformation. We’ll discuss the importance of keeping an open mind and the hidden upside of uncertain transitions afterwards. During today’s Mental Fuel®, I’ll talk about the role curiosity plays in uncovering career opportunities. Joseph: [00:01:10] Curiosity is something we’re all born with as humans. Most of us come into this world with an immense amount of it. If you ever watch young children around a new set of toys, they’ll excitedly try them out. Similarly, during the earlier stages of our careers, we’re thirsty to explore, absorb, and learn as much as we can on the job. But over time, that curiosity can get dampened and even shut down because of work pressures, life realities, or societal expectations around how we should be spending our professional time. But keeping your curiosity alive is one way to open new doors throughout your career, and we’re going to talk more about this right now. Joseph: [00:01:52] Today, I’m speaking with Laura McIntyre, a business transformation consultant focused on connecting people with solutions and empowering them to achieve their personal and professional aspirations. Originally from Lithuania, Lora began her career as a professional opera singer, performing in the UK, France and other European countries. After realizing her health and emotional well-being were taking a hit from the relentless pressures of performing, Lora decided to take a break from singing and explore some other career paths. She is now a consultant at Deloitte, one of the world’s leading professional services firms, where she focuses on human capital consulting, digital transformation and change management. Now, I first met Lora when she reached out to me on Instagram to discuss the topic of personal branding. We later met up in London to collaborate on one of her projects focused on career change, and we’ve stayed in touch since. Joseph: [00:02:42] Coincidentally, my neighbor who lives right next door to us is actually a professional singer herself. But this conversation with Lora was really my first time getting a deeper, behind the scenes glimpse into what goes into professional opera singing. I think you’re really going to enjoy hearing how Laura managed to pull off her radical career change, going from performing in front of audiences to now working in the corporate world. You can get all the show notes from today’s conversation at Career Relaunch Net 104. Laura spoke with me from Kent, not too far from where I’m based myself here in the UK. Joseph: [00:03:19] Okay, Laura, welcome to the Career Relaunch podcast. Great to see you again and welcome to the show. Laura: [00:03:25] Thank you so much. I’m really glad to be here and happy to see you again. Joseph: [00:03:29] I want to talk with you today, Laura, about your transition from opera singing to consulting, why you left that behind, and also your career transition. But I would love to just start and get a glimpse into what you’re focused on right now. Can you just tell me a little bit about what you’ve been devoting your energy to in your personal and professional life lately? Laura: [00:03:51] In my professional life, I’ve been devoting my time and my energy to my career as a management consultant. So just working on different projects. Really enjoying it, experiencing, working with different teams. I work predominantly across the public sector. Really finding that interesting. Lots of very challenging situations that I have an opportunity to dive into and support my clients in. It’s a really diverse kind of portfolio of the work that I do. And yeah, I’m just finding it really fun at the moment and in my free time. I’ve recently started my gym journey, so I’m becoming an avid gym goer, so I’m devoting a lot of energy and time into that. And also I’m trying to keep up with my horse-riding skills as well. Joseph: [00:04:39] Oh wow. Okay. What kind of horse-riding do you do exactly? Laura: [00:04:43] I suppose it’s called just English riding. Joseph: [00:04:47] Are you jumping over the hurdles? I don’t know the exact terminology. Laura: [00:04:51] A little bit. I’m not quite there yet, but I’m taking some lessons and doing some kind of hacking out into the English countryside as well. Joseph: [00:05:00] And on your LinkedIn profile, Laura, now, I think your jobs title says that you are a business change consultant at Deloitte, and I know that this term consultant and management consultant, it floats around out there. And it’s kind of this, to the outsider, a bit of a black box. Can you just share a snapshot of projects and clients you currently work with? Laura: [00:05:23] I mean, this is actually a really difficult question because really no one knows what a consultant does, right? I believe even the consultants themselves sometimes don’t know what we do. But to keep it neat and short, I predominantly go in to help clients with any challenges related to people as their businesses or their organizations are going through some sort of transformation. So, for example, whether that would be a technology transformation, whether that would be a people-related, culture-related transformation, whether that would be a strategic transformation, whatever it is at the heart of every transformation, there are people. And my focus predominantly within management consultancy is kind of the human capital side of things. It’s kind of a term, I suppose. Used to talk about people as a resource and kind of having that people-centered, human-centered approach to transformation. And within that, one of my key interest areas is business change. Specifically in our organization, we tend to think about professionals in a kind of a T-shaped form, expertise on kind of a high level, broad library of various skills and knowledge. But then we are encouraged to have kind of that t letter going downwards into kind of one key area that you’re perhaps really passionate about, or maybe where you’re kind of greatest talent lies in. So that’s why on my LinkedIn profile I call myself a business change kind of specialist within Deloitte. Joseph: [00:06:59] You haven’t always been a human capital consultant focused on business change and business transformation. At Deloitte, you were a professional opera singer. You performed in the UK, France and other European countries, I think for about seven years, if I have that correct. Before we get to that though, Laura, I’d love to just go back in time a little bit further. And can you just tell me a little bit about you personally? Where did you grow up and what can you remember being interested in as a kid? Laura: [00:07:32] When I was growing up, music was always very close to our family. My mum, was a choir conductor for a while and then she transitioned into working in school as a music teacher. So I ended up going to a lot of her rehearsals, and music was always quite close to my heart. My dad was also a musician, kind of more towards the jazz side of things. So he was also a composer and played in a band. So I suppose music was always running in the family. And then from a very early age, I started playing some instruments and I ended up going to sort of like an after-school club, but like an after-school where you are taught various music subjects like music, history, solfeggio, as well as playing an instrument of your choice. And at the time, the instrument of choice was a piano, predominantly because there was a piano in the house already. So that became kind of the instrument of choice. So I did that for many, many years, pretty much all the way up to when I graduated from school. Joseph: [00:08:40] You played piano? Laura: [00:08:42] Yeah, I played piano for a while, and I sang in various kind of bits and bobs choirs and ensembles in school as well. So to be honest, a lot of my childhood and my kind of young years were spent doing music. Joseph: [00:08:59] And can you remind me, Laura, where you grew up? Laura: [00:09:02] I grew up in Lithuania. I’m a girl from the coast, so I grew up in a city called Klaipėda, and that’s a port. So we were very close to the beach and wonderful forests. It’s a very beautiful part of the country. Joseph: [00:09:19] I’m sorry I’m not that familiar with Lithuania just because I’ve never been there myself. Is music something that’s quite well embraced in the education system in Lithuania? Is it encouraged? Is it part of the typical academic curriculum there? Laura: [00:09:36] At least back in my days, it was part of the general curriculum. You would have a music lesson where you would be encouraged to learn about different sorts of music composers, a little bit of music history, kind of that whole rounded individual type of thing. So not necessarily going too deep, but it has always been encouraged. And every school has or at least used to have various opportunities for children and young adults to get involved in various music activities, bands, orchestras, choirs kind of pursue that passion. The one thing that’s really good, or at least used to be, I keep saying, used to be because I feel like I’m so far removed from it right now. So I kind of really speak into the situation with 100% certainty. But we used to have music schools that were sort of after club, but they offered quite serious music activities for children and for young adults to pursue various instruments and some of the other things that are already mentioned that I was able to learn as well. And it was quite a serious form of education, very well recognized across the country. We used to have exams, I think twice a year, so it’s quite a serious approach to it. The wonderful thing about that, is that it’s government funded and parents don’t have to spend loads and loads of money, which enabled a lot of children from less privileged families to attend as well, because the fee was very, almost like symbolic fee. The majority of the costs were covered by the government. So there’s really an encouragement from the government to pursue these types of careers. Same with the universities. There are a lot of free spots or government-funded spots for talented individuals to apply for. Joseph: [00:11:21] So it sounds like this was a pretty big part of your upbringing. At what point did you decide that, hey, I might want to do this professionally? Like, do you remember when that occurred to you that this could actually become a career for you? Laura: [00:11:35] I kind of fell into it. I did a couple of competitions in my last two years in school. There were sort of singing competitions where I competed. I won a couple of awards, and a lot of the feedback was that my voice would be really suited for classical music and that I should really give it a go, so the feedback was really positive. I kind of enjoyed doing it. I didn’t really have another thing that I was really settled on pursuing as like a very serious career. So when I was graduating from school, I thought, well, why not? Let’s give it a go. So I applied to a university audition type of thing. I did that and I got the spot and I thought, well, great, let’s give it a go. And that’s where it all started. Joseph: [00:12:26] And for somebody maybe who isn’t familiar with the different types of opera singing paths, was there a particular range and type of performance that you eventually ended up focusing on? Laura: [00:12:37] So I think in the early years they avoided trying to put you in a box because when you’re still really young, your voice continues to form up until you’re probably about 25, I think. So it continually grows together with you and it matures. But throughout your journey, you start falling into your own kind of area of you could call it vocal expertise, but yes, it’s something to do with the range, the colour of your voice, kind of where the quality of your sound really lies. And at the time I was considered to be a mezzo-soprano, which is kind of the mid-range vocal kind of performance. Joseph: [00:13:18] And what was your life like as a professional opera singer? Can you give a glimpse into the types of shows or performances that you recall being a part of? Laura: [00:13:28] I think my early career was very much mixed with studying, so I was still kind of a full-time uni student doing all the music lessons and singing classes and exams, and at the same time I applied or auditioned for a couple of roles, and then the National Opera House in Lithuania, and I got the roles. So I was often kind of working and studying at the same time. So I had, I think maybe up to 5 or 6 shows a year. It wasn’t much, but it was just the right amount as kind of a starting singer and to be honest, all the way throughout my career, studying and working kind of always went hand in hand because I think in singing you can rarely walk away from kind of singing lessons. You continually require that improvement. It’s a little bit similar, I suppose, to sports. You always stay connected to your coach. You never really stop learning, you never really stop improving. It always has been connected. So after I did my undergrad studies in Lithuania, I then applied for a kind of. It’s called like a post-grad program in London. And that’s how I arrived here in the UK. So I did a couple of years of that in the Royal Academy of Music here in London. Some of the places that I used to perform the most was Opera Holland Park. They did a lot of kind of seasonal shows, so that was one of my very frequent places that I went to. I still had contracts back home in Lithuania, so I traveled between here and there. Then I spent a year in the National Opera Studio, which created lots of opportunities for me to perform with them on different stages in Leeds, and in London as well. And then I got a contract with Scottish Opera, and I spent about nine months living and working in Glasgow, while at the same time performing in France, as I had a sm

Have you ever felt a bit out of place in your current job? Do you ever feel more like an outsider than an insider at your company? Have you ever struggled to fit in at your workplace? In episode 103 of the Career Relaunch ® podcast, Dorna Lakayan , an architect and designer, describes her international journey to figure out where she belongs, the challenges of penetrating new professional circles, and the emotional dynamics of running your own business I also share some thoughts on fitting into new environments during the Mental Fuel ® segment. 💭 Key Career Change Insights While your instincts can serve you well, over time, logic and reason can overwhelm that instinct as you progress in your career, which can stop you from making brave leaps that align with your true ambitions. Some days, you may wake up and feel like you’re making zero progress, but you still have to find a way to bravely put one foot in front of the other and make consistent efforts to keep moving forward both socially and professionally. You often hear stories of success, but what lies beneath the surface are often lonely, challenging days where things haven’t gone according to plan. It’s part of the journey and helps you get where you ultimately want to go. When people don’t respond in the way you want them to, it may not relate as much to you as it does to their situation or own struggles. If you’re going through a tough time in your career, trust that this shall pass and life will go on. As long as you’re enthusiastic about what you’re doing and excited about your future, opportunities will arise. 💪🏼 Listener Challenge During this episode’s Mental Fuel ® segment, I challenged listeners to find an anchor point that’s consistently served you well, kept you grounded, or just helped you feel more in control. Identify an activity, skillset, person, or place you can reconnect with regularly to create that sense of familiarity that serves as a source of comfort, confidence, and certainty as you face those professional and personal challenges around you. 📖 Episode Chapters 00:00:00 Overview 00:01:07 Introduction 00:02:39 Chat with Dorna Lakayan 00:44:07 Mental Fuel 00:51:08 Listener Challenge 00:51:41 Wrap Up 👤 About Dorna Lakayan, Architect Dorna Lakayan is an interior architect and furniture designer with Persian and Norwegian roots. With Studio Lakayan , she transforms houses into dream homes and brand identities into memorable venues worldwide. Her approach focuses on inhabitants being the center piece of a space, complementing habits and lifestyles through mindful space design and visual harmony. Her philosophy and approach center on the idea that “A good space creates space: to feel, to think, and to be you. Be sure to check out her Lakayan Loves series where she shares her favorite icons in the world of architecture & design. Follow Dorna on Instagram and LinkedIn . 👍🏻 Did You Enjoy This Episode? Please Let Us Know! Review : I’d also love for you to leave a positive review and rating for the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Spotify , which helps my show reach more people who want to relaunch their careers. Follow : Be sure to follow the Career Relaunch ® podcast on Apple Podcasts , Spotify , Amazon Music , YouTube Music , or Android to get each new episode on your device automatically. Full instructions . Stay in touch : Follow the Career Relaunch ® podcast on X and Facebook . You can also follow host Joseph Liu on most major social media platforms. Connect with Joseph 💬 Comments, Suggestions, or Questions? If you have any lingering thoughts, questions, or topics you would like covered in future episodes, record a voicemail for me right here. I LOVE hearing from listeners and aim to respond to every single voicemail I receive. Leave Joseph a Voicemail You can also leave a comment below. Thanks! 🙏🏻 Thanks to BrandYourself for Supporting Career Relaunch BrandYourself offers simple tools and services to help control what people find when they Google you. To clean up, protect, and improve how you look online, visit BrandYourself.com and use promo code ‘RELAUNCH’ to get 50% off a Premium membership. 🎵 Interview Segment Music Credits Comastudio – Background Meditative Ambient Music Bio Unit – Summer Rain Lama House – Tales of the Deep Podington Bear – Ice Climb Podington Bear – Dog and Pony Show Podington Bear – Night Vision Cora Zea – Velvet Uniform Podington Bear – Chimera Joystock – Acoustic Inspiration 📄 Interview Transcript Joseph: I am looking forward to talking with you about a lot of your geographical transitions, and the ups and downs you’ve experienced along the way, your recent decision to start your own architectural firm. But I’d love to start by just first getting a snapshot of your life right now. What are you focused on both personally and also professionally at this moment? Dorna: [02:55] For me, they are not really separated from each other. Maybe being a designer, I have always lived, eat, breathed design, sort of an attitude. My life is design and it’s really intersectionally going forward together. But my focus these days mostly is, of course, establishing my life here in the new country, new city, finding new friends, new colleagues, new collaborators. I’m figuring out what’s next. Joseph: You haven’t always lived in Amsterdam. So, let’s start at the beginning and move forward from there. I’d like to actually go all the way back to your childhood when you grew up in Iran, which is where you’re from. What do you remember about your life in Iran as a child? Dorna: [03:45] I think after coming to Europe, my biggest memory of Iran relates to the sun. It was a very sunny part of the world. Especially when you are a child, maybe you are more curious. You see more, you observe more. So I remember a lot of patterns, a lot of colors. We live in a part of the world where the sun is available. So a lot of architecture and a lot of things are built around it. The shadows. The concept of actually shadowed spaces and sunny spaces or light spaces. So there’s a lot of things about the architecture. Of course, I remember, but then, I came from a family where architecture was important or art was important. So maybe that’s why most of my memories are around it as well. Or maybe I was just curious as a child to become an architect, I don’t know. Joseph: Were your parents also involved in some sort of design or architectural industry? Dorna: [04:49] My dad is a civil engineer and my mom is an artist, or used to be. It was never a profession, but she was just into art. So she would paint and make a lot of things. As a child, I was a very preserved child. I wouldn’t show so much of my emotions. To help me to show more as a child, my mom taught me that I can create things and show things with creating stuff. I had ended up sewing, knitting, and all of those little things that a child can do. Painting, and writing cards and notes, and things like that. So that was my daily routine of creating. Joseph: In most cases on this show, we would typically feature somebody who has a certain professional background and then they switch sectors and they maybe switch roles within a company. Now, in your case, you from a very early start, wanted to become an architect. At what point did you realize that and how did you know you wanted to become an architect? Dorna: [05:44] Yeah, the thing is I didn’t have the title, so I didn’t know what I wanted to become is an architect. That was the whole. But I knew that I love to create and I love to do things within spaces. For many years, I had a title for myself. I called myself the psychologist of spaces. Because I really thought, or I still believe that, that you can somebody’s feelings, emotions, habits, a lot of things about how easy your life is by having good space. And then, as a child, I called myself a psychologist of space, of course. But then, my best friend then was an architect. One evening, I saw a book in their home, which is the drawing of, or a picture of, the Frank Lloyd Wright’s waterfall house, the Fountain House. And then, when I saw that, this interaction between outside, inside was so interesting, and how the waterfall had gone under that building and all of these beautiful things. So I went to his father and said, “What should I do? What kind of profession should I have to be able to do this?” He said, “You need to be an architect.” That was the day I realized I needed to be an architect. Joseph: For those people out there like me who have never been to Iran, how would you describe the overall professional scene in the city where you grew up? Dorna: [07:23] When I left Iran, I was quite young. I was 24. So I can’t really say much about the professional scene because I worked only a few years there. But generally speaking, architecture and civil engineering, which are the dominant jobs in the field, are quite masculine. So you don’t see so many females on the — I didn’t. I don’t know, maybe now, it has changed. All I remember was that you needed some sort of support from somebody. But then, that can also come from the fact that I was very young. So I needed mentors and people who would help me. Generally, Iran is a country full of architecture. There is a big history and a very rich history about architecture in that part of the world, so you learn a lot. But it’s not practiced that way, of course, anymore. Joseph: What ultimately led you to decide to leave Iran behind? Dorna: [08:26] I don’t think you make this decision in Iran. You kind of grow with it, which is a kind of sad part of their story because it’s, according to me, one of the best places to be. Due to the whole situation in that part in the Middle East, with all the complications it has, I think as a child, if you have the ability to grow and learn and are curious enough to leave, you are kind of encouraged to do it from a very young age. That was the same for me. I learned English when I was quite young. I started learning English at a very young age. And then, before you know it, when I felt like everything was settled and I’m now an architect and I can take care of myself and everything, it was time to be curious and leave. I cannot really say it was a decision made, but maybe it was, but it was also grown in me. It’s a very complicated thing to say. But generally speaking, comes out of curiosity to learn more and to see more. Because, obviously, I went to study. That’s how I left. The decision was not there if I was going back or not. Joseph: What year was this? Dorna: [09:36] 2010. That’s when I left the first time. Joseph: This is not a political show. But, obviously, at the time, things were probably a bit unstable sanctions in place. Dorna: [09:48] Yes. Joseph: And so, I would imagine. Dorna: [09:49] As a young person, of course, you have a future in front of you and you want to build and create, but you also know that things are not going to get better and the opportunities are not going to rise. I already see a lot of friends who are there. Imagine the inflation rate and all of these things are affecting your career, and your decisions, and all of that. So taking risks is harder. Hope, maybe; having a hopeful future is harder. In that sense, I think. Of course, I don’t regret that decision, but anyway, it’s your hometown. You have friends, and family, and memories, you speak the language. It’s a different thing. Joseph: Just to switch gears here and talk about the next chapter of your career. Where did you go and how did you decide on where to go next? Dorna: [10:43] First destination was Malaysia, Kuala Lumpur. That really just happened. Because I actually had been admitted to study architecture in Oxford. That day that I was supposed to get my ticket, I couldn’t. Oxford just said, “Oh, you’re too late.” I was like, “Okay, now what?” I had a friend who knew a few people in Malaysia. He was just like, “Yeah, why not go to Malaysia and see how it is?” I’m like, “Sure, let’s do that.” And then, I went to Malaysia, Kuala Lumpur. I went to the school, talked to a few people, liked it there. I said, “Okay, I want to study more of architecture.” And then, I started actually interior architecture. And then, after that, I worked a little bit. I worked at the school. I worked at an American company in design. And then, while I was there, I decided that I didn’t want to stay there. It didn’t feel like a place for me to want to build my future, like to call home. That’s when I decided to move towards Europe and see what is Europe. Joseph: Now, I know you just mentioned you just got to have a friend, and then you end up moving to Kuala Lumpur. Did you have the means to just pick up and just move to a new country? It seems like a big leap to make. I guess immigration wasn’t an issue for you going into Malaysia. Dorna: [12:09] When I went to Malaysia, first of all, I was not thinking that I was immigrating. Joseph: I see. Dorna: [12:13] In my head, I was going on this street to see what was happening. And then, I ended up staying. I was not even a student at the time. I went there, and I went to school, and I liked the school, and I stayed. The whole thing. Generally speaking, I always have been told in my life that I’m a very brave person. Up until a few years ago, I kept saying, “No, what’s brave about me?” But I have started to realize, maybe I am brave or braver than I think. Joseph: Yeah. Dorna: [12:41] Now, it’s funny for me when I think about it. What was I thinking? Twenty-three-year-old, and then you just go somewhere and you are like, “Oh, this is cool. I want to learn. Oh, my God, look at these buildings.” Because being in Iran, of course, you have all of these historical sites, and old vernacular, and clay architecture, and colors, and everything. I was in Kuala Lumpur with skyscrapers, and new modern technologies. Architects from Australia, America, Europe. Everybody was in Kuala Lumpur building something. So it was really a new theme of architecture. I was like this little kid who was in a candy store. It’s like, “Oh my God, look at this, and look at that, and look at this.” It was fun. Joseph: Before we talk about your next move, you mentioned that you didn’t quite see your future there. What was it about being there that led you to believe that you didn’t envision yourself being there long-term? Dorna: [13:43] I think it was mostly about the fact that — maybe this is too extreme to say it this way, but I didn’t feel safe as a citizen. Funnily, for me, I know this is not an impression for a lot of people, Iran was safer and more convenient to be at. Of course, this can come from the fact that I was an immigrant. So it’s a different level. You look different. Whatever you do, you look different. And then, of course, we all know being a woman, it’s also another minority, a little bit, in our business, which is architecture, real estate, things like that. I didn’t really see myself building what I envisioned because I think, especially at that time, I was seeing myself like I wanted to be a Frank Lloyd Wright. That’s how I started the whole journey and that was not happening there. I couldn’t see that. I still was lacking some sort of trust in my surroundings or some sort of trust in what I want to build. That was not there for me yet. That can also come from the fact that I was a junior in Malaysia. It’s like you just graduated architecture school. You are super young. Joseph: Yeah, that’s interesting. I do think that sometimes in our careers, and I consider myself quite a logical left-brained individual. But sometimes, you can just kind of feel that nothing is really going to progress where you’re at. You can just kind of feel it. You can kind of tell that there’s not really a future for you in this location, or this organization, or this sector, and you have to do something about it. Otherwise, you’ll just stagnate. Dorna: [15:27] Funnily, now, every day, I’m trying so hard to go back to that because I think the older I got, the more I saw, the more wisdom came, the more doubt in my instinct also came with it. And then, when you are young, your instincts are talking really loud and clear. You trust them and you go for it, and that’s what everybody calls “young and crazy.” But I really now hope I can become young and crazy every day in my life. That would be fantastic. Joseph: Right. So speaking about another potentially young and crazy move, you decided to move to Europe. Dorna: [16:07] Yeah. Joseph: Where did you end up going and why did you choose that destination? Dorna: [16:11] I went from Kuala Lumpur, the city of never-ending summer to Oslo, part of the world that is well known for its lack of sunlight. Oslo was practically to do my master’s. My destination was Europe. That I knew the way to come to Europe for me in my head was to do my master’s. The main focus was, of course, architecture and design. Joseph: This was general design. Dorna: [16:42] Yeah, general design, exactly. But, of course, within space. So that’s what I wanted to do. And then, I sent applications to a few universities, among which National Academy of the Arts in Oslo gave me admission. At the time, I had to choose, of course, between these universities when I got, because I got admission from a few. The question was, “Which is my destination?” I didn’t really choose it based on the geography, but based on the school. I did some research and National Academy of Arts where I was admitted to do a Master in Design at the best workshops available in Europe. Me, coming from this background in architecture where I had all the theory in my pocket, could really benefit from being somewhere where I can actually be hands-on and create with my hands, not only with my brain. That opportunity was 100% available in Oslo. I took that chance and I went there, and I can say it was one of the best experiences. Those two years at that school, I did a lot of hands-on work, and I learned a lot about construction. Joseph: So it sounds like from an educational standpoint, this was a really positive move in your life. Dorna: [18:03] One hundred percent. Joseph: How would you describe how this move felt compared to your move going from Iran to Malaysia? Was it the same? Is this one of those quite modular skills being able to make an international move? Was it easier? Was it harder? How did it compare? Dorna: [18:22] Iran was different from Malaysia, and Malaysia was different from Norway. Every country has its own ups and downs, and difficulties and challenges. So I can’t really put that on scale. But definitely, it was scarier for me to this time move. One thing that was very apparent and immediately tangible was the difference in the culture. I came from a culture that was very giving, very social, and very warm and open to a culture that was quite preserved, very colder than my hometown and things like that. It was a challenge to figure out what now or how. There are these unwritten rules, I said, or social aspects that you have to learn or social codes that you have to crack. That was a challenge. Joseph: You’ve touched on this. I wouldn’t mind going a little deeper into this because I think it’s a realistic consideration when you’re moving countries. You’ve talked about being a minority, both first of all, as a female in a quite male-heavy industry, but also a minority in the sense of being a minority as an immigrant in Oslo. I was looking up some stats on this, and I was actually surprised, because I’ve been to Oslo before, and I had expected the immigration figures to be lower, but immigrants makeup about 35% of Oslo’s population, give or take. As a comparison in London, which is where I’m based, it’s around the same. It’s around 38%. I would have expected a slightly larger difference. New York City, it’s about 36%. But at the same time, regardless of whether it’s 36 % or half or 10%, you still recognize that you’re an immigrant in a country and you feel tha

The start of a new job or chapter in your career can be a sensitive, delicate time. It’s a moment when you’re trying to convince yourself you’ve made the right move. It’s also a moment when you’re trying to convince others you can do something, which may be very different from what you were doing before. Moving onto something new is harder than holding on to what you already have, even if what you have isn’t bringing you joy. In episode 102 of the Career Relaunch ® podcast, Sandeep Achanta , a former fitness professional in India turned service designer in the UK describes how you can discover what ignites you, bravely leap into a new professional role, and embrace your unique career journey. I also share some thoughts on overcoming the mental hurdle of starting over during the Mental Fuel ® segment. 💭 Key Career Change Insights While you may be in a comfortable job with relative stability, you might still feel like something is off, like you could be doing more. When this happens, you have to ask yourself when you will cross a tipping point and make the leap to do something else. The decision to change careers is separate from the transition process. The actual transition could take months or years to execute, which is just part of making a major pivot. If you’re dissatisfied with your current role, you have broadly two options. You can either find a way to tolerate and manage your situation, or you can proactively attempt to do something else. Humility is a critical component of making any career change. You may have to start over a bit, drop down to a lower rung on a corporate ladder, or report to someone who may be younger than you. During a career change, we tend to discount or dismiss away our previous experiences that don’t directly relate to a new role. Those experiences are exactly what enables you to make your unique contribution. 📚 Resources Mentioned Sandeep mentioned he began his exploration of service design with the Interaction Design Foundation . Learn more about CrossFit at the official CrossFit website . 💪🏼 Listener Challenge During this episode’s Mental Fuel ® segment, I talked overcoming the emotional hurdle of starting over. My challenge to you is to identify one small, imperfect step you could take toward doing something that could allow you to feel more energized. Ideas include: Giving yourself a quiet moment to just reflect on how you’ve been emotionally feeling about your career Taking a small leap of faith. Taking stock of which skills or experiences you want to carry forward so you can more fully buy into making that leap. Remember, you don’t have to have it all mapped out right now. You just have to start somewhere. 📖 Episode Chapters 00:00:00 Overview 00:01:07 Introduction 00:03:17 Chat with Sandeep Achanta 00:45:54 Mental Fuel 00:52:04 Listener Challenge 00:52:48 Listener Thoughts 00:54:59 Wrap Up 👤 About Sandeep Achanta Sandeep Achanta is currently a Service Designer working at the Bank of England. After spending over a decade in the fitness industry in India across various roles such as trainer, business owner, and product lead, he decided to pursue a Master’s program in Service Design at Loughborough University London. During his time at university, he worked on projects with organisations such as Mind, the mental health charity, and the Hackney Council public health team. Sandeep is passionate about designing great services that are sustainable and improve health and well-being. In his spare time, he loves playing tabletop games and reading fantasy fiction. 👍🏻 Did You Enjoy This Episode? Please Let Us Know! Review : I’d also love for you to leave a positive review and rating for the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Spotify , which helps my show reach more people who want to relaunch their careers. Follow : Be sure to follow the Career Relaunch ® podcast on Apple Podcasts , Spotify , Amazon Music , YouTube Music , or Android to get each new episode on your device automatically. Full instructions . Stay in touch : Follow the Career Relaunch ® podcast on X and Facebook . You can also follow host Joseph Liu on most major social media platforms. Connect with Joseph 💬 Comments, Suggestions, or Questions? If you have any lingering thoughts, questions, or topics you would like covered in future episodes, record a voicemail for me right here. I LOVE hearing from listeners and aim to respond to every single voicemail I receive. Leave Joseph a Voicemail You can also leave a comment below. Thanks! 🙏🏻 Thanks to A2 Hosting for Supporting the Career Relaunch® podcast A2 Hosting is the web host provider I use and trust for my own websites, and they even offer 100% carbon neutral green hosting. For an easy, fast, and affordable way to get your personal website online today, visit careerrelaunch.net/a2 to get 50% off your web hosting plan. 🎵 Interview Segment Music Credits Kevin Shrout – d’entreprise en feu Hazy – Letting Go Lotus – The Warm and Absolute Lama House – Lupina’s Dream Podington Bear – Lucky Stars Diet 75 – 66 Halos Joystock – Write Your Story 📄 Interview Transcript Joseph: Okay, Sandeep. Thank you so much for taking the time to join me here on the Career Relaunch podcast. It is great to have you on the show. Sandeep: [03:25] Thank you so much for having me on. Like I said, I’ve been a long-time fan and listener of the podcast, so it really is a pleasure and an honor to be on. Joseph: Let’s start by talking about what has been keeping you busy in your career and your life at this moment. What are you focused on right now? Sandeep: [03:45] I’ve just about landed on the other side of my career change journey. I’ve just started working as a service designer at the Bank of England. And so, what I’m really focused on is getting a sense of what it’s like to work in this field, and getting a sense of how to use a new toolkit that’s at my fingers, so to speak. Joseph: For those people, like me, who are not exactly familiar with what a service designer does, I think it’s probably a less common job title. What exactly do you do for the Bank of England? Sandeep: [04:20] A service designer helps manage the people, systems, processes, and interactions in the end-to-end delivery of a service. Basically, think of any common service that we interact with on a day-to-day basis, like a coffee shop. That’s the easiest example because you can sort of break it down from the beans to the cup of coffee in your hand and essentially, you’re thinking about all the different steps that it goes through, all the people that enable those steps, and then how all of those things fit together. A service designer basically looks at that and says, “Here are some things that we can do better to improve the experience, to be more efficient at it,” or might even potentially create a completely new service getting coffee delivered to your doorstep, for example, is a service innovation, so to speak. Joseph: How long have you been in this line of work? Sandeep: [05:12] Three months. Joseph: Three months, okay. This is really cool because we’re catching you right at the very beginning, which is nice because I can kind of hear some of your thoughts about the transition. I will come back to your time at the Bank of England, which I know is quite a new role for you. But before we do that, let’s go back in time. I know you haven’t always been a service designer for the Bank of England. Where are you from originally, and where did you grow up as a kid? Sandeep: [05:36] I moved around a lot when I was younger, but I primarily grew up in Chennai in South India. It was a fairly normal Indian upbringing. I grew up in school, expecting to become a doctor, engineer. I guess it was the only two options. There were things like lawyers and everything else further along the line, but those were the only two options. I always had a keen interest in art, and drawing, and sketching. I ended up sort of going to a career in graphic design early on. Joseph: What do you remember about life there as a child in Chennai? I guess I’m interested in both just what was on your mind at the time, if you can remember that far back, and also the types of things that you were interested in. I know you just alluded to that just now. Sandeep: [06:24] I think what I remember most about my time in Chennai is, I’ve moved around a lot when I was a kid. I remember when I was really young that my brother and I responded to the moving around in very different ways. My brother was very extroverted and he made friends very quickly. I was a little bit more introverted. It took me a little bit longer to make friends and to get used to it. Every time we moved, it was a little disrupted. But something that I found was when I was getting a little older that really helped me make friends was that I was always interested in sort of making up stories and in collaborating, for lack of a better word, on creating stories. I used to play a crude version of Dungeons and Dragons back in India. We used to play a lot of tabletop games or board games, and there would be a lot of made-up games that we’d essentially come up with. I guess, in a strange way, it does connect to some of the things I’m doing now. Joseph: Let’s go through the journey here. You mentioned you worked in graphic design, initially. And then, pretty quickly, shifted to work in the fitness industry. Do I have that right? How did that all start for you? Sandeep: [07:37] I started work in the graphic design industry. Essentially, I was working as a graphic designer for a few different companies. There was a publishing house, and there was travels and tours company. Essentially, when I joined as a designer, what I ended up doing for them was logistics. It was a very small company, a start-up. And so, everyone wore multiple hats. I found that I automatically sort of gravitated towards this other skill set that I had of organizing things and being able to effectively sort of keep track of tasks and delegate things. I found myself not enjoying the work as much because the growth was slow, as anyone in graphic design or advertising will tell you, the first eight to 10 years is essentially a grind. Unless you deeply enjoy the work, it can be difficult to have staying power. I found that it wasn’t really going anywhere. I wasn’t really learning a whole lot. I was thinking about what to do next. Around that time, I ended up joining a CrossFit-like gym that was back home in India. I really enjoyed it. I had such a great time. I liked it so much in fact that I asked him, “Hey, can I intern here?” Joseph: You were doing CrossFit yourself. You were the one doing the exercise. Sandeep: [08:56] Yeah. Joseph: Okay. Sandeep: [08:57] It was a different lifetime. Essentially, what I would do is — and it was amazing because I can’t imagine the amount of energy that I had in my early 20s. Joseph: Yeah. Sandeep: [09:06] Because I would essentially wake up at 4:00, intern there from 5 o’clock to 8 o’clock in the morning, shower, go to my day job, finish up at 5:00 in the evening, go back home, pass out, and repeat this for the rest of the week. After about six months of doing that, they said, “You sure are hanging out here a whole lot and you want a job.” It was a difficult transition because I had to get qualified, get my certifications under my belt. My parents weren’t particularly happy that all of the education that they invested in was amounting to their son becoming, in their words, a gym trainer, but I was really, really passionate about it and I had a knack for it as well. The few times that I did, for example, jump in and run classes, I’ve always got very positive feedback. And so, about six months later, I ended up jumping on both legs and started working as a trainer in the fitness industry. Joseph: That’s interesting because this is back in — do I have this right? 2011-ish, around that time. This is way before CrossFit became a big thing, which is I think it has become way more popular in recent years. You’re actually teaching these classes and you are a trainer at the gym. How did you enjoy that? What was that like for you? Sandeep: [10:17] I really, really enjoyed it. I really enjoyed working with people, which is something that hit me. The job made me realize I really enjoyed working closely with people, helping them improve the quality of their lives, having conversations about their well-being. The most important part of it for me was really that, oftentimes, this was the first part of people’s days. It was at 5 a.m., 6 a.m., or 7 a.m. I really enjoyed that if I did everything right as a service, and I was able to give someone an excellent start to their day, my assumption was that the rest of their day went well. Usually, that was the feedback that we got as well. People were like, “Oh, I feel so great. I’m so happy when I come in and do my workout. Can I just do this all the time?” I really enjoyed having that experience. And so, I really enjoyed it. The other side of it that I really found myself enjoying as well was that I found myself very, very passionate to learn about anatomy, physiology, nutrition, and the whole nuts and bolts of it. I remember really getting very, very nerdy into it, and I remember getting about five or six certifications in the span of a couple of years, which was fairly rapid, and some of them were not easy to complete. Joseph: That’s really interesting. I’m just curious, were you always somebody who had been interested in fitness yourself? Had you been a pretty healthy guy growing up, or were you someone who was exercising a lot? Sandeep: [11:47] Funnily enough, not at all. Actually, I’ve never played sports in my life. I’ve never engaged in formal sports. But that said, and here’s something that I found out only much later, my mom tells me that when I was much. much younger, I really enjoyed climbing. I really enjoyed randomly running around the neighborhood and being physically active. I just didn’t like sports. I just didn’t like organized sports at all. And so, when they did put me in organized sports, I didn’t respond well. But before that, I always did enjoy it. Even after that, yes. Before I got into the fitness industry as well, I used to like trying random physical endeavors; like rock climbing or parkour. I could never stick to anything for very long, but I did enjoy experimenting for sure. Joseph: You would start off as a trainer. You were doing that for a while. And then, eventually, you switched over and shifted more toward doing work on the business side of the training and fitness industry. Tell me about that transition. Sandeep: [12:53] It started with the organization that I was working for. And so, the first step, as with any early career, is I essentially went from being a trainer to managing other trainers. Again, that was also a process that I really enjoyed because as I had mentioned earlier, I really enjoyed being organized. And so, as you can imagine, a lot of the trainers that we were getting were quite young. They were between 18 and 21, 22, and oftentimes, this was their first job. I really enjoyed the process of mentorship; both in terms of bringing them onboard into what being a fitness professional was like. But then, also actually onboarding them onto being a working professional; showing up on time, being professional with the clients, knowing what to say and what not to say, which is a bigger deal than you think it is, especially in an exercise environment. I really enjoyed that process. And then, from that stage, essentially, I went to managing a center. This is when I got involved in sales. This is when I got involved in marketing. This is when I got involved in ensuring that the finances of the center made sense. If I had stayed there longer, I think I would have gotten involved in the strategic side of things as well. Joseph: Were you thinking at the time that this was what you’re going to do long-term? Were you enjoying that? Did you see yourself in that industry for a while? Sandeep: [14:18] At that point, I honestly thought I would be doing it forever. How things changed. Joseph: What changed for you? When did you start thinking that you might want to shift and do something else? Sandeep: [14:28] I think towards the end of it, unfortunately, I found myself limited in terms of the impact that I could have. I remember, I kept coming back to the idea of impact and I had to really unpack it for myself and understand what I meant by that. I realized that it was important to me that services or products that I created were scalable, replicable, and widely applicable. I didn’t have the knowledge to do that. I had become such a specialist that, essentially, from that organization, I moved to another organization where I was helping create fitness products that were being delivered to a much bigger audience. We were then creating services for 100,000 to 150,000 customer base. I still found that the ways that I was contributing to that were fairly limited. I was writing workouts, creating operating procedures for the trainers, or ideating with product developers on what might be ways to create new interesting workouts. I couldn’t help but shake the feeling that I could do more. I just couldn’t do it right now. Once I realized that it was almost as though the seeds of dissatisfaction were sown, and over the next couple of years, it just started becoming more and more obvious to me that I needed to move. Joseph: Yeah, this is something I think that comes up with a lot of people who both come on to this show and also listeners of this show, as you are in a fairly comfortable environment, fairly comfortable job. You have a decent amount of financial and personal “success,” and yet, you just feel like something’s a little bit off. I’m just wondering, what was the tipping point for you when this went from dissatisfaction to complete dismay where you knew that something had to change for you? Sandeep: [16:22] It actually went through several steps. I think as much as I would like to sit here and say that there was a flash of inspiration and I knew what I had to do, it actually took, I’d say, almost three years and went through several iterations. When I was working with this organization, as I thought through it a little bit, and I did work with a therapist on essentially mental health issues that I was having, because I was burnt out by the work that I was doing, I realized that the idea of autonomy and agency was quite important to me. With large organizations, as you can imagine, that’s not something that’s easily available to everyone. I think there’s autonomy and agency right at the top. And then, unless you’re at sea level, and maybe not even there, there isn’t necessarily a lot of autonomy. And so, I realized that that was important to me. That was a core value. And so, I did what was a potentially very risky move and quit my job in the midst of the pandemic to try and create my own online fitness service with the intent that this would be much more holistic. It wouldn’t be focused on losing weight or getting six-pack abs, but it would be much more living a better quality of life, integrating fitness practices, and good nutrition practices into your core values, and so on. I did that for a little while and it was successful. But then, what started happening was I realized two things. One, that I’m not a very good entrepreneur. I wasn’t very good at drawing boundaries for myself when I was working as an entrepreneur. That made it very difficult for me to have work-life balance. It was around this time that I got engaged. After enough weekends of listening to me whine about this, my fiancé, now wife, said I either have to do something about this or say you’re going to do it, continue doing it, and then deal with it. But the other side of it was also that I started doing a lot of the exercises that I had mentioned when we initially spoke that I’d come across o

When was the last time you took some time off from work? I often feel this pressure to keep plowing ahead in my career, to not take detours, and to not slow down. However, taking a momentary pause during a job transition is often the only real opportunity you have to slow down, recalibrate, and reconsider where you want to take your career next. HR professional Gisela Prunes Garcia shares her thoughts on the complexities of living and working in different countries, putting yourself out there before you’re ready, and managing your internal thoughts during uncertain career transitions. In episode 101 of the Career Relaunch ® podcast, I also share some thoughts on the tension between professional achievement and periodic reflection during the Mental Fuel ® segment. 💡Key Career Change Insights Returning to your home country after living elsewhere may not always fill you with the comfort you might expect from familiar surroundings and can instead leave you feeling confused about where you belong. Talking about your career when you’re working for an established, well-known company is much easier than discussing your transitions or messy periods in your professional trajectory. While uncomfortable, career transitions can be a very fertile ground to explore other interests and paths that you may have otherwise ignored or overlooked while being focused on climbing the corporate ladder. 🚀Listener Challenge During this episode’s Mental Fuel ® segment, I challenge you to periodically permit yourself to slow down, even if it’s just for a day, and allow yourself to have a bit of a metaphorical palate cleanser. During these momentary pauses, ask yourself: What’s my level of satisfaction with where my career is headed right now? What action can I take to better align my work with my natural strengths and interests? Where would I like my life to be a year from now, both personally and professionally? 5 years from now? 🎧Episode Chapters 00:00:00 Overview 00:01:07 Introduction 00:03:47 Discussion with Gisela Prunes Garcia 00:42:33 Mental Fuel 00:49:38 Listener Challenge 00:50:09 Wrap Up 👤About Gisela Prunes Garcia Gisel Prunes Garcia is a Human Resources professional from Barcelona who lived in the United States for the past 12 years. Her career in corporate started in Barcelona at Sara Lee Corporation, a Fortune 500 company in consumer goods, where she worked for a few years until she decided to move to California in 2012. She went on to explore different industries while building up a new life and career in a new culture, in a second language with no network. Her most recent experiences were with The Walt Disney Company in HR Production and Getty Images managing Creative and Editorial client groups. She specializes in finding opportunities that drive solutions to improve the employee experience and business results. Working in various industries and with highly creative folks allowed her to form unique perspectives and develop agility to analyze problems and find holistic and creative solutions. Follow Gisela on Instagram and LinkedIn . ⭐️Enjoy This Episode? Please Let Us Know! Review : I’d also love for you to leave a positive review and rating for the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Spotify , which helps my show reach more people who want to relaunch their careers. Follow : Be sure to follow the Career Relaunch ® podcast on Apple Podcasts , Spotify , Amazon Music , Google Podcasts , Stitcher , or Android to get each new episode on your device automatically. Full instructions . Stay in touch : Follow the Career Relaunch ® podcast on Twitter and Facebook . You can also follow host Joseph Liu on most major social media platforms. Connect with Joseph 💬Comments, Suggestions, or Questions? If you have any lingering thoughts, questions, or topics you would like covered in future episodes, record a voicemail for me right here. I LOVE hearing from listeners! Leave Joseph a Voicemail You can also leave a comment below. Thanks! 🙏🏻Thanks to Wise for Supporting the Career Relaunch ® podcast Wise is the world’s most international bank account. It lets you hold and convert multiple currencies all in one place, offering a smarter, easier way to move money internationally without the typical bank fees or foreign exchange commissions. I’ve used it for years myself to handle many of my own international transactions. Try Wise for free at CareerRelalunch.net/wise . 🎵Interview Segment Music Credits Nettson – Last Promise Ikson – Night Podington Bear – Buttom Mushrooms Lama House – Lupina’s Dream Alan Ellis – Sea Terms Cora Zea – Canon in Db Keys of Moon – Warm Memories JNGS – Lit ✍🏼Episode Interview Transcript Joseph: Hello, Gisela. Thank you so much for joining me here on the Career Relaunch podcast. It is great to have you on the show. Gisela: [03:53] Thank you for having me. I’m very excited. Joseph: We got a lot to talk about between your time in Spain and moving to the U.S., then eventually moving back to Spain. I was hoping we could start by just getting a glimpse into what you’re focused on right now in your career and your life. Could you just give us a quick snapshot? Gisela: [04:13] Right now, I think that I’m in one of the most convoluted times of my journey, one of those that are very gray and you are kind of lost in the mist and kind of stuck. Joseph: That’s very common for people to be at, that’s why we’re talking. What’s been confusing about this particular time? Gisela: [04:31] I’m going through a lot of change in a lot of areas of life. When more than one changes, it elevates the stress. And so, being able to manage that at this moment, it’s becoming a challenge and terrifying as well. Joseph: Just to set the scene here, could you just tell us, where are you right now and what are you up to right now, both personally and professionally? Gisela: [04:58] I’m in Spain, that’s where I’m from. I’m currently in Barcelona. I recently came here but I was in the U.S. for the past almost 13 years, but I’m originally from Spain so I just returned. I don’t know for how long, but I decided to come back here and spend more time with family recently, the last 2-3 months. Joseph: Can you describe the work that you are at least thinking about doing moving forward? I know you’re in the transition right now and still figuring it out. Gisela: [05:34] I’ve been working in corporate in my career. Since I was still living in college, I was already trying to figure out what I wanted to do when doing internships in companies. So since very, very early stage in my career, I’ve been in corporations, mostly big corporations. Right now, I’m taking a pause on everything career-wise to process this transition or the moment in life that I find myself in. I’m assessing and exploring too if I would like to become an entrepreneur and how would I do with that. Joseph: Let’s kind of go back in time a little bit. You mentioned you’re back in Spain now, and you had moved to the U.S. at the beginning of your career. I want to talk about what triggered you to move countries, but can we just start from the very beginning of your career? I know you’ve spent a lot of your career in the corporate world focused on HR. What got you interested in working in human resources at the very beginning? Gisela: [06:30] I was very compelled by the human resources work. But because in education really, I found that this is a field that it’s not very explored no matter what you studied. I felt like I really wanted to get a sense of it working and experiencing myself, what it is to working in each of the other departments. So very young, I got an internship at the time was Sara Lee, and I was based in Barcelona. Since the moment that I got into that company, and previously I already tried different fields, but experienced at this company, I loved it. I loved the combination of skill sets, working in a business, but also everything that had to do with talent management. I really loved it. I thought, “This could be my career.” Joseph: So from the start, you’re at Sara Lee, were you thinking that HR was the best fit for you? Were you pretty certain about that at the time? Did it feel right to you at the time? Gisela: [07:25] Yes, it did. I like to add different things. I was also interested in education, but I felt very comfortable in a business setting and in a business environment. I think that’s what made me stay and continue learning about it. I was doing well. I decided to explore all the different facets and areas of human resources. Joseph: Now, eventually, you made a pretty big decision to leave your home country, and eventually move to the U.S. I’d love to dive into this a little bit because I know it’s a major decision to relocate countries; as someone, myself, who’s done it. What triggered you to think about moving away from Spain and how did you choose the U.S. to be your destination? Gisela: [08:12] I wanted to expand my career and make it be international in my experience and learn about other countries. I knew that if I wanted to have like a career that’s like international, I would have to learn English and that was my pending signature. I’ve never been good at learning languages. I thought after a few years at Sara Lee, I was still in my early 20s and I felt myself very settled in Spain and there was something that I was like, “I need to explore.” I always been like this dedicated person; studying, working, having two jobs while studying, and I was already doing well. But too settled for my tastes. So I thought, “This is the moment. Let’s study English somewhere.” I just opened a map and literally decided, “Okay, where in the world I could go to learn English, that has a sunny location?” So that was my first indicator of like, it has to be like a sunny place. And then, I ended up going to San Diego. Joseph: San Diego. Gisela: [09:12] California. Joseph: Yes. good choice. How was your transition to the U.S.? What did you do when you first got there and how did you settle in? Gisela: [09:21] It was tough. At the beginning, I thought it was just going to be a vacation while I was in language school. So it’s a very different mindset than when you are actually settling to live in a new country. At the beginning, it was very fun. It was an amazing one of the best experiences that I ever had while I was in language school, 8 to 10 hours a day, really mastering. My English skills are trying because they were like pretty much non-existent. But then, things change when you are already like, “Let’s live here. Let’s try to start a career here.” Still with basic level of English, that was probably the toughest experience of my career. Especially in human resources since you need to know a lot in the employment law, the legislation. I would not finish the phone interview screenings. I was not able to because I had a lot of difficulty understanding them. Little by little, when that improved, the recruiters would tell me, “You have good experience in Europe. But here in the U.S., we require pretty like medium to high level of knowledge with employment laws; especially in California.” So learning all of that in a second language was tough. Joseph: You would eventually move into the corporate world, working in HR. You successfully secured your role. Out of curiosity, how did you overcome these barriers, the hesitation on the side of headhunters or recruiters or hiring managers when they were saying, “Okay. You got the qualifications, but you don’t have the localized experience that we’re looking for.” How did you overcome that? Gisela: [11:04] I think I cried a lot. And then, I went to HR courses that helped me. I bought a lot of books and I did a lot of self-study to the point where my whole house was full of papers. The walls of my house were full of papers, even in my bedroom, all over the place, so I could memorize some of the laws or words that for me were difficult to understand. It was a lot of that through those classes. And then, getting an internship, which at the time was unpaid. So for me, was a setback. Because in Spain, I was much better position. But it was very helpful to get that internship so I could practice, like a real experience. Then, studying aside. Joseph: So a combination of internships, and also your self-study, and scaling up. You were interning at the World Trade Center in San Diego, and then you ended up moving into the recruitment sector for a little bit of time. You would eventually land at Walt Disney Imagineering. How did you land that role? Because that’s obviously a large, well-established company. Just be curious, how did you manage to get your foot in the door with Walt Disney? Gisela: [12:20] Disney was always my first target. Since I was in the U.S., I started believing that could actually be possible for me to get a job there. I submitted close to 30 applications at Disney in the first years. Those applications never got a callback. But eventually, after I started building my experience and temping, which was a huge entrance for me in the U.S. market so I could switch from companies very quickly, learn fast, make an impact fast and every gig was better than the old one, and updating my LinkedIn. And so, after all of that, I received a call from a head-hunter who found me on LinkedIn for a potential two-month opportunity. Thanks, God that I returned that call because they even say it was Disney. It was like an email that didn’t look very appealing. But I always had that sense of curiosity that I thought, “Let me go to find out what this is.” When they said it was Disney, I couldn’t believe it. Joseph: And this was a temporary role initially. Gisela: [13:22] Yes. Joseph: What would you go on to do at Walt Disney Imagineering? I know you were there for just over a year, and then you’d eventually move on to the animation studios. Could you take us through your trajectory there at Walt Disney? Gisela: [13:34] That first call, it was for a temporary position for a very, very specific project. It was to assist the human resources department that was leading the construction of the Disneyland Resort in Shanghai. They interviewed me for that project. After that project ended, then I applied for another role at Imagineering as well in recruiting. And then, I got that role. But all of this, it was still like temporary contracts. I was like a place at Disney by a third party during the time that I was at Imagineering. Joseph: How did you then move from that temporary role into a more full-time role for Walt Disney Animation Studios, and then eventually the Walt Disney Studios? Gisela: [14:15] During that time at Disney, I was like, “I’m loving these. I’m loving this place.” I was just sinking in all the magic. I couldn’t even believe that I was still there after 1 year or like 2 years when it was only going to be two months. So I encouraged myself to, “Okay. Maybe this is possible. Maybe now, I can get a full-time job and be hired at Disney.” And so, at that time, I remember there were limited possibilities because there were not many positions open. But one of them was that I saw an opening at the Walt Disney Animation Studios. I just regularly applied through their portals, and I got an interview with Disney Animation Studios. I remember that I don’t think that I ever, in my life, prepared for anything better and more than I prepared for that interview with animation. Joseph: What do you remember about that interview? Gisela: [15:12] It was many interviews. It was so many interviews. Like one-on-one interviews, but there were also panel interviews with multiple people in the room. And so, those like more towards final stages made me like super nervous. I was like out of my mind with nervousness and anxiety. Joseph: You would eventually become a recruitment and outreach coordinator there at Walt Disney Animation Studios. Then, you became an HR specialist at the Walt Disney Studios. I know this a while back, but what did you like about your life in the corporate world there in the U.S. at the time? Gisela: [15:45] I was thriving in it. I loved all the challenges, and there are always challenges that come with working in corporate and a lot of complexities. But I found myself thriving on it, and I was always so hungry for learning. I always found something that would be fascinating for me, for my own development, and for my own learning. I was very comfortable with the environment, especially working in a creative setting. That was very inspiring for me since I do have a personality that is always also involved in like [unintelligible 16:20], and that was for myself. And so, I felt like I connected well also with that environment at that time. Joseph: Were you thinking that you were going to just stay at Walt Disney? And definitely, did it cross your mind to explore other companies, other opportunities? Where were you at in terms of your professional interests at the time, staying versus exploring something else? Gisela: [16:48] Especially the first years when I was at Disney, I was like, “Would I want to ever go somewhere else?” I could see how easily is to get comfortable. It was a very difficult and a struggle to not attach your personal value or identity. They, in such a big brand, in such a big name. And so, every time that I changed the position at Disney, it was a struggle. For example, leaving animation. It was like, “Am I crazy? I love this place. Why would I leave?” But on the other side, you have that other voice of prioritizing growth at a certain moment in your career and especially in my field, which is very interesting to me, personally, seeing different environments and departments and teams. It was that decision of, “Okay. I’m going to jump,” even though I always thought, “Maybe I’ll regret jumping, but I’m still going to do it.” It was that constant struggle to check in with yourself and then just do it because there is always a different learning on the other side. Joseph: I was giving a talk a few weeks ago, and somebody came up to me after my talk. It was on achieving your career goals. She works at Google and she’s been there for years, I think over a decade. She asked me, is there a problem to stay at a company for a really long time? Like, does that start to look strange from an external standpoint? But I guess, what I was thinking when I heard that question was, sometimes, I myself, feel like if I’ve been doing something for too long, just the duration of time starts to make me wonder if I should do something else. I’ve always just wondered, is that like an unnecessary pressure that we put on ourselves to constantly be pushing forward to the next challenge? Do you have any thoughts? Again, I’m going back to your time as you started to wrap up your time at Walt Disney, and we’ll eventually talk about your most recent role in the moment. Gisela: [18:47] Personal life circumstances also play a huge factor. Maybe the fact that I was a foreigner in a foreign country, without my family over there, maybe that will get me a little bit more impulse than maybe somebody who makes different decisions based on their lives in circumstances or is looking for more stability. They feel like it’s many different factors. But I agree that, sometimes, we just put a lot of pressure on ourselves, and it depends on the discipline as well. There are certain disciplines that once you secure a really good position in a certain industry where maybe those jobs are more limited, maybe it makes sense that the person tends to want to stay longer. But maybe for other disciplines, you could benefit from seeing different environments, that also is a point of decision-making for someone to be jumping around I think. Joseph: How did you make your decision to eventually leave Disney and move on to Getty Images then? Gisela: [19:46] To me, leaving Disney, I felt like Frodo dropping the ring in Mordor. It was very difficult to put down my batch of that company. But I really

Today marks our 100th episode of the Career Relaunch ® podcast!🎉. For the past seven years, we’ve shared the personal stories of people around the world who have reinvented their careers, and today, I’m thrilled to have Anne Tumlinson , CEO of ATI Advisory and founder of Daughterhood , join us again on the show. Anne was the very first guest I interviewed for this show over seven years ago before it even launched, and today, we’re going to talk about how her career and life have evolved since then. She’ll share her reflections on her journey as a founder turned CEO, the complex dynamics of growing your own organization, and the impact changes in her personal life have had on her outlook on life, career, and her own perspectives. During a special Mental Fuel® segment, I’ll summarize my top takeaways from the nearly 100 guests I’ve featured on this show, including a montage of key highlights to help you understand the dynamics, challenges, and upside of changing career paths to pursue work you find truly meaningful. 💡Key Career Change Insights Consistently showing up is half the battle when embarking on any major career endeavor. Your unique collection of gifts, talents, skills, and interests can fuel you to do work you find truly meaningful. You just have to open yourself up to fully tapping into them. Even when you’re building momentum and achieving “success,” still questioning whether you’re completely on the right track is normal. 📒Resources Mentioned In the book Great By Choice by Jim Collins, he describes the 20-mile-march concept. Past Career Relaunch® episodes mentioned: Creating Steady Progress with Anne Tumlinson – episode 3 Deciding What Matters with Bruce Daisley – episode 26 Giving Yourself Room to Explore with Audrey Lemargue – episode 9 Embracing Uncertainty with Stephen Satterfield – episode 15 Setting Realistic Expectations with Chinwe Oneaygoro – episode 59 Creating a New Image with Deepak Shukla – episode 51 Letting Go with Karen Hing – episode 52 Doing What Excites You with Alex Trochut – episode 56 Being Your Own #1 Fan with Sandeep Johal – episode 20 Taking Care of Yourself with Erika Russi – episode 77 🚀Listener Challenge During this episode’s Mental Fuel ® segment, my challenge to you is to decide what choice you feel you could make for your career that you can be proud of. One that you’re confident you can look back on 10 years, 20 years from now, and not regret. What matters most to you right now during this chapter of your life and career? And what step will you take to honor this? 🎧Episode Chapters 00:00:00 – Overview 00:01:07 – Introduction 00:04:53 – Chat with Anne Tumlinson 00:48:39 – Mental Fuel® 00:59:32 – Listener Challenge 00:59:56 – Listener Thank You 01:01:59 – Wrap Up 👤About Anne Tumlinson, Founder & CEO of ATI Advisory and Daughterhood Anne Tumlinson and I have known each other for over 20 years. As one of the very first managers I had after I dropped out of medical school, she played an instrumental role in helping me navigate my first big career transition in my early 20s. She was also the very first person I ever interviewed for this show seven years ago, and she continues to possess a wealth of personal and professional insights that I and many of our listeners have found so useful. She currently advises the nation’s top public and private leaders in healthcare as the Founder and Board Chair of Daughterhood , a non-profit national community that connects family caregivers with each other for support and information. She also serves on the non-profit board for Mary’s Center, an FQHC, and the Board of Directors for Bluestone Physician Services and Harmony @ Home. Anne is a member of the National Academy of Social Insurance and was named an Influencer in Aging by Next Avenue. Anne spent her early career working in government, first in the office of Congressman John Lewis (D-GA) and then at the Office of Management and Budget. She joined the private consulting firm Avalere Health in 2000, growing and leading the firm’s provider practice and developing its first business intelligence product. 💬Did You Enjoy This Episode? Please Let Us Know! Review : I’d also love for you to leave a positive review and rating for the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Spotify , which helps my show reach more people who want to relaunch their careers. Follow : Be sure to follow the Career Relaunch ® podcast on Apple Podcasts , Spotify , Amazon Music , Google Podcasts , Stitcher , or Android to get each new episode on your device automatically. Full instructions . Stay in touch : Follow the Career Relaunch ® podcast on Twitter and Facebook . You can also follow host Joseph Liu on most major social media platforms. Connect with Joseph 💬Comments, Suggestions, or Questions? If you have any lingering thoughts, questions, or topics you would like covered in future episodes, record a voicemail for me right here. I LOVE hearing from listeners! Leave Joseph a Voicemail You can also leave a comment below. Thanks! 🙏🏻Thanks to Vista Social for Supporting the Career Relaunch ® podcast Vista Social is a versatile, time-saving tool to manage all your social media accounts in one place. You can easily create, schedule, optimise, and publish content directly to multiple social media profiles from one simple dashboard. I actually use it myself to manage all my online profiles. 🎵Music Credits Thanks to Reeve for producing the music for this special 100th episode and to Electrocardiogram for composing the Career Relaunch ® podcast theme music. ✍️Interview Transcript Joseph: Well, hello again, Anne. I am very excited to have you back on the Career Relaunch Podcast. Welcome back to the show. Anne: [05:00] Thank you. It’s exciting to be back. Joseph: The last time we spoke was a few weeks ago actually over dinner when I was in D.C., so we did manage to catch up a little bit. Before that, the last time we recorded a conversation between the two of us was way back in 2016. I’m not sure if you remember this, but you were the very first person I interviewed for the show. Anne: [05:24] I do. Joseph: Because the podcast hadn’t even launched. It did eventually launch with your episode being one of the first. Exactly seven years ago in September 2016. Anne: [05:34] It was thrilling because you did such a good job with it, and you made that beautiful illustration. Joseph: You were featured in the trailer , yes. Anne: [05:44] That was pretty neat to see that come to life so creatively. Joseph: Probably, the show may not have happened without you. Just to go back in time. So now, this is now the 100th episode. Anne: [05:54] Wow. Joseph: Yeah. I thought it’d be very fitting to have the very first person I interviewed on the show to come back and to share your story again, just to check in on how things are going. Anne: [06:05] That’s awesome. We’ve really been on this journey together. Joseph: Definitely. This is going to be a little bit of a different chat from other episodes. Because I guess the idea here is for us to have a bit of a conversation about how things are going for you and for me, and seven years after that chat we had back in 2016. At the time, on your end, you had just launched off on your own. You had just begun developing the concept of Daughterhood. You were a solopreneur. And now, you’re a CEO overseeing a whole team at ATI Advisory. For me, I was about three years into running my own business. Beginning my shift from one-on-one coaching to more content creation and public speaking. I wasn’t a father then, I am now. Your kids were living at home. They’re in a completely different phase now. So, a lot of change for both of us. I was hoping that we could organize this chat in the past, present, and future, where you were, what you’ve experienced along the way, and what’s next for you. Maybe you should go first here. Let’s just go back in time. Can you try to mentally transport yourself back to 2016? What do you recall you were focused on at the time? Maybe we should start with the personal. What was your family life like in 2016? What was going on with you personally? And then, we’ll get to the professional in a second. Anne: [07:23] In 2016, I called myself a single mom. I was co-parenting with my ex-husband, so it wasn’t I was in it all by myself. Certainly, I was the head of the household that I live in and the sole earner with two teenage children, 16 and 13. We were looking at colleges for my oldest child. Now, she has made her way all the way through college. She has graduated, and she is fully employed. My youngest is in college. So, I’m in a really different place in parenting. And, I got married in 2018. Joseph: Do I have this right? Your separation had not happened that long before we recorded our episode in 2016? Do I have that right? Anne: [08:15] Yeah. I separated in 2011 and was divorced in 2012. If you’ve never been through anything like that, this may sound weird. If you have, it will ring true. It was a 15-year marriage. It takes a long time to reset from that and get to your new normal. I definitely wasn’t quite in it yet. I was still trying to figure out who I was in the world without a spouse. When you’re married, it’s really hard to imagine just how much your identity starts to absorb being in that partnership. I was like, “Who am I in my personal world, and who am I in my professional world?” In the middle of all that, I quit my job and started my own enterprise, so to speak, which had two parts to it. One was supporting myself through independent consulting, business-to-business. And then, the other was developing this platform. I didn’t really know what it was going to become, but I knew I wanted to start to form a relationship with family caregivers who were taking care of their parents and have an interchange of ideas across this transom. That’s them in their day-to-day experiences, and me with my expertise, and for people who are listing my expertise as in aging and health policy. Joseph: How did you get interested in this aging topic? I know we haven’t talked a lot about your own parents that much. I am curious how did this end up being your focus. Anne: [09:56] It’s so funny you asked that question. Just as a quick aside, my kids are now in their 20s. They and their friends are all in the very beginning stages of, “What do I want to do with my life?” I have a lot of 20-somethings standing in my kitchen. One of them was there last night at 11 o’clock, asking me. He’s pre-med. He’s like, “How did you end up here, in doing what you’re doing?” They’re always interested in that story. He just asked me that last night. I was always drawn to the phase of life that is the last phase of life. I can’t explain why. Even as an undergraduate, I did my work or my psychology undergraduate degree on the last phase of life and aging. And then, my very first job out of college was on Capitol Hill working as a congressional aid to Congressman John Lewis from Atlanta, Georgia, who was on the Aging Committee and then on a health subcommittee. And so, I was able to jump right into that and I loved it. I love policy because I like the challenge of all of the different systemic parts and how do you think about systems. I also really like, in reason I started Daughterhood was because I felt I was missing that — you can’t really work on a system we don’t understand how it’s affecting people on the ground, on a day-to-day basis. Joseph, you were right there with me in 2014, when I was going through all of this. Just really in the heart of the struggle, so to speak. You held my hand and walked me across the bridge into entrepreneurship. Joseph: I remember that. That was a surreal moment for me. For people who don’t know this, you were my manager actually. You’re one of my very first managers I think, in full-time employment for me. This is after I dropped out of medical school. I was trying to figure out my life. I was one of those kids “who were kind of in your kitchen,” who was trying to figure out what to do next. Anne: [12:11] Yeah. Joseph: And then, we started working together professionally when I was a coach. I had just started off in 2013, so about a year into that. You’re one of my first clients, which was weird. Anne: [12:24] I know. Joseph: Kind of flip for me to be in the role of coach for who had been one of my coaches early on. That was really rewarding and really just a special, unique relationship I think that we’ve had. Anne: [12:41] It is. It was for me as well. The second we started to talk, you’d call me I think just to let me know. I was like, “Oh. Oh, this is what I need. Could you help me?” Joseph: I remember sitting in your office when I was your direct report in Washington, D.C. I remember you telling me about your kids at the time. This one, I was in my early 20s. And so, another major change I think for you, Anne, was in 2016, both your kids were at home. Anne: [13:13] Yeah. Now, they’ve grown up. Joseph: Where are they now, and how has that change been for you? Anne: [13:19] In 2016, my oldest was just looking at colleges. And now, she’s fully graduated from college and is in her first professional role working at the National Institutes for Mental Health, doing work she really likes. That’s a small miracle really, when you think about how hard it is to find work right out of college. She actually still lives with me because she’s saving money. All good Gen Z’ers have to do I think in this day and age. And then, my son is a rising junior at Emory University. He lives there or he’s getting ready to go on foreign study. My house feels full right now because it’s the summer and he’s home. And so, even though they’re here though, my relationship with them is completely different because they’re adults. I still see them. We spend time together. But, I only get involved in their lives when they ask me to. That’s drawing all these new boundaries, trying to figure out the relationship, and how to be a parent to an adult, that has been mind-blowing. Joseph: That must be surreal. I’ve got a 5-year-old daughter, coming up on 6. So, I guess roughly maybe the age of Grace when you and I worked together in D.C. I’ve always been curious what’s it like the day after, in your case, both of your kids are off to college and your house is empty. Do you remember that day? Anne: [14:52] Yeah. I had a much tougher time when my oldest left. Because that was the moment when I was going from one phase of life to another. When my son left, I felt more prepared for it. Honestly, I enjoyed it. I got remarried in 2018. Just about the time that my son — he lived here for a couple of years after I got remarried, and then he went off to college. So, it was enjoyable for me to be able to be in my home alone with my new husband. There was a lot of relationships still to discover and enjoy, getting to know each other in that environment. That was a nice distraction from having the bittersweetness of watching your children leave you, which is what they’re supposed to do, but it is still — bittersweet is the only word I can think of to describe it. It’s an incredible privilege to watch them go out. It’s thrilling to watch them go discover themselves, and go through all of the exciting things that they get to go through as young adults out in the world but it is also heartbreaking because your relationship with them is not the same. They don’t need you as much. The intimacy is to a certain extent diminished. That beautiful intimacy that you have with a 5-year-old, where you’re in there still in that magical, that 5-year-old is still in the world of magic. Joseph: Yes. Anne: [16:36] I will say this for all of you who have youngsters is that, what helped me a lot was that I had no regrets. I had worked very hard and I devoted myself a lot to my career. I also really had done everything I wanted to do with my children. I read all the books. We went on all the trips. We had all of the movie nights and the popcorn nights. I felt, as sad as I was, there wasn’t anything that I could have done differently to have gotten any less sad. Joseph: I know. Anne: [17:17] Life is just full of these, as now that I’m 56, just full of these transitions after transition after transition after transition. Just when you think something is one way, it changes. One other fact that in these last seven years is that also my parents went from being incredibly independent to my father getting very sick and died. And now, my mom is in her 80s and living in an independent living community. My kids are transitioning. My parents are transitioning. My business was transitioning. So, not boring. Joseph: I know that there’s a lot in there to unpack. I mean, this is a career show, so I would be interested in — Anne: [17:58] Yes. Joseph: Before we talk about the evolution of everything that’s happened to you over time, can you remember in 2016 just factoring in everything you just mentioned about the difference that was happening? Your kids are getting older, you have come out of one relationship, you’re just starting your business. What were some of your biggest concerns at the time? If you can remember back to 2016. Anne: [18:21] I was just concerned about paying the bills. That’s not the only one, but I think one of my primary concerns was money, just money. I was scared. I didn’t have any visibility into whether or not the business would be there. Maybe there’d be three or four months. Anybody who’s done consulting knows how this is, or professional services of any kind. You will have this onslaught of work. If you’re on your own, you have to do it all yourself. And then, all of a sudden, there won’t be any work. Instead of just enjoying the moment of break, you’re worrying. Joseph: You’re panicked. Anne: [19:03] About where that business is. You’re either freaking out because you worry about execution risk, or you’re freaking out because you’re worrying about whether or not there’s enough business. By the way, that has not changed. Joseph: Right. I think that does happen. Anne: [19:19] I’m still there. Joseph: I still have that a lot. I’m now a decade into doing this work. I wouldn’t say it keeps me up at night, but I definitely have this productive paranoia. I don’t even know if it’s productive. Sometimes, this is unproductive paranoia about what would happen if all the clients I now work with, what if they all went away, which a version of that happened to me in 2020 with speaking engagements. And so, I think as a business owner, you never take for granted, the business that you do have coming in. One thing I know that has really changed for you since we spoke was, at the time, you were a solopreneur and you’re, as you described, thinking where the next client’s going to come from. And now, you have a team of over 20, I think. Is it like 20? Anne: [20:04] Thirty. Joseph: Thirty now. Okay. You got 30 people you’re managing, whom you’ve hired. How did you make that decision? At what point did you feel like, “I need to bring somebody on”? Anne: [20:17] I was doing a lot of work that I am actually not that good at or efficient. I felt like wasn’t great service to the client. So, they’re paying me a rate that is encompassing of all of my expertise and my time in the planet, and I’m spending hours dealing with the spreadsheet or a PowerPoint slide deck. I contemplated a couple different models, it’s not uncommon to contract some of those things out through a 1099 relationship, or a contracting relationship. But, to get the constancy and consistency in service and delivery, I wasn’t that I thought, “Oh, this has to grow by some amount.” It was more that I felt if I didn’t do that, I was always going to be in a a scarcity mindset. I don’t want to be in a scarcity mindset. I want to be in a, “We have plenty of resources. We can do this. We’ve got what we need.” And so, there’s also the serendipity of their own. Then, there’s this person who is looking for a

Think for a moment about the original blueprint you once had for your career. What did you want to be when you grew up? How did you envision your life would look? And what has your actual experience been like? If you’re like most people I cross paths with, your career trajectory has been very different from what you imagined. Your ability to roll with the punches and absorb the shocks that inevitably come up along the way of any professional journey can make a huge difference to where you end up. Broadway musical star turned web engineer Carla Stickler explains how she managed to balance multiple career endeavors while pivoting into a brand new industry on episode 99 of the Career Relaunch® podcast. In the Mental Fuel® segment, I’ll also explain how to embrace and manage the inevitable messiness of career transitions. Key Career Change Insights Sometimes, you can just tell when you’re excelling and making the most of your strengths in your career. The more positive feedback you get from others, the more this reinforces the fact you’re on the right track. You never know when you’re going to turn a corner in your career. With enough patience and persistence, you may eventually have your big breakthrough. Think of your first job in a new sector as an opportunity to clarify exactly which aspects of this new work appeal to you and aligns best with your interests. When you’re considering opportunities that may feel like a reach, instead of just saying, “why me?” try saying, “why NOT me?” Resources Mentioned Carla mentioned a couple of resources to help people learn coding including Freecodecamp.org , the Grace Hopper bootcamp , and the Flatiron School bootcamp that episode 77 guest Erika Russi joined. Listener Challenge During this episode’s Mental Fuel ® segment, I challenged you to identify one area in your career where your desire for the ideal set of circumstances may be resulting in procrastination and getting in the way of you starting the next chapter in your career. Are you still waiting or the perfect solution to come to you? Are you waiting until the moment when you feel completely ready to take a plunge into something new? Try and accept that pivots are imperfect and imprecise. Acknowledge that there may be no perfect time to make your move. Understand you may never have 100% clarity on exactly what you want to do next. And understand that the biggest challenge is not tackling but rather accepting the uncertainty of it all. Rather than getting stuck in a state of inaction and paralysis, just do your best to just take one action that creates some progress in the face of this uncertainty. Episode Chapters 00:00:00 – Overview 00:01:07 – Introduction 00:03:00 – Chat with Carla Stickler 00:45:54 – Mental Fuel 00:52:59 – Listener Challenge 00:53:24 – Wrap Up About Carla Stickler, Broadway Star Turned Web Engineer Carla Stickler is a Web Engineer at Spotify with over a decade of performing in musicals under her belt. She is best known for her performance as Elphaba in Wicked on Broadway and has performed her own cabaret as a guest entertainer onboard Norwegian and Disney Cruise Lines. With a BFA in acting from NYU-Tisch and masters degree in theater education from NYU-Steinhardt, she was a voice teacher in New York City and made appearances as a teaching artist and guest speaker at Thespian Festivals around the country. Carla is passionate about reframing the narrative of the “starving artist” and encourages young artists to take agency over their careers by developing skills that can provide them with financial stability alongside their artistic journey. She’s also involved with Artists Who Code , a growing group of artists exploring the world of tech, where she mentors other artists as they are beginning their journey into tech. Find out more about Carla by listening to this episode of NPR’s Up First podcast (where I first heard about her), reading this HuffPost interview featuring Carla, or checking out this NPR interview she did with Scott Simon. Did You Enjoy This Episode? Please Let Us Know! Review : I’d also love for you to leave a positive review and rating for the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Spotify , which helps my show reach more people who want to relaunch their careers. Follow : Be sure to follow the Career Relaunch ® podcast on Apple Podcasts , Spotify , Amazon Music , Google Podcasts , Stitcher , or Android to get each new episode on your device automatically. Full instructions . Stay in touch : Follow the Career Relaunch ® podcast on Twitter and Facebook . You can also follow host Joseph Liu on most major social media platforms. Connect with Joseph Comments, Suggestions, or Questions? If you have any lingering thoughts, questions, or topics you would like covered in future episodes, record a voicemail for me right here. I LOVE hearing from listeners! Leave Joseph a Voicemail You can also leave a comment below. Thanks! Thanks to Harmoni for Supporting the Career Relaunch® podcast Thanks to Harmoni Design for supporting this episode of the Career Relaunch ® podcast. The Harmoni Standing Desk offers a smarter, healthier way to work with its simple design that fits into any workspace. It’s the standing desk I’ve used myself for years, and Career Relaunch® podcast listeners can get 15% off any Harmoni order by visiting CareerRelaunch.net/Harmoni and using discount code RELAUNCH when you check out. Interview Segment Music Credits Podington Bear – Pulsars Isobel O’Connor – King of Forest Green Podington Bear – Tweedlebugs Podington Bear – Turqoise Podington Bear – Raw Umber Bio Unit – Idiophone Lama House – Oceans and Infinity Orbit – Corbyn Kites Interview Transcript Joseph: Well, welcome to the Career Relaunch ® podcast, Carla. It is great to have you on the show. I’m so excited to talk with you today. Carla: [03:07] Thanks so much for having me. I can’t wait to get into it. Joseph: All right. Well, let’s talk about, first of all, what has been keeping you busy at this moment, in your career and also your life. Carla: [03:18] Well, at this very moment, the thing that is keeping me the busiest is I recently started a new job. Almost, I’m like a month and a half in now at Spotify. And so, that is what has been keeping me the most busy right now. Just trying to like to learn everything, figure out the code base, and figure out what I’m doing. Joseph: You are a web engineer there, is that correct? Carla: [03:41] Yes, that’s correct. Joseph: Without getting into specifics on the projects you’re working on, can you give me a sense of exactly what a web engineer does at Spotify? Carla: [03:53] Like most people know, they have the app on their phone, that would be our mobile engineers who work on the app that you probably use daily. I work on the website of the podcast side of things. So, I work on the web being what you see on your computer when you’re using the podcast part of Spotify. I work on the front end, so I work on what you see; not the back end, not the data, not all the stuff that makes everything run. Joseph: Very interesting. Well, that front-end user experience is, obviously, really important to the success of Spotify over the years. As a user myself, I certainly appreciate the incremental improvements and changes to the app made over time. What about personally, what’s been occupying your time outside of work? Carla: [04:40] I love that Spotify has a great respect for work-life balance. So, I do take advantage of my personal time. The one thing that has been occupying all of my time, and I’m going to dive right in and get real personal. My husband and I have been doing fertility treatments now for almost two years. We are coming to a close with them very soon. That has just been kind of occupying all of the other space in my life. Joseph: I can imagine that. It’s one of those things that many people don’t talk about. But then, if you start to ask around with friends, you start to realize a lot of people are dealing with this when you have no idea that they were dealing with it on top of everything else they have going on. I know it can be a very intensive process. Carla: [05:27] Absolutely. Joseph: Okay. Well, let’s talk a little bit about your former life. You haven’t always been a web engineer at Spotify. I’m going to want to talk with you at some point about how you ended up in this very different industry from what you were doing before, which is you used to be a performer on Broadway. Before we get into the details of the shows that you were in, can you just take me back to your childhood and how you came to this idea that you wanted to perform? Carla: [05:59] I grew up in a very musical family. My mother was a classical pianist, who was obsessed with Stephen Sondheim in musical theater. My grandmother was an opera singer, who had a voice studio downtown at the Fine Arts Building here in Chicago. My father was in a — there were five of them. They were called “Stuck in the ’50s,” and they sing doo-wop in my hometown. Joseph: Wow. Okay. Carla: [06:24] I just grew up in it. Just everybody in my family was in music. So, it made sense that that was kind of what I was going to do. I was in a choir at a young age. I was encouraged to pursue the things that I wanted to do artistically. I went to summer camp up at Interlochen Arts Camp up in northern Michigan in Traverse City for all my summers of high school. I ended up going there for my senior year of high school. It was kind of this thing where I was just on this path. There’s a lot of momentum around doing theater and music, just non-stop. I didn’t have a lot of other things that I did. I was very focused on music here. Joseph: Were you thinking that you were eventually going to do this professionally at the time? Was that the plan? Carla: [07:09] I went back and forth when I was younger. I wasn’t sure if I wanted to do a musical theater, or if I wanted to be an opera singer. I ended up going to college, my freshman year of college at Cincinnati Conservatory of Music, to study opera. I was like, “I want to be just like my grandma. I want to sing opera.” That was kind of the plan. My freshman year ended up having a little bit of a setback. I had to have surgery on my vocal cords after finding out I had a vocal cyst. I dropped out of school after a year. I went home to Chicago. I worked in a deli for a semester and was just kind of stuck trying to figure out what I was going to do next. At that point, I decided to do just acting. So, I went to NYU and I studied just theater, and I didn’t sing for three years. At one point, I had a teacher who was like, “Why aren’t you singing?” I was a very emotional child, so I was like, “I don’t know. I don’t know what I’m doing in my life. I think I want to be an actor. I’m very confused.” They taught me how to belt and I learned how to kind of just re-imagine what my voice could be. That for me, was I would say kind of the first time in my life I learned how to kind of pivot and how to reframe what I wanted to do, and realized that I could kind of have a little more power over who I am. So, I learned how to belt and things just kind of took off. Like, I was like, “Oh, this works. This makes sense. I’m good at this.” And then, I just kind of fell into it. Then after graduation, I got an agent and I started working immediately. Joseph: Yeah. One of the things I’ve always wondered about, Carla, is how does one know whether they’re pretty good at singing and maybe above average versus being like top-tier Broadway material? At what point does that become more obvious to you? Carla: [09:01] You feel it. You feel the response that you’re getting from other people. You feel the way that you feel while you’re doing it. Once I learned how to belt, which is the thing that I did in my Broadway career. I’m a Broadway belter. Once I learned how to do that, I just remember it feeling so weird, but it just felt really good. It felt right, and I was getting positive responses for my teachers, things just kind of started snowballing and falling into place. I don’t think we always get to make the decision, but I was getting all this really good feedback. So, I was like, “Oh, yes. I’m going to follow this.” And, that’s kind of what I tend to do. I’m like, I choose something, and if I’m getting positive responses, I tend to follow that path, until I don’t. Either decide I don’t want to do it anymore, or I decided I wanted something else. Joseph: So, you get an agent. What was one of the first roles you ended up landing? Carla: [09:59] The first big job I got right out of college, I ended up playing Liesel in “The Sound of Music” in Asia. I was like 19, or no, I was 20. When I graduated, 22. I was 22. I went to Hong Kong for like four months and played Liesel, the oldest daughter. The “16 Going On 17.” Joseph: Yeah, I remember. Carla: [10:22] It was so much fun. I just like had the best time. We were famous in Hong Kong. Our pictures were on billboards. Everywhere we went, everyone knew who we were. It was very, very fun. Joseph: How long were you doing that before you ended up moving on to your next role? Carla: [10:38] That was a four or five-month gig. When it ended, I didn’t work for a year after that. I had a really big kind of reality check. I had been fortunate to book that, but I still wasn’t a union actor. It was overseas, so it wasn’t a union gig. I was struggling to be seen. Even though I had an agent, it was really hard for me to get in the door. And so, the only thing that I knew how to do was take classes so I could meet people. I took a bunch of musical theater classes. I started taking dance classes all the time. I started waiting in long lines to audition first off because I wasn’t union. Every time I would get an audition for my agent, I would get a coach and I would work hard on it. Because my goal was just to get my union card so that I could audition easier. I didn’t study musical theater in college. So, that year was my education in musical theater that I really kind of crammed myself while waiting a lot of tables, bartending, and doing a lot of other things to make money so I could live in New York. Joseph: I’ve always wondered because you always hear these stories about people who eventually end up on Broadway or who are on Broadway, and they’re waiting tables, or they’re doing these other sort of blue-collar jobs. Did you have like a time limit in mind for yourself before you would maybe move on to something else? Because I would imagine it takes a little bit of time to gain some traction in this very competitive industry. Carla: [12:00] Funny that you asked that because I haven’t thought about this in a while. But, right at the end of that year, I was two seconds away from quitting. I was so over it. I hated waiting tables. Nothing was happening. I remember the guy that I was dating at that time, we had taken a trip to California and we were out at the beach. We’re like, “Maybe we should just move to the beach, and wait tables, or like open our own theater company. I don’t know.” We were about to just like leave New York. I was just so fed up with that whole year. It had been frustrating and hard. Literally, while we were on that trip, my agent called. They’re like, “Can you be in New York in two days? You have a final callback for ‘Mamma Mia’ for the national tour.” I was like, “Okay.” I had been in for the show a few times at that point. And so, I flew back. I got a terrible cold. I had probably what I thought was one of the worst auditions of my life. And then, two days later, I found out I booked it and had to go out on tour a week later. When you were kind of like, “How do you know you’re doing well?” I always take it, it’s like little science. I’m like, “Well, I guess I am supposed to do this.” So, my plans of quitting kind of got put on hold. I was like, “All right. I’m going to go on tour. See? The universe is spoken. I’m supposed to do this. I’m not supposed to quit.” So, I just kind of kept doing that. I went on tour then for about a year and a half with “Mamma Mia.” Joseph: So, you’re in “Mamma Mia,” huge show, very well-known around the world. You would eventually end up getting cast in “The Wicked” musical. How did that all transpire for you? Carla: [13:27] I’ve literally done three large shows in the entirety of my career because I was really fortunate that I got into kind of these long-running shows. I did “Mamma Mia” for about a year and a half. And then, I left to go get married the first time. I was a vacation cover for that company then for the rest of that year and a half. I would fly out to the tour and I would cover for a couple of months. At the beginning of 2010, I ended up booking “Wicked.” And so then, I went on tour with that for three years. And then, back to New York. And then, I was in New York for the rest of the time. Joseph: Just going through this one step at a time, what was your role during those first years with “Wicked”? Carla: [14:06] From 2010 through 2011, I was the understudy for Elphaba. Which means, I was in the ensemble, eight shows a week, and I was the second cover. So, in “Wicked,” Elphaba has a standby and an understudy. The standby is an off-stage cover. They’re the first person to go on. They’re on a principal contract. They will always perform the role of Elphaba if the lead role cannot go on; the lead person who plays that role. The understudy only goes on if the other two people cannot go on. You’re in the ensemble eight times a week. You understood you’ve rehearsed the role, and you have no idea when you’re going to go on for the role. I did that for two years. And then, I did the standby role for a year on the tour. And then, after I left that, I moved into the Broadway company to go back into the understudy role. I was the understudy for the entirety of the time that I was there on Broadway. I would occasionally go in as a swing contract because I would cover a bunch of other things. But, I was always understudying Elphaba. Joseph: Elphaba, for those people who are not familiar with the show — I have seen the show. She’s the lead role. Carla: [15:17] She’s the green one. Joseph: She’s the green witch and lead role in a huge, huge musical. As the understudy, what are you doing during the show? Because you’re saying you’re on standby. You are literally waiting backstage. Carla: [15:34] It would depend. If I was the standby, I would be off-stage. I would just be kind of hanging out when I was on tour. When I was the standby, I had an Etsy store and I made bracelets backstage because I had nothing else to do. I guess I was fortunate that I performed the role a lot while I was on tour. We just happened to be in places where some of the girls that I covered maybe had allergies or whatever was happening with them. So, I got to perform the role a lot while I was on tour. As an understudy though, you’re in the show eight shows a week. So, you’re in the ensemble so there’s no time to do anything else. That standby role is my favorite thing to do ever. It’s like the perfect role. Maybe you play Elphaba once or twice a week, and then you just get to do whatever you want the rest of the week. You have to be at the theater to do that. That’s the coveted get. In my opinion, that is the perfect job. Joseph: Could you give us a sense of how much of this you were doing each week? You said you’ve got, obviously, got multiple shows a week. How many shows are we talking about every single week? Carla: [16:33] Eight shows a week. Joseph: I’m assuming if you’re playing the role of Elphaba, you’re in heels, you’re wearing a wig, you’re in full dress. Does that take its toll on you after? Well, I’m just trying to imagine delivering that level of energy every single night. Whether you’re in the ensemble or if you’re actually performing the role of Elphaba. Both just require like 100 percent every night. What’s that like? Carla: [16:57] I found my ensemble role to be hard on

If you’re like most people I cross paths with out there, talking about your accomplishments or showcasing your achievements may not come that naturally to you. Communicating your successes can feel like you’re bragging or shamelessly self-promoting. Asking for what you want can feel intrusive or presumptuous. And just sharing your own accomplishments with others can feel awkward or forced. At the same time, if you don’t advocate for yourself, you run the risk of disappearing into the background. If you don’t drive visibility for your work, no one may be aware of your accomplishments. And if you don’t ask for what you want, opportunities are unlikely to just fall into your lap. In episode 98 of the Career Relaunch ® podcast, Claudia Bruce-Quartey , a political scientist turned key account manager shares her thoughts on why making a career change often involves a leap of faith and why you have to be the one to advocate for what you want. I also share some thoughts on how I manage the delicate balance between modesty and self-advocacy during the Mental Fuel ® segment. Key Career Change Insights Focus on the things you can control, not those you cannot. Sometimes, you just have to take a leap of faith in your career and jump. The onus is on you to make yourself seen and heard in your career. Listener Challenge During this episode’s Mental Fuel ® segment, my challenge to you is to pick one aspect of your work that you feel deserves more support . . . and to advocate for it. Maybe it’s a project you feel deserves more visibility within your organization. Or an overdue promotion you feel is worth getting onto your manager’s radar. Or a piece of career news you’ve been keeping to yourself but want to share with your network. Whatever it is, take ownership of your career and proactively promote it. If you don’t advocate for it, you can be sure others won’t either. And you might just be surprised how people respond. Episode Chapters 00:00:00 Overview 00:01:07 Introduction 00:03:44 Discussion with Claudia Bruce-Quartey 00:42:38 Mental Fuel 00:48:45 Listener Challenge 00:49:25 Wrap Up About Claudia Bruce-Quartey Claudia Bruce-Quartey has followed a career path that’s required self-advocacy throughout. Raised in Germany as a first-generation immigrant after her parents moved there from Ghana, Claudia eventually completed her Master’s Degree in Public Administration in France and most recently relocated to Switzerland. Originally a political scientist with no knowledge of IT, Claudia’s now a Key Account Manager for the software company Red Hat. She also passionately works with underrepresented youth and female professionals to help them confidently speak about their accomplishments and ask for what they want in their careers. With over 8 years of experience in the Swiss Tech industry, Claudia describes herself as an agent for transformation, on a mission to create equal representation and opportunities. She’s also the author of the book My Hair, My Choice , a book that encourages young children to understand that being unique and different is great. Follow Claudia on LinkedIn and Instagram . Join her newsletter to access that worksheet she mentioned during our conversation and learn more about how to cultivate confidence at work. Did You Enjoy This Episode? Please Let Us Know! Review : I’d also love for you to leave a positive review and rating for the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Spotify , which helps my show reach more people who want to relaunch their careers. Follow : Be sure to follow the Career Relaunch ® podcast on Apple Podcasts , Spotify , Amazon Music , Google Podcasts , Stitcher , or Android to get each new episode on your device automatically. Full instructions . Stay in touch : Follow the Career Relaunch ® podcast on Twitter and Facebook . You can also follow host Joseph Liu on most major social media platforms. Connect with Joseph Comments, Suggestions, or Questions? If you have any lingering thoughts, questions, or topics you would like covered in future episodes, record a voicemail for me right here. I LOVE hearing from listeners! Leave Joseph a Voicemail You can also leave a comment below. Thanks! Thanks to Grammarly for Supporting Career Relaunch The Grammarly app finds and corrects spelling and grammar mistakes to make your writing more clear and concise, leveraging AI to make suggestions based on your context and preferred writing style. I use it nearly every day myself across all my desktop applications, Office documents, and mobile device. Download Grammarly for free at CareerRelaunch.net/Grammarly . Interview Segment Music Credits Bio Unit – Fairground Podington Bear – Floating in Space Podington Bear – Three Colors Podington Bear – Big Blue Podington Bear – Sunbeam Podington Bear – Sidecar Bio Unit – Docking Episode’s Interview Transcript Joseph: Hello, Claudia. Welcome to the Career Relaunch Podcast. It is so great to talk to you on this show. Claudia: [03:50] Hi, Joseph. Thank you so much for having me. Joseph: Okay. Well, let’s get started by first of all talking about what you have been focused on at this moment, in both your personal and professional life. What’s been keeping you busy? Claudia: [04:04] My children. First and foremost, I’m a mother. I’m a mother of two. We are about to head into the big summer break. This is what’s keeping me busy. Also, preparing everything at work in order to make the transition to holidays as smooth as possible. I am a key count manager working for a major open-source software company in Switzerland, and this is kind of my main job. Secondly, I help women advocate for themselves. That’s what I do passionately and I love doing that. So, these are the three key things that are keeping me busy. If not, it’s summertime, I love going out with my bike. Joseph: Sounds good. Let’s take those one at a time here. You said mother of two, you got summer vacation coming up. How do you balance your ongoing demands as a key account manager there at Red Hat? With idea that I’m assuming, your kids are not going to be in school most of the day. How do you balance that on a practical and personal level? Claudia: [05:02] I think the key word here is flexibility. And then, my partner, of course, helps me out a lot with regard to how we manage our schedules. The key part here is really flexibility. Being able to do remote. The pandemic has done us, actually somehow, a great favor in understanding that you can do your most effective work without having to be on-site every single time. That’s one thing. And then, setting the expectations with customers, but also at home, and setting boundaries. I think this is the most important part. Joseph: Before we go back into your past, can you also explain just a little bit about what you do as a key account manager for Red Hat? What’s your day-to-day look like? Claudia: [05:49] The easiest part to say is that I work in sales. I’m a key account manager. As a key account manager, my day-to-day job consists of helping customers through digital transformation. Every customer today needs to be at the forefront of innovation, at the forefront of their competition, and be successful. That is through tech and through IT. My job as a key account manager is that I support roughly about six accounts on this transformation with the solution to their open-source solution that provides. The easiest way to understand is that everything that happens in the background. When things run smoothly, that’s how Red Hat provides its services. When something breaks, you know where to find us. That’s the easiest way to describe it. Joseph: Well, I know that you haven’t always been a key account manager for Red Hat. You haven’t always worked in sales. In fact, you are in a very, very different sector before. I would love to hear more about your time working in political science when you started off your career. And then, we can move forward from there. Maybe the best way to start here is just to get an understanding of, how did you get interested in political science originally? Claudia: [07:02] That’s true. I never even anticipated being in sales or being in the tech industry. Everything that had to do with STEM, it was repellent to me. So, when I graduated and then started studying in 2010, for me, naturally, I gravitated towards international organizations, and then also policies. Not per se, being involved in politics. That’s a big misconception for anyone that thinks, “Okay. You’re going to political science to become a politician.” It’s not that. For me, it was really integrating international organizations, being in international relations, the United Nations or European Union, being in one of these institutions. With that being said, there were no sales involved; there was no tech involved or so I thought. That was kind of where I started off and where I really found myself. I thought that this would be my career. Joseph: Now, I was just in Washington, DC last month, Claudia. I used to live and work there many years ago. Have you been to DC before? Claudia: [08:15] I’ve been to DC last year. Joseph: Okay. You’ve been there recently. One of the things you might notice about DC is it’s one of those places where the professional scene is kind of unique compared to other major cities. Because there are people there who certainly work in the more traditional corporate for-profit world, but you’ve got a lot of professionals there. Especially, young professionals — me, including, when I lived there, who are much more focused on the non-profit, governmental, more social policy-type, cause-based organizations. So, that’s what I would describe as a major split in the professional world. Why were you originally drawn to that world, and not initially the more corporate-like, more for-profit side of the professional world? Claudia: [09:05] Some is also part of my heritage. I’m originally from Ghana. I was born and raised in Hanover, Germany. For me, I wanted to create an impact that would either help advance our community or help advance Africa, in general. That’s why also, international relations was so important to me to be able to shape policies or shape programs that would help advance Africa as a whole. More importantly, also Ghana, and then also the Ghanaian community within Hanover. So, that is the reason why I was rather drawn towards that. Also 2010, 2012, there were lots of different programs out there, especially for young people. For me, I was a youth mentor also. Everything and anything around helping the youth out, and with regards to their professional development, with regards to their integration into society, is something I was very, very much drawn to. I wanted to professionalize that. The European Union, at that point in time, first of all, there were not a lot of people that looked like me inside of this organization. So, for me, it was really, “Okay, I can make an impact here with my voice and also with my work.” So, that’s the reason why I was naturally drawn to that. Joseph: How were those early days for you as you were looking for professional opportunities in that space? How did that transpire for you? Claudia: [10:27] Lots of these opportunities come through either connections or just sheer hard work. Because for me, I had different types of opportunities, of course. Lots of them were either very, very short-term or were entry-level positions. For example, I used I lived also in Paris during my studies. At the same time, I was working. I was working for a governmental institution over there. It was very short-lived, number one. It was faced by multiple short-lived opportunities, that’s one thing. Secondly, the pay wasn’t also the best, to be transparent. I was looking at myself and the vision that I had created about myself of what it means to be what I thought would be successful, and that was not it. To have a master’s degree and still be struggling in finding a real proper job and a long-term job. This is kind of also where I was really questioning myself whether or not this is the path that I want to take. Even though I love it, I wasn’t sure whether my love, my passion for the field would sustain me there. Joseph: That’s really interesting, Claudia. One of the things I hear from people as they are either embarking on a new career path or even just the career path they had thought they wanted to go on is sometimes, the going is a bit rough and it’s a bit bumpy. I suppose one of the decisions you have to make is, do I keep trying to make it in this industry or do I walk away and do something else? How did you think about that? How could you tell when you should keep trying and when you should call it quits? Claudia: [12:12] That’s very much a good question because I struggled with that a lot. Because I was looking, “Okay. What are the skills that I can actually apply within this industry or within the field I was working in?” So, I speak five languages. Maybe anything around languages, and could help sort of translation jobs. For example, I was one in more facilitating conferences. So, there are a lot of different areas actually within the field, which is great. The field is very rich. Again, finding these opportunities, at least for me, posts to be a challenge. As I was also growing, and graduating, life caved in. I got married. Also, I had a baby. This is what’s really the turning point for me. To get an understanding is that, “Okay. First, I’m single and I can hustle.” But, with someone else in this world where she depends completely on you, on you to make it happen, things shifted very quickly for me. To me, the turning point was in 2015, when I had been in a position that absolutely had nothing to do with what I had studied. It was an entry-level sales position. I got to the realization, “This cannot be it. There has to be a better way.” To be honest, I didn’t know what this looked like. I certainly didn’t think that it was IT. I just knew something else has to come up for me. Joseph: Let’s talk about the transition that you went through here. Things are taking a little bit longer than maybe you had expected to gain some traction in the political science world. You have gotten married. You’ve got a baby. Now, you’re feeling like the phase of life that you’re in right now might require you to reconsider your career options. Take me through the transition as you went from what was political science to then eventually a sales role. The first question I have about this is, how easy was it for you to let go of the idea of pursuing political science? Claudia: [14:14] That was very difficult. Because I chose political science after having taken a break from my studies for a year. So, when I did my A-Level degree, I went to France for a year to find myself, to find what it is that I want to do. I knew, again, nothing about STEM. I knew the law wouldn’t cut it. Because also in Ghanaian communities, either you become a lawyer, a doctor, or a banker. These are the three career paths that you’re open with. Anything else, we don’t know, so you don’t pursue it. So, I have to find something where I can still become successful, and political science was that field where I could bring so much of my abilities into it. And then, studying it, doing my bachelor’s degree, doing my master’s degree in France, and then not finding a job in which I could thrive, not finding ground in a field that I had studied and had worked in for some time was very tough. I was like, “Now, I’m out of my studies, I need to have a proper job. I need to have a contract.” It was the very basic necessities of, I have a job, I have a contract, there’s a long-term thing and I see myself progressing in that career. I didn’t see that. Then, I was like, “Okay. Will I keep doing things that are not working and dragging my entire family into it? Or, will I start opening up my eyes towards opportunities that are out there?” So, I started then, not randomly, I would say more openly applying to jobs that were outside of my field. Some had the sales component to it but definitely not the role that I’m currently in and the career I’m currently pursuing. Joseph: I know along the way, if I’ve got the timing right here, I’m just going to broadly describe them, as the stop-gap or like transitional hold-yourself-over-for-a-while jobs. Claudia: [16:16] Yes, lots of things. Joseph: Can you give me a sampling of what were some of the other jobs you took just to make ends meet, just to hold you over while you figured this out? Claudia: [16:23] Wait tables. I was a waitress. I was teaching children at some point in time. I did translation jobs along the way. I help people with some administrative work also. It’s really little petty jobs that kept me along the way, that kept me afloat. I was a tour guide for a very, very short amount of time. Joseph: In France? Claudia: [16:48] In France, right. What are the odds, right? I’m from Hanover, Germany. I am Ghanaian. I go to France and became a tour guide. It was a very, very short amount of time. Somebody couldn’t fill the role, so I hopped in. I also promoted flyers. Different kinds of brands and shops and just works outside giving out flyers and promoting flyers. The accumulation of that brought more and more frustration, very much frustration. Because it wasn’t steady. There was no strategy behind it. It was just, “Okay. What am I doing to get to the next paycheck?” To me, that wasn’t it. I just had a much bigger vision about myself and where I wanted to see my family than what I was currently doing. Joseph: How long did that period last for you? Claudia: [17:40] Right after my pregnancy, I think about a year and a half. To me, it was an eternity. Joseph: Yeah. I’ve had those phases in my career also. I have actually waited tables briefly also. I worked in a retail store for a while. It can feel like a very long time, these transitional periods. Even though we’re talking a few months to a year, it can feel like an eternity. You eventually decided to do a masters in France, as I understand it. What did pursuing an advanced degree allow you to do? Claudia: [18:15] In 2010, exactly, I was still pursuing a career in political science. I had not let go of that idea. I thought, “All right. Well, let me have an advanced degree. Let me have it in a foreign country to open up my chance to be considered for roads inside of the European Union, inside of the big NGOs.” Because this was the profile that they were looking for. Somebody that is international, versatile, has done several things and understands the system. To me, it was like, “Oh, great!” It opened up opportunities. Again, being able to work in some of the French institutions, in different cities, in Paris. At the end of the day, it all didn’t help me to really build the career that I was looking for. It helped me today, absolutely. Because I think all of the experiences that I made moving from Germany to France and then coming here to Switzerland, have absolutely helped me. Because I know today, for a fact, that it is my stop in France that helped make the transition to Switzerland very smoothly because I speak French. Joseph: So, how did you eventually make your foray into the tech industry and the sales role? What was the first breakthrough for you in that sector? Claudia: [19:37] There was a program that was being run by Cisco. Cisco, at that point in time, was looking for junior sales representatives. The way it was conveyed to me was, “Hey! Yes, this is a tech industry, but look at all the things that IT touches.” This is where I started to listen up. I was like, “Hey, it’s true.” To me, the perception of tech was you have to code; you have to be a nerd. When I was studying, the people that I saw pursuing anything in tech or engineering were nerds. When they opened up their textbooks, I understood absolutely nothing. This is not the field that I want to be in. But this program was completely different. Th

When you’re not happy with your job, deciding to make a career change may seem more straightforward. However, when things are going well, do you keep riding the wave or make the leap and try something new? In episode 97 of the Career Relaunch ® podcast, Aisling Drennan, a Riverdance Irish dancer turned artist shares her thoughts on shifting from an international stage to an art studio. We’ll discuss the deeply personal choice of when to walk away from an established career, the inevitable challenges of starting anything new, and the importance of championing your own work. I also share some thoughts on when you can tell the time has come to move on during the Mental Fuel ® segment. Key Career Change Insights You can’t know everything from the start. You have to figure it out along the way. It’s about giving yourself time and accepting the inevitable mistakes along the way You can’t be the champion of everything, but you have to be your own champion of your own work and ambition. If making a career change was easy, everyone would be doing it. You have to constantly ask yourself, is this what I want to do? If yes, you must find a way to make this work. Deciding exactly when to leave your job behind is a very personal choice . On the one hand, you could leave on a high note, knowing you may still have left to give and gain. On the other, you could leave after you feel like you’ve given everything you can, although it can result in dissatisfaction, burnout, and even resentment. Expect the early days to be tough. Starting is often the hardest phase when you’re embarking on a new career path. However, if you know you’re doing what you want to do, with enough hard work and tenacity, you’ll turn a corner. Episode Chapters 00:00:00 – Overview 00:01:07 – Introduction 00:03:05 – Discussion with Aisling Drennan 00:45:54 – Mental Fuel 00:51:10 – Listener Challenge 00:51:43 – Wrap Up Listener Challenge During this episode’s Mental Fuel ® segment, I discussed how to decide whether the time has come to pursue another path in your career. Consider whether you have: A) anything else to gain, B) more you could give, C) more you actually want to give. The choice is ultimately yours. I just encourage you to not overextend yourself too much and to walk away once you feel that deep down, the time is right to move on. About Aisling Drennan , Abstract Expressionist Painter Aisling Drennan used to be a former professional Irish dancer with Riverdance , performing internationally for almost a decade with her sketchbook and paint box in her suitcase. Originally from County Clare, Ireland, she dedicated the earlier parts of her life touring around the world, and dancing professionally. However, she eventually began a gradual, steady career transition into the world of art. She’s now a full-time, abstract expressionist painter, balancing her artistic endeavors with motherhood after the birth of her son in early 2022. Based in London, she now creates her artwork at Delta House Studios , where you can check out her paintings along with work from several other artists. Most recently Aisling Drennan’s work was selected for The Royal Cambrian Academy of Art’s annual exhibition (2023) & Gordan Ramsay’s new restaurant in the Savoy Hotel, London (2021). Drennan was an artist in residence at Cill Rialaig Artists Centre (2019), and her work has been shortlisted for the John Moore’s painting prize (2018). She was Fujitsu’s featured artist for a global media campaign (2017) and has received the Freyer Award for excellence in contemporary painting from the Royal Dublin Society of Arts (2011). Drennan has been noted by State magazine as “one to watch” Aisling will be exhibiting her art at The Other Art Fair in London, June 29 – July 2 . To meet her and check out her paintings, stop by to see her there at Stand 92 . Learn more about Aisling , watch her painting in action , and follow her on Instagram . https://youtu.be/RgxqltqRnuU Also, if you’ve never seen Riverdance which recently celebrated its 25th anniversary of touring, this clip gives you a little taste of the show! https://youtu.be/wybiE6Xv_z8 Did You Enjoy This Episode? Please Let Us Know! Review : I’d also love for you to leave a positive review and rating for the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Spotify , which helps my show reach more people who want to relaunch their careers. Follow : Be sure to follow the Career Relaunch ® podcast on Apple Podcasts , Spotify , Amazon Music , Google Podcasts , Stitcher , or Android to get each new episode on your device automatically. Full instructions . Stay in touch : Follow the Career Relaunch ® podcast on Twitter and Facebook . You can also follow host Joseph Liu on most major social media platforms. Connect with Joseph Comments, Suggestions, or Questions? If you have any lingering thoughts, questions, or topics you would like covered in future episodes, record a voicemail for me right here. I LOVE hearing from listeners! Leave Joseph a Voicemail You can also leave a comment below. Thanks! Thanks to Audible for Supporting Career Relaunch Thanks to Audible for supporting this episode of the Career Relaunch ® podcast. Audible is the premier provider of digital audiobooks, offering over 600,000 audiobook titles for listening anytime and anywhere on your favorite device. Career Relaunch ® listeners can download a free audiobook download and get 30-day trial at audibletrial.com/careerrelaunch . Interview Segment Music Credits Bio Unit – Ground Effect Leimoti – Leave a Mark Owen Meyers – Horisont Cora Zea – Velvet Uniform Podington Bear – Sepia Scott Holmes Music – Shimmer Bio Unit – Fairground Howard Harper-Barnes – The Promising Episode Interview Transcript Joseph: Good morning, Aisling. Welcome to the Career Relaunch Podcast. It’s great to have you on the show. I’m really excited to talk with you about your time both as a dancer and also now as an artist. Aisling: [03:17] Good morning, Joseph. I am very pleased to be here chatting with you. It’s always such a pleasure when people have an interest in what I do, so thank you. Joseph: Well, let’s jump into it. Let’s talk, first of all, about what you have been focused on right now in your career and your life. What has been keeping you busy both personally and also professionally? Aisling: [03:37] I’ve just finished a new series of paintings. They were just shown last weekend because I’ve got a studio at Delta House Studios in Cyprus, London. We do open studio events twice a year. One in June, one in October, where everybody can come along, meet the maker, see where the work is made. So, it’s finishing new work for that. It’s been pretty busy. And then, I have a couple of things coming up, career-wise. I’m doing the other art fair at the end of the month. I’ve got a couple of shows lined up for the winter, and a few fun things in between. And then, personally, things are good. I have a one-year-old. It’s keeping me very busy. I suppose I’ve had a big life change of being pregnant and given birth, having a baby, coming back to work, and finding all that balance. It’s been a real roller coaster but in the best way and sort of finding my feet again. I guess you lose your identity a bit, and then you come back into it. I feel like I’ve just come back to finding my identity, getting back into painting, back into the studio, and getting everything moving again. Joseph: Two questions on a couple of things you just mentioned there. First of all, you mentioned you’re a new mother. What have you found to be the biggest challenge around balancing parenting with your work as an artist? Aisling: [04:56] I have my own business. So, if I’m not working on it, nobody else is doing it. I think it was very important to me to get back into the studio and keep things running while I was managing a newborn and everything that comes along with that so much. I think I was probably a wee bit optimistic because I came back to work when my son, Caolàn, was four months old. I thought, “It’d be fine! I’ll do it. It’s grand.” It didn’t really work out like that. I guess that’s one of the things I’ve learned that your time is no longer just your time. Your time has to be shared and prioritize with him. As we, my husband and I, have moved along, because he has his own business as well, we’ve managed to juggle. Actually, that’s a real good thing about each of us having our own business. We’re not set to somebody else’s time. It’s purely our time so we can manage things around the baby, which is quite good. That, and I think the identity thing, which I wasn’t prepared for because you step into a whole new pair of shoes being a mother and you get lost in that because you’re learning so much. And then, you come back into your work, which I love what I do. I’ve really worked hard to get to where I am. And then, you have to find it all again. You have to find yourself. It’s sort of an interesting new path. Like, I’m the same person but I’m different. I’m still finding my way around that. Joseph: It is a challenge flipping back and forth between your identity as a mother, and also your identity as a professional. And, being able to go back and forth multiple times within the same day can be quite jarring. Aisling: [06:37] Quite jarring. I think it’s all because this is like my studio, and my painting, my art practice is my — I don’t want to say my “other child,” that sounds the wrong thing. But, it’s not like I’m going to work for somebody else. This is very much mine. It’s all that more important to me. It keeps moving, and progressing, and developing. I think in the long term, that’s going to be such a good lesson for Caolàn as he grows up and he sees what me and his dad do. Because my husband’s an architect, so he has his own practice as well in his own studio. I think it’ll all be good but we’re just finding our way, which is exciting as well. I mean, look, this is the essence of life, isn’t it? You just figure it all out as you go. Joseph: Well, I want to get back into also your professional life here. I know you mentioned you’re an artist. What kind of artist are you, and what do you enjoy doing as an artist? Aisling: [07:26] I am an abstract expressionist painter. My work would be rooted in the materiality of paint. That would mean just literally getting stuck into the wonderful nuances of paint, and what you can do with it, and how you can play with it, and manipulate it. I won an Irish residency in 2019 that completely changed the direction of my work. All my work is now based on rock landscapes, extracting from those spaces. These are landscapes back in Ireland. Obviously, I’m from Ireland. You can tell from my accent. I go and sit on-site and make studies and bring them back into my studio here in London, and literally, abstract from them. It’s a very processed way of working. Because I’ve just finished this new series of work, I’m still finding my feet with discussing it, which is a weird thing. Because you think of it all visually in your head, and then you have to vocalize that when you’re talking about it, so it’s an ongoing thing. Joseph: I think art is probably one of the hardest things to describe in words to others. Just by definition, it is difficult to put into words. Aisling: [08:34] Yeah. Well, that’s why like what I mentioned at the top of the conversation, something like open studios is great. Because you get people coming into your studio, and you see their reaction straight off, or they ask you questions that you may not have considered yourself. It’s a wonderful way to interact with the work and with people and build those relationships. If you’re selling through a gallery, you don’t get that same conversation or connection, let’s say. It was wonderful with this new series of work to have people come in and sort of look at it differently from how I’m looking at it. Joseph: Well, I do want to come back to the commercial dynamics of being an artist. You mentioned gallery versus studio versus art show. I do want to get back into that toward the end of the conversation. Right now, what I’d be very interested in doing is going back in time. Because I know you haven’t always been an abstract expressionist painter. You were once a professional Irish dancer. Can you tell us a little bit about your life as a dancer? I suppose the best place to start here is to talk about where you grew up, and what are some of the things you remember about your childhood growing up in Ireland. Aisling: [09:43] Oh, gosh! I had an amazing childhood in Ireland. I grew up in rural West Coast Ireland. County Clare, North County Clare. Right on the Atlantic Ocean. Just very free, very open, very fresh childhood. Typically, I don’t know if it’s the same now, but growing up in the ’80s Ireland, everyone who went to school there would be an Irish dancing teacher that would come into the school and teach the basics. It was sort of like your physical education in a sense. Both of my parents were dancers. So, they brought my sisters and I along to Irish dancing classes. That’s where it began really. Joseph: Were they professional dancers? Aisling: [10:21] No. It’s the type of thing particularly I think, like where I’m from in Ireland. My parents are both from the west of Ireland as well. Culturally, it will be very normal that like somebody would dance, or somebody would sing, or play an instrument, or something like that. My parents had a hotel and a bar, so there was always music and dancing and something performative going on. You were just always expected to get up and do whatever you were able to do. My parents were both dancers, so there was always dancing in the bar. I just grew up with it very naturally, which is totally normal for that part of Ireland. Then, I started going to Irish dancing classes and started competing. At the time, there was absolutely no sense of being professional. A professional Irish dancer, what is that? No! And then, of course, in 1994, Riverdance arrived on the scene at the Eurovision Song Contest. It just changed the landscape, massively. I was 12 I think when Riverdance was on the Eurovision. I remember watching it with my family because it was such a big thing in Ireland, the Eurovision. “I want to do that. What is it? I want to do it. I want to know more.” Riverdance obviously went international, and they started to audition people. I auditioned when I was 16, and I got in. I left school for a year to go on tour. Joseph: For those not familiar with Riverdance, it’s this big theatrical show that features traditional Irish music and dance. It’s sort of like the quintessential Irish dance show. As I understand it and as you alluded to, it was originally this interval act at Eurovision. And then, it turned into this huge stage show production in the early ’90s. And now, it’s been seen by over something like 25 million people and is considered to be one of the most successful dance productions in the world. So, kind of a phenomenon. Could you just explain the audition process to get in there? Aisling: [12:20] Thinking about the phenomenon of it, for just anyone who’s not aware of it, I think I performed in over 400 cities in 50 countries over all the continents. And that was over so many years. Just literally touring and touring and touring. So, it was big, big, big. The audition process was, it’s something that I still think about now because I learned so much on that day. It was in Dublin. I got the train up with my mum from Limerick up to Dublin. The train broke down on the way up. Of course, I was really stressing because we were going to be late for the audition. My mom rang the dance director and said, “We’re so sorry. The train is broken down.” She said, “Don’t worry. There are other people on the same train. They’re coming, too.” There was me, and I think three or four other girls. We were all late going into the audition because of the train. We walked into this massive dance studio, lined with mirrors, and everyone is dressed in black with their number after auditioning, and we were the last ones to come in. We have to audition in front of hundreds of other girls and boys. I just remember thinking, “Oh, gosh. This is so hard!” I think two of the girls that I auditioned with were champions. One was a champion in the year above me, going back to the competitive side. And, one was the champion of my age group, if I remember correctly. They didn’t both get in. I got in. It was just something that I thought about sort of on reflection that like not everybody can always be the champion. You don’t always win everything. You just have to be your own champion, if that makes sense. It was something that I learned from that process. Because I remember feeling very intimidated going in with champion dancers. I had done quite well competitively, but I hadn’t won major titles or anything like that. I was late going into the audition. It was just like a complete, “Oh, gosh! This is the worst day of my life.” At 16, when everything is so dramatic. Joseph: Of all days, yeah. Aisling: [14:17] Yeah. So, we got in. What happened at the time was, you started doing workshops, which were, oh, my God, unbelievably hard. I remember coming out of them and just not being able to walk. My feet were full of blisters and my legs were killing me. It was just a whole different level of training from what I had had competitively like in my dancing school. And then, what they do is at the time is different now. But, at the time, they would send you out on corporate gigs. I was 16 in school, and I was being flown here and there and everywhere to go and perform at all these very fancy events. And then, sitting back down on a Monday morning, “Well, Aisling, how was your weekend?” “Grand.” I was over dancing at that Golden Globe Awards, and they’re used to just meeting all these people. It was mad, but it was great fun. Joseph: How did that work with school? Because you’re 16. I guess for a normal child who’s not performing, you’d be going to classes every day and do whatever you want on the weekend. How did that work with balancing school and being on tour with this huge company? Aisling: [15:22] I didn’t know. I grew up in a very rural, very small part of Ireland. It’s not like there were a whole lot of other distractions. Do you know what I mean? I used to go to school, and then I would come home and have a snack. I would practice my dancing, and then I would do my homework. That was kind of my day-to-day. And then, I will be competing on the weekends. So now, it was just like, “Oh, I might be doing a gig. Like flying off somewhere to do a gig.” It was just, I don’t know, it just rolled into it. And, I was the youngest of three. Joseph: You have two older sisters, right? Aisling: [15:51] Yeah. I have two older sisters. And, one of my sisters ended up in “World of Dance,” which is like another art practice. Joseph: Oh, another big one, yeah. Aisling: [15:59] For my parents, we were just always busy dancing. It was kind of just, you just do it, don’t you? Joseph: Were you thinking that this is what you were going to do after you finished secondary school? Or, what was running through your head during the early years? We’ll get to the later years in a moment. But, just the early years as a child dancing, what were you thinking? How did you think this was going to go? How did you want it to go for you? Or, did you even think about that? Aisling: [16:25] I’ve always been focused and just knew from a very early age what I wanted to do. I just knew I wanted to get into Riverdance, and then I wanted to go to art school, and that was it. I didn’t want to do anything else. Luckily, it’s worked out that way. Because I know a lot of people, it can take time to find what they want to do and find their place. I was just very focused and just started to put the points in place that I needed to make that happen. Joseph: Was there a reason why you wanted to be dancing as p

Making any major career pivot involves a lot of bravery, risk, and complication. You’re dealing with not only the practicalities of switching career paths but also the insecurities associated with starting over. On Career Relaunch ® podcast episode 96, professional ballerina turned Mooch product designer Rina Takikawa describes what triggered her to walk away from a career that was years in the making and the surprising links you can find between two seemingly unrelated careers. This sort of decision to let go of a dream you once held onto so tightly turns out to be quite a common one amongst the clients, listeners, and audiences I cross paths with in my line of work. Rina and I talk about why people make these brave leaps, what you can do to manage the pivot, and how much you end up learning about yourself when you’re forced to reconsider what truly makes you happy. During today’s Mental Fuel segment, I’ll also share a few of the insecurities I wrestled with when I started over in my own career. Key Career Takeaways Your goals can change over time. When you lose the passion you once had for your career, you owe it to yourself to try and move on. Making the decision to walk away from a lifelong dream is never easy, but if you can manage the complexities of letting go of the investment, you may just end up finding much more career fulfillment. If you look hard enough, you can find the surprising, common threads across your seemingly disparate professional endeavors. Listener Challenge During this episode’s Mental Fuel ® segment, I challenged you to identify, name, and share one of the insecurities you’ve felt recently in your own career so you can identify it when it shows up, accept it, and not allow it to paralyze you. Remember, having doubts doesn’t mean you’ve made the wrong choice for your career. It just means you’re dealing with a common dynamic that emerges when you make any unconventional move. About Rina Takikawa , Ballerina Turned Product Designer Today, I’m speaking with Rina Takikawa , a product designer based in Los Angeles. She’s one of the founding members at Mooch, a fintech startup building a Gen Z budgeting app, where she leads design and product experience. Rina has been featured in press outlets such as Business Insider and Built In and has spoken at the University of Arizona, UX Copenhagen , Ideate Labs , and CareerFoundry among others. Before transitioning into the tech sector, Rina was a professional ballerina for the Ballet de Catalunya in Spain. Follow Rina on LinkedIn , Twitter , Instagram , and her newsletter . Did You Enjoy This Episode? Please Let Us Know! Tweet : If you enjoyed this episode and have a few seconds to spare, Tweet to let me and Rina know ! Tweet a thank you! Review : I’d also love for you to leave a positive review and rating for the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Spotify , which helps my show reach more people who want to relaunch their careers. Follow : Be sure to follow the Career Relaunch ® podcast on Apple Podcasts , Spotify , Amazon Music , Google Podcasts , Stitcher , or Android to automatically get each new episode on your device. Full instructions . Stay in touch : Follow the Career Relaunch ® podcast on Twitter and Facebook . You can also follow host Joseph Liu on most major social media platforms. Connect with Joseph Comments, Suggestions, or Questions? If you have any lingering thoughts, questions, or topics you would like covered on future episodes, record a voicemail for me right here. I LOVE hearing from listeners! Leave Joseph a Voicemail You can also leave a comment below. Thanks! Thanks to BrandYourself for Supporting the Career Relaunch® podcast A2 Hosting offers simple tools and services to help control what people find when they Google you. To clean up, protect, and improve how you look online, visit BrandYourself.com and use promo code ‘RELAUNCH’ to get 50% off a Premium membership. Interview Segment Music Credits Podington Bear- Pives And Flarinet Podington Bear – Puppy Podington Bear – Trillium Leimoti – Leave a Mark Podington Bear – Jetsam Bio Unit – Across the Valley Scott Holmes Music – Ambient Meditation Scott Holmes Music – Life In A Moment Episode Interview Transcript Joseph: Hello, Rina. Welcome to the Career Relaunch Podcast. It is great to have you on the show. Rina: [03:18] Thank you for having me. Very excited to be here today. Joseph: Me, too. Alright. Let’s get started here by, first of all, talking about what you’re up to right now. And then, we’re going to go back in time and talk about your former career. I would love to start off by just finding out what you’ve been focused on recently in both your professional and also your personal life. Rina: [03:39] I am currently a product designer at a financial technology start-up called “Mooch.” We are a budgeting app powered by Blockchain, and we focus on budgeting for Gen Zs. So, we have a big Gen Z community of over 50,000 people. In my personal life, I enjoy participating in speaking events. I’m also focused on writing a newsletter every week. I do content creation here and there as well. I’m just very passionate about overall personal branding and sharing my story. So, that’s a little bit about me. Joseph: Now, as I understand it, Rina, you are a product designer at Mooch. In layman’s terms, explain exactly what does a product designer do? Rina: [04:25] A product designer is focused on the product development of an app. On top of actually designing the actual app, I’m also focused on the partner’s experience using the app. So, I mostly focused on how can we design a seamless experience for these people. So, it’s a little bit in factoring everything about a business and a product and experience, in general. Joseph: Do you also get into user experience? So that UX versus product design, do they overlap? Are they related? Rina: [05:04] That’s basically, the partner experience that I was talking about. It’s essentially user experience. What is the experience like during onboarding, during their sign-up process? What is their experience like using an edit functionality? What does your experience look like creating something on an interface? How does the feature function? Whereas, user interface is more so visual designs. How does the layout work? What do they see on the actual app? Product design is basically a coupling UX and UI together, but also focusing on the actual product division and business goals. Joseph: I know that this is a big part of your life right now and definitely what you’re focused on at this moment. You haven’t always been a product designer in the FinTech space, and this show is all about changing careers. I understand you used to be a professional ballerina. Let’s go back in time and talk about your former life as a ballerina. And then, we can talk about how you transitioned into FinTech. I’d love to go all the way back to the beginning. How did you get interested in ballet? Rina: [06:11] I started ballet when I was 5 years old. I believe the reason why was my aunt was a former ballerina as well. And so, she persuaded my mom to put me in ballet classes. Joseph: This was in New York. Is that right? Is that where you grew up? Rina: [06:30] I grew up in New York, but I was born in Singapore. I actually started my baby ballet classes in Singapore. Joseph: Do you remember those classes? Like, do you have memories of being in? Rina: [06:41] I do! Joseph: What was that like? Did you like them? Did you think it’s different from the other activities you were involved with? Rina: [06:47] Oh, my gosh. Yeah. Lots of great memories there. Very happy memories. I know my parents were quite busy when I was young, so I couldn’t go to ballet classes every week. It was more so like once in three weeks. But, I was always very, very excited for my next ballet class. I remember all the ballet kids would exchange candies after class, and I would bring a whole bag of chocolates, and I would just give them to the other kids. It was very wholesome. Joseph: I can’t remember if I talked with you about this last time, Rina. I’ve got a daughter who’s 5 and 1/2 years old. We took her to baby ballet right down the street. I would take her once a week. It was pre-pandemic. She was going at like the age of 3. We’re not doing it anymore. I guess the question that’s running in my head is, at what point does this go from being kind of like a fun thing to do as a kid to something that became more serious for you. When did that happen? Rina: [07:47 8 to 10, when I first started going to point classes, when I first got my point shoes. It was difficult, but it was a challenge that I was excited about. From there, I was kind of imagining my future already as a ballerina. And then, I moved to New York. The teachers there were also very inspiring. That is the real moment where I was like, “I want to be like my teacher.” My teacher was my biggest role model when I was like 12 years old, all the way up to 20. I remember always looking up to her, always fascinated whenever I see her dance. I’m like, “I want to be like her when I grow up.” That was when I was, “I really want to make it to this ballet world.” Joseph: What does it take to make it in the ballet world? Did that become clearer to you from the start? How do you assess whether you are one of the, I guess, few ballet students that can make it professionally in the world of ballet? Rina: [08:48] Ballet is a very, very competitive industry. There’s a lot of females, so it’s very competitive. All I knew at that age of like when I was trying to plan out my future and kind of break down the steps in order to go professional, is I have to keep being persistent, keep training, go to competitions, get awarded, get scholarships, get exposure to international schools and companies, go to summer intensives, and get exposure from other prestigious schools so that directors can start seeing me. I never once had a summer vacation. I’ve always been training every weekend, every day, every holiday, every summer vacation, “vacation.” I would be at a summer intensive at a different school. You don’t go to college if you are pursuing to be a professional ballerina. Just because if you want to be a professional ballerina, you have to start young. Usually, people aim to sign with the company at the age of 18. Joseph: It sounds like this is the level of commitment that it takes in order to break through in that industry. I know you mentioned school before, so it sounds like your schooling was actually focused on the performing arts. Also, you went to the Frank Sinatra School of the Arts for high school. You eventually would go on to the University of Cincinnati. Is that correct? To do your BFA in ballet. Rina: [10:21] Yes. Joseph: Could you give us a glimpse into your journey as a ballerina, and how that evolved then over time? Going from high school, through doing and studying ballet at the University of Cincinnati. Rina: [10:32] I got accepted to Performing Arts High School in New York. My schedule when I was in high school was a lot of dancing. I would dance in the morning. I would go to education classes. Your regular high school, like English, Math, Science, those things. After those, I would go to rehearsals in school. And then, after rehearsals, I would go to my pre-professional intense training studio and train more there. And then, came the decision to make on whether I should be auditioning for studio companies or applying to college. That was a big, big question. Because if you’re not a prodigy, you need a plan B. Ultimately, my decision was go to school. Because, I guess, I could make my parents happy, plus also get the ballet experience that I wanted. I chose the University of Cincinnati College Conservatory of Music. Because from what I saw, they had a good reputation of graduates going on to professional companies. It was a really good experience. I went there for two years, instead of the regular four. Just because at the age of 19, that’s when I signed my first professional contract. I decided to drop out of school. Just because being a professional ballerina was the ultimate goal, and I signed that contract which was my dream. When I signed that contract, I dropped everything and I moved to Spain alone to pursue this full-time. Joseph: Before we get to your time working as part of that company in Spain, can you give me a sense of some of the roles that you had up until this point as a ballerina? Rina: [12:23] I was “Kitri” in Don Quixote. Very, very exciting. One of my favorite ballets. In the University of Cincinnati, I had a lot of soloist roles. I was “Cupid” in their Don Quixote production as well. I was the “Silver Fairy” in Sleeping Beauty. I was one of the fairies in our Cinderella production, in collaboration with the Dayton Ballet’s artistic director. Joseph: “Winter Fairy,” is that right? Rina: [12:53] “Winter Fairy,” yes. Thank you. I was one of the fairies. I forgot which one. Another role I was part of the quarter ballet in La Bayadère. I was the first person. This is like all ballet terminologies. There’s this part of the scene in La Bayadère where every dancer has to do an arabesque to penché, and I had to do that 36 times because I was the first person. That was also one of the main highlights of my time at the conservatory. Joseph: I want to switch gears here, Rina, and talk about your time in Spain because here you are as someone who has now left college. You are 19 at this time, so a teenager still. You move to Spain all by yourself. Can you take me back to the moment when you landed in Spain, what was running through your head? First of all, being in a new country. But also, getting ready to sign this contract to join a company there. Rina: [13:52] It was very exciting. It was like a dream come true. Especially, when I got to Spain. We could also talk about the whole annoying process of getting a Visa, and getting an apartment, all in Spanish. That was a real pain. Especially, doing it alone at 19, too. It was very overwhelming, I remember. I don’t know how I did that. I don’t think I could even do it right now, to be honest. I give props to myself for that for handling that whole situation alone. I remember being very, very happy. I’m like, “Okay. This is the start of my professional journey. I’ve made it through pre-professional training. All those long hard years of working hard, and I finally made it to my goal. This was the moment that I’ve been waiting for since a very young age, and I’m here now. I can’t wait to work hard.” And so, those were the feelings that I was feeling when I first landed in Spain. Joseph: Now, I don’t know a ton about the world of ballet, Rina. I guess my only real exposure to it was, I went to Northwestern University as an undergraduate student. Between the school of communication and the school of music, there are actually a pretty sizable group of students that are focused on the performing arts. I was actually an R.A. my junior year at a Humanities dorm that was very popular among students majoring in things like dance or theatre. I got a bit of a glimpse into how hard it is to make it as a dancer. Especially, when it comes to ballet, I feel like it’s typically portrayed as extremely competitive, almost cut-throat, at least in the popular press and in Hollywood. I’m thinking about things like “Black Swan.” Let’s just talk reality here. The good, bad, and ugly of your time at that company. Maybe it’s best to, first of all, start off with the good. Because it sounds like you landed there, you’re very excited. What did you like about being a ballerina in a professional company? Rina: [15:55] I was definitely very humbled. It was hard work getting to where I got. I didn’t want to take anything for granted. I consider myself very lucky too because, as mentioned, this is very competitive. Even signing a contract to be with a ballet company, I was over cloud nine. I consider myself very lucky, very grateful for this opportunity, and very humbled that I’m even at this spot because a million girls would kill to even have this spot in the company. Those were my emotions. Joseph: What was your relationship like with the other competitive, I’m assuming, girls who are also part of your company? Rina: [16:40] The reason why I was so grateful and humbled, not of course being in the ballet company, but aside from that, it was because I was surrounded by people that were so talented. Never in a million years would I have ever thought that I would be training or dancing next to people that were training in the most prestigious schools in Europe. Like, schools that I could never get into, I was dancing next to them in a company together. That was when I would step back and I’ll be like, “Wow! I can’t believe I’m dancing with all of these talented people, almost prodigies, that we’re at the same company dancing together. What’s going on?” That’s why I felt so lucky, so grateful, so humbled. I learned a lot from them. They were very nice people. I definitely knew my place at the company. I’m not trying to be cut-throat here. All I wanted to do was learn from them. That’s part of the good news that we’re starting with, is that I was exposed to a lot of very talented people and nice, nice people. Joseph: What was the hardest thing about being part of that company? Rina: [17:53] Especially, since we’re talking about an international company here where I don’t speak the language, it was extremely hard for me to even be in this country because Spanish was the only language that people were talking in. Building upon that pressure, I ideally wanted to have more support from the leadership team, but it’s not very common unless you are a very big government-supported company that I feel like the leadership would be good. I was kind of expecting not being too supported, but it really hit me when it was my first professional year. I’m like, “Oh, it is very hard when there’s no strong base of leadership.” Joseph: I know when we were talking before this recording. You’d also mentioned that there were some toxic aspects of working in a company. Would you mind walking me through just what aspects of it felt toxic to you? Rina: [18:56] Directors, how they valued their dancers, how they treated them, in terms of just, I guess compensation, but also hours and performance opportunities, and values, and morals. Those things. That’s where we’ll get into why I am who I am today. My values and my morals, it’s deeply rooted in my experience as a ballerina. Joseph: It sounds like on the one hand being, a professional ballerina, it was incredibly exciting. You’re surrounded by incredibly talented individuals. At the same time, sounds extremely intense, long hours. Perhaps some elements of there being a toxic environment, what was your mental health like during this time? We’ll get to your physical in a moment. Rina: [19:544] It wasn’t the best, but I don’t know if I have just toxic positivity. I still remember, literally drilling this in my head like, “Don’t think like that. Don’t think like that. You’re so lucky to be here. You don’t have the privilege to even be thinking about your mental health right now.” I still remember telling myself that. Like, “A million girls would kill to be in your spot. Why are you even thinking about mental health?” That’s because ballet is so competitive that just to be in this spot, you should be so thankful. I don’t think I even gave myself the space to even think about mental health. Even if it’s toxic, I don’t care. Joseph: You’re going to power your way. Rina: [20:43] I’m here. Yeah. This is the world. This is the reality. I can’t complain. I knew that that was what I signed up for. Joseph: Kind of comes with the territory. So, why allow yourself to complain? I know when we spoke before, you also said something that really struck a nerve with me. You’d said that as much as you had put your whole life into ballet, y

Setting clear boundaries in your career is critical to maintaining a good work-life balance, positive professional relationships, and your own mental sanity. And setting boundaries is especially important when you’re a doctor, where you not only experience a lot of stress and pressure, but your own well-being can affect your ability to take care of the people depending on you for care. On episode 95 of the Career Relaunch ® podcast, Ali Jawa , a practicing endocrinologist turned medical director shares his thoughts on setting boundaries, acknowledging career stagnation, and making a non-traditional move within one’s industry. I also share some thoughts on defining your walkaway points in your career during the Mental Fuel ® segment. Key Career Takeaways At some point, you have to make a choice about the boundaries you’re going to set between your personal and professional life. The intellectual challenge in one’s career is crucial for personal and professional growth, as it encourages continuous learning and the development of new skills and perspectives. Having your feet on two different boats moving in different directions is extremely challenging. While you can bounce back and forth for a while, at some point, you have to leap and commit to one or the other. You need to get clear with yourself about “why” you want to pursue a specific career path. You can’t keep planning forever. You have to take action to honor those things you value most in your career and life. Resources Mentioned Ali mentioned Rich Dad Poor Dad , which was a pivotal book that helped me redefine how he thought about his own career. He also mentioned Marshall Goldsmith’s description of our different identities (programmed vs. created). Listener Challenge During this episode’s Mental Fuel ® segment, I talked about the importance of defining what your action threshold or tipping point will be before you take action. Think about which milestone you want to cross, what amount of time should pass, what state a relationship should reach, or how badly you’ll let your well-being suffer. What will it take, how far will you allow yourself to go before you can no longer NOT act? About Ali Jawa, Medical Director at Wilcare Ali Jawa is a doctor from Pakistan who moved to the US 27 years ago for advanced medical training in Internal Medicine, Endocrinology, & clinical research. He eventually returned to Pakistan to become a professor at a top public-sector medical university there. Over the next decade, he built his clinical practice, set up a medical center called WilCare , served as President of the Pakistan Endocrine Society , & trained several doctors to become endocrinologists like himself. Since 2015, he’s been the Medical Director of WilCare on a full-time basis. Did You Enjoy This Episode? Please Let Us Know! Review : I’d also love for you to leave a positive review and rating for the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Spotify , which helps my show reach more people who want to relaunch their careers. Follow : Be sure to follow the Career Relaunch ® podcast on Apple Podcasts , Spotify , Amazon Music , Google Podcasts , Stitcher , or Android to automatically get each new episode on your device. Full instructions . Stay in touch : Follow the Career Relaunch ® podcast on Twitter and Facebook . You can also follow host Joseph Liu on most major social media platforms. Connect with Joseph Comments, Suggestions, or Questions? If you have any lingering thoughts, questions, or topics you would like covered on future episodes, record a voicemail for me right here. I LOVE hearing from listeners! Leave Joseph a Voicemail You can also leave a comment below. Thanks! Thanks to A2 Hosting for Supporting the Career Relaunch® podcast A2 Hosting is the web host provider I use and trust for my own websites, and they even offer 100% carbon neutral green hosting. For an easy, fast, and affordable way to get your personal website online today, visit careerrelaunch.net/a2 to get 50% off your web hosting plan. Interview Segment Music Credits Bio Unit – Ground Effect Bio Unit – Flying Saucer Mochas – City Sun Podington Bear – Puppy AMBIENTALISM – Presence Poddington Bear- Pives And Flarinet Episode Interview Transcript Joseph: Okay. Ali, welcome to the Career Relaunch Podcast. It is great to have you on the show. Salam Alaikum. Ali: [03:08] Wa Alaikum Salam, and the pleasure is mine. Thank you for having me, Joseph. Joseph: Thank you so much for having me. I appreciate you tolerating my attempt at Urdu at the start here. But I got to try to use a little bit of what I learned last month in Pakistan when I visited you guys out there. The last time you and I spoke face to face was sitting at a sushi restaurant in Lahore over dinner after a workshop I hosted out there. I know you’re a very busy guy. I was wondering if you could just start us off by telling me what you’ve been focused on recently, both personally and also professionally in your life. Ali: [03:41] Lately, I have been focusing on my business. My primary business is running a medical center based in Lahore. Other than that, I enjoy interacting with my peers and friends in Entrepreneurs’ Organization. I belong to the Lahore chapter, and I actively engaged with them for the past five years. Joseph: That’s actually where you and I first met. It was nice to have you in the audience there and to be able to speak with you afterward. One of the things you just mentioned is that you’re a medical director. Your organization is called Wilcare. Can you just give me a snapshot of what Wilcare does and the patient population that you serve? Ali: [04:24] Wilcare is an outpatient medical facility. We have been in existence since 2008. It has been an amazing experience in the sense that initially started with a smaller place. As we developed our clientele and the patient population grew, we expanded. We developed a structure. We primarily deal with patients and clients referred by other businesses for medical check-ups. That is been the bread and butter of Wilcare for the past almost 15 years. Joseph: Can you also just explain briefly how health care works there in Pakistan? I heard a little bit about this from you when I was there. Can you explain the general setup private versus public and how patients typically access care there? Ali: [05:17] Patients tend to have a choice. They choose who they want to see, and that is essentially because they are self-pay. They’re paying out of their own pocket. There is a small group of people who have insurance and they have a structure in place in which they go to preferred providers, but it’s not as well-developed as in the West such as in America. It’s basically the patient chooses who they want to go and see; a specialist, a generalist, a family doctor. It’s up to them. Majority of the care is being provided by the private sector. But in all over Pakistan, the government sector exists and does provide coverage to primarily lower social economic classes. Joseph: Before we go back in time and talk about how you got to where you are today, Ali, I know that you’re also a busy family man and you are a father. Can you give me a snapshot of your family structure, kids? How that looks for you right now? Ali: [06:18] I have a big family. My children are all grown up. When you have to deal with your family life as well as your business, especially when you are a practicing doctor, at times, the family gets compromised. I do have to admit that my family life was somewhat compromised in the start of my career in Pakistan. Eventually, kind of an equilibrium and a little bit more towards the family. The tilt has been more evident. Joseph: Let’s go back in time and let’s talk about how you became a doctor in the first place. You haven’t always been the medical director at Wilcare. Can we talk about your days when you were focused solely on the clinical side of medicine? I’d like to start from the very, very beginning. When did you decide that you wanted to be a doctor? Ali: [07:08] In Pakistan, when I was growing up, the usual choices, the preferred choices were to be either a doctor or an engineer. Pretty much the decision happens based on how much marks do you get, and when you get a good grade, and they say, “Oh, you are eligible to become enrolled in a medical college. You should become a doctor or an engineer.” If not, then everything else comes afterward. Fortunately, I had good marks and my family persuaded me to become a doctor so I became a doctor. When I was still in the final year of my medical training, undergrad medical training, my friends and my family kind of nudged me to consider going to United States for post-graduation. In 1996, after I completed my med school, I went to America. I did my residency in internal medicine. Afterward, I’m in primary care doc in the VA system up there in Upstate New York. Afterward, I did my fellowship at Tulane University New Orleans, Louisiana. Afterward, almost after 10 years of being in United States, I came back to Pakistan as a professor and I joined a leading public sector University in Rohan. I started with practice, built my practice, while also setting up my medical center, which started in 2008. I juggled academic, appointment in the morning, clinic in the afternoon, as well as managing my medical center somewhere in between wherever I had time. This overlap lasted about I would say almost seven years. Joseph: Let’s go through these one at a time here. Because I know you went through a quick time-lapse of some major — both geographical and also professional changes. When you first went to the United States, did you know what kind of doctor you wanted to be? Ali: [09:05] I wanted to be a gastroenterologist. However, during my training, I tend to develop a little interest in pulmonology, that’s being a lung specialist. And then, I said, “You know what? I don’t like it either.” So, I took two years working as a primary care doc to have a feel what is actually in real life. I said either I become a rheumatologist or an endocrinologist. Since some of my family members had diabetes, I said, “I’ll become an endocrinologist.” My decision-making was not that complex. It was probably emotional in nature, I guess. Joseph: Can you explain exactly what endocrinology is? For those people who are not familiar with it. What drew you to that? I know you mentioned you knew some people who had diabetes. Was there something in particular that enabled you to choose that over the rheumatology or the pulmonology, some of those other things you were considering? Ali: [10:04] Endocrinology is primarily, in layman’s terms, is somebody who deals with hormones. But that’s an oversimplification. It is a two-year training in the United States. After you have completed three years of internal medicine residency. Most of the patients in endocrinology are pertaining to diabetes, and also thyroid and other hormonal diseases come under the ambit of endocrinology. I realized kind of during my training that I’m not a very hands-on guy. I like more intellectual work in which there is complex decision-making that requires a little bit more attention to detail. Rheumatology and endocrinology both appealed to me. There was a sense overall that the diabetes epidemic is a clear and present danger for humanity. I tended to find that to be something more relevant for me. But that was just my feeling at that time, and that’s why I pursued endocrinology. Joseph: The other thing I would love to hear about is your first years there in the United States. I know you’re focused on your medical studies there, but I’ve been to Lahore and I’ve been to Upstate New York and I’ve been to New Orleans. Those places are very different from one another. What was it like to go from Pakistan and live and learn in the United States for you during those years? Ali: [11:38] It was very challenging for several reasons. Starting from how we drive here to how we interact with patients, how do you get your children to go to school, what is the education system for them, how do you interact with your family and extended family after such a long gap. All of the things were challenges and they were welcome challenges. I believe I was ready for it. I knew because I came from here, I went from here. I was familiar with the overall situation. It took some time but I had a big support from my wife and my family. When you reach a certain level of frustration, you have a support group that helps you cope with it. That has been a great blessing for me. Joseph: The other thing I was wondering if you could talk about was this balance between being a professor at Tulane versus actually seeing patients in the clinic. Can you explain how you balance those two, and how much you enjoyed one versus the other? Ali: [12:55] Honestly, I think I enjoyed teaching more than clinical. However, clinical has its own advantages. You tend to apply what you’ve learned and you teach if you’ve been teaching to your med school students and other doctors. When you test them in real life, they kind of reaffirm as well as instigate or agitate you to perhaps do some research on them. Many of the clinical trials that are conducted in the United States, as well as in Pakistan, they were driven by the real-life scenarios, the challenges that we’re facing. In Pakistan, the research was a little different for us. Because they were so-called clinical research that was strongly anchored into the real life. We had to utilize methods in which we did not do a lot of laboratory testing, but it was worth my while. The time I spent in research in Pakistan. Joseph: You’re at Tulane University. You’re an assistant professor of medicine there. What triggered you to then return to Pakistan? Ali: [14:10] Actually, when I left, I had made my plan that I am going to return back. The psychological limit was 10 years. As soon I was close to it, I was already wrapping it up. Fortunately, there was an opportunity in which the government of Pakistan would hire you from the United States when you come back to Pakistan into a leading university. They would place you. They would pay you. They would facilitate research for you. It was a dream come true for me because that’s what kind of let me stay in academics for almost 15 years when I returned to Pakistan. Joseph: Do you remember the moment when you stepped off the airplane there in Pakistan, and what that was like for you to be back there after being away for so long? Can you take me back to that moment? Ali: [15:06] I was very happy because it was a new challenge. I knew I had the support of my family who were in Pakistan. I had the support of my wife who was also in alignment and was committed along with me to make it in Pakistan. Joseph: Before we talk about what you’re currently doing, I do want to dive a little bit deeper into your life as a doctor and as an endocrinologist. I was out to dinner with my 5-year-old daughter the other day. We were talking about the different jobs that people have in the restaurant where we were eating. She asked me, “Daddy, who has the busiest job in the world?” The very first profession that I could come up with was a doctor, which is what I actually told her. As you know, many years ago, I thought about becoming a doctor myself. One of the things that eventually convinced me not to pursue medicine was a realization that the pace and the intensity of the job was not something I was going to be able to handle. How intense was your life as an endocrinologist and what was your day-to-day life like? Ali: [16:11] It was brutal. Especially, the first three, four years after I came back to Pakistan because the challenge was that I need to demonstrate that I am fit to integrate. In the morning, from 8:00 to 2:00, I would be at the university. I would be doing clinical rounds. I would be supervising the medical doctors in the outpatient clinic, that would start somewhere like 10:30ish till 1:30. I would also be giving talks to all levels of medical students and doctors. After 2 o’clock, I would take a small break to have lunch. And then, I would start my clinic, like 3 o’clock-ish till like 7:00, 8:00. Joseph: That’s when you see your own patients between 3:00 –? Ali: [16:58] My own patients. It was a challenge in that sense that the patients at time would not follow you as you would like them to be. They have different motivations. You get frustrated that they know that this thing is not working, and they still don’t follow the advice. With time, I tend to realize that I cannot control my patients. All I can do is the best advice I can give, adjust it for them. You be keeping their socioeconomic status in mind, keeping their physical ability to take medicine in mind, keeping their support at home in mind. And if they still don’t follow, it’s up to them. This realization came after a couple of years. Because I was very much used to giving advice in the United States, and the patient would follow. Because they would — medicine will be covered by the insurance. They would have a minimum co-payment for their visit. They would keep to their appointment, but this was 180 degrees. But when I adjusted to it, I started to realize not every patient is going to be a model patient. I need to be accepting of it and not worry too much about it. That was the moment when it became a little easier. However, it was tough because patients in Pakistan demand you to be present and available even in off hours. At times, it is very inconvenient. I had to make a compromise that I had to draw a limit to when I’m going to answer their questions when even if they’re calling from home. This took some time. It was back and forth. And then, you eventually find your sweet spot. When you don’t compromise your family life and you also deliver service to your patients. Joseph: You mentioned family life there, Ali. I know you’ve got five children now. At the time, when you were working these really long days, starting off with doing rounds, 8:00 a.m., and then spending the last half of your day seeing your own patients, can you describe what your family life was like at that time? Ali: [19:12] I might have neglected and might have missed some very precious moments in an early part of my transition in the couple of years. Eventually, when things started to settle down, first, I drew a line that I will never practice on a Saturday. In America, it’s five days. In Pakistan, it was unheard of. People still practice six days a week. Second, I made a vow that I will not practice in the evening. Most people did tend to practice in the evening. Sometimes, late hours. The third thing was that I had some dedicated off hours and days, which I started to enforce in the third year after I settled in Pakistan. Eventually, I was able to carve a safe time for me and my family. It was a challenge but I did eventually find what I wanted to do. Joseph: This pace of being a doctor where you are working these long hours, seeing people who are in a lot of need, who are sick, need a lot of help, I suppose it doesn’t leave you with a tremendous amount of time to think about yourself as much. I’m curious to hear a little bit about the typical career trajectory of a doctor. In many professions and in many industries, a lot of people are thinking about, “When am I going to get promoted? Which company am I going to move to next?” In the world of physicians, in the world of doctors, how does that look in terms of your own career progression? How much do you think about it, and what does it typically look like for the average doctor? Ali: [20:56] Student academics, it is presumed that you will take the linear pathway. You will be from assistant professor to become an associate professor, then a professor. Then, you’ll become head of the department. If luck would have it, you would become dean or a principal of a medical college. That is a typical trajectory. If you

Controlling your own professional narrative is especially important when you’re changing career paths. Proactively taking control of your own narrative helps you ensure that your unique value and aspirations come through clearly and convincingly. On episode 94 of the Career Relaunch ® podcast, HR adviser turned executive coach Maura Lightfoot shares her thoughts on finding your voice in an environment where you’re an outlier and the importance of identifying the common thread across all your diverse professional experiences. I also share some thoughts on the importance of owning your own narrative during the Mental Fuel ® segment. Key Career Takeaways Working abroad gives you an opportunity to find your unique voice when you are an outlier and minority in your workplace. When you’re proud of the work you do and an organization values someone with your unique skillset and background, that’s a sign you’re working for the right employer. Working in a mission-driven world doesn’t preclude you from burnout. In fact, you may be more susceptible to burnout because you’re so passionate about your work. Find the common thread across your work. Everyone has the power to author their own story. Often, you must go through a bit of messy upheaval in your career before you eventually find your way. It’s just part of the journey. Listener Challenge My challenge to you is to take some time to identify the common thread across all the work you currently do and have done in the past. What’s been your common motivation across your roles? What’s the singular purpose that gets you out of bed each day? Try to capture it in words and see how it sits with you. Share that statement with others to see how it lands with them. Making an effort to articular this can hopefully provide you with some clarity and direction when exploring new opportunities and communicating what you bring to the table in those situations. About Maura Lightfoot, Executive Coach Maura Lightfoot knows a lot about taking control of your professional narrative. Consistent throughout Maura’s career has been her drive to empower others in their work. From human resources in the Middle East to financial services management consulting in London to nonprofit organizational culture in Washington D.C., Maura’s international experience equips her with a unique perspective that’s both grounded and global. Now an executive leadership coach, Maura works with clients around the world including North America, Europe, Africa, and the Middle East. Learn more about Maura’s coaching work or connect with her on LinkedIn . Did You Enjoy This Episode? Please Let Us Know! Review : I’d also love for you to leave a positive review and rating for the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Spotify , which helps my show reach more people who want to relaunch their careers. Follow : Be sure to follow the Career Relaunch ® podcast on Apple Podcasts , Spotify , Amazon Music , Google Podcasts , Stitcher , or Android to automatically get each new episode on your device. Full instructions . Stay in touch : Follow the Career Relaunch ® podcast on Twitter and Facebook . You can also follow host Joseph Liu on most major social media platforms. Connect with Joseph Comments, Suggestions, or Questions? If you have any lingering thoughts, questions, or topics you would like covered in future episodes, record a voicemail for me right here. I LOVE hearing from listeners! Leave Joseph a Voicemail You can also leave a comment below. Thanks! Thanks to Wise for Supporting the Career Relaunch ® podcast Wise is the world’s most international bank account. It lets you hold and convert multiple currencies all in one place, offering a smarter, easier way to move money internationally without the typical bank fees or foreign exchange commissions. I’ve used it for years myself to handle many of my own international transactions. Try Wise for free at CareerRelalunch.net/wise . Interview Segment Music Credits Podington Bear – Bountiful Podington Bear – Many Hands Ookean – Paintings Podington Bear – Pink Gradient Podington Bear – Loll Podington Bear – Leftover Fog Bio Unit – Aerial Episode Interview Transcript Maura: [03:01] Thank you so much for having me, Joseph. It’s wonderful to be here. I’m so delighted to reconnect in this way, and really looking forward to the conversation. Joseph: Well, let’s get started by getting a glimpse into what’s happening for you at this particular moment. What are you focused on right now in your career and also your life? Maura: [03:19] I’m currently based in Bethesda, Maryland, which is just outside of Washington, D.C. It’s wonderful because it’s rich in culture. It’s an incredibly diverse place to live, and so we’re enjoying that. As a result of that, and sort of related to that, I’ve had the benefit of working for an international non-for-profit over the past few years. Most recently, I’ve moved into executive leadership coaching. I’m now working with leaders on how and where they show up in the workplace, which is very exciting. Joseph: I also know that you are a mother of two young boys. How do you go about balancing that with starting a new coaching practice? Maura: [03:58] They are a handful, 4 and 6 years old. We do have help. I wouldn’t be able to do this without our wonderful nanny who’s been with us for a few years. One of the benefits of coaching for me, and the reason I made the transition, is to spend more time with them. Being able to spend time with them in the afternoons, and have special time together has made a big difference. Even just the last few months in our relationship, which have been great. Joseph: I’m also, as you know, a career consultant. I know that since moving into working for myself, it has definitely been helpful as a parent. I wouldn’t have it any other way. It definitely offers you some flexibility that you wouldn’t necessarily get if you were in a traditional full-time, corporate role. As I know, you and I have both been in the past. You haven’t always been an executive coach, and I do want to come back to that toward the end to explore your journey into coaching. But could we just go back and talk a little bit about some of the major transitions that you’ve had in your life? We’re going to cover some major geographical transitions, some functional and role changes that you’ve experienced. But I’d love to just go back in time and talk about really the beginning part of your career. As I understand it, you did your undergraduate studies at the University of Pennsylvania. What were you studying at the time and what were your initial career plans? Maura: [05:21] I was at Penn. I was an Anthropology, major; African studies, minor. I pursued that because I loved people. I mean to put it very simply, I loved connecting with people and understanding more about their systems and the dynamics between them, intra- and inter-system connections and dynamics. And so, I was able to pursue that in my studies. I did know at the time that I didn’t want to be an anthropologist sort of an academic professionally. So, that opened the door to what’s next. I had this incredible study abroad experience as part of my African studies minor where I was able to spend almost four months in South Africa in an immersion program. We had four homestays. We learned Xhosa through an intensive language study. I found myself in environments that were completely foreign to me and absolutely loved it. I wasn’t sure exactly what I wanted to do after undergrad, but I knew I wanted to sort of replicate that experience in some way. Joseph: Now, you posted on LinkedIn last month, which reminded me of you and the work that you’re doing, that you said that one of your top priorities when you were graduating from Penn was to get a job overseas. Why was that so important to you? Maura: [06:40] It all started with that experience studying abroad. I can’t sort of thank the people that were involved in that enough. I grew up in South Jersey. I went to school 20 minutes from home, and very supportive family, and really wonderful environments. I wanted to experience a diverse setting, an environment that was different from that in which I grew up. I was able to do that in my undergrad studies. Wanted to do that again when I graduated. And so, I applied for programs and jobs that were in really kind of remote places. Places you wouldn’t think of necessarily. Joseph: Could you give a sampling of a few of the places you were thinking about going to? Maura: [07:25] Mexico was probably the closest place. I was looking at Peru. I was looking at Vietnam. My two job offers — actually, I only had two in the end. It came down to teaching in Ulan Bator in Mongolia and becoming an HR recruiter in Doha, Qatar. And so, that’s how I ended up in Doha. Joseph: How did you make the decision to go to Qatar over Mongolia? What was the main motivation there? If you can think back that far. I know this is a while back. Maura: [07:56] For me, it came down to the job description itself. It came down to the role that I was doing. I was looking not just for what that was going to be in the moment, but something that would put me in a position that I could sort of leverage that into something, at a later time, that was more a longer trajectory that I was interested in pursuing professionally. So, it was teaching English in Ulan Bator. Very exciting, huge geographic area. I mean there’s so much to do in Mongolia. Doha, Qatar itself, I should say is much smaller. I was moving at the time into an HR role, which I think for myself and my interest gave me kind of a bigger platform that I could then use to springboard into something else in the future. Joseph: Now, I’ve never been to Qatar myself, Maura. I know it’s been in the news a lot lately with the World Cup. I have hosted a webinar for some execs out there. But I don’t know what life is like there on the ground. Could you give me a glimpse into what daily life was like for you there, as someone in her early 20s who had just moved there from the United States? Maura: [09:04] Well, the country itself is only about 2 or 3% Qatari. Not sure exactly the latest numbers, but it’s 98 to 97%, at the time at least when I was there, foreign nationals. There are people from all over the world that go to Doha to work. I was moving into a position working for a construction management firm. We had staff from all over the Middle East, from Australia, from Malaysia, from Canada, from the United States, from the U.K., from Ireland. I mean, all over the world. For in terms of the people that were based in the office, which I was, that was a smaller percentage of staff. Because most of our employees were actually out on construction sites and project sites. So, for those who are in the office every day, I was, myself, the youngest by at least 10 years. I was the only woman who wasn’t a secretary in a secretarial position. I was the only White person. I was the only native English speaker. And, I was the newest person to arrive to the office. Everyone else had been there for at least a few months. It was an incredibly intense, intimidating environment. The people there were very kind, very nice, for the most part. But it was a lot it was a huge transition. On a personal level, I didn’t know anyone when I moved to Doha. I’d gotten the job in the U.S., and was on a plane within two weeks of my job interview. I [knew] a friend of a friend of a friend kind of thing, had one tenuous connection over Facebook that ended up kind of connecting me into a whole social network that I became friends with. But when I first landed, and for a few weeks, I was completely on my own. So, it was very intense. Joseph: We are, coincidentally, we didn’t plan it this way. But we’re recording this on International Women’s Day. Maura: [11:03] That’s true. Joseph: You mentioned that you were the only female in the office who was in a non-secretarial role, one of the youngest, clearly someone who was an outlier and a minority in so many ways, age, race. What was that like for you in the office on a day-to-day basis? Did you think about it? Did it manifest in any way? Did it affect you? If so, how? Maura: [11:25] It did certainly manifest. There are also cultural differences, which I came across, I mean continuously throughout my time there. I think the biggest thing that I had to figure out in that setting was, how do I find my voice? I would say find my feet, but it really became, how do I find my voice? As a woman who came from a family and a culture of strong women, that supports women, wants women to flourish and do well. Not everyone that I was with in that environment shared that sentiment. I, myself, experienced harassment, and inappropriate comments, and managers who didn’t want to support women or kind of thought women had a place that was different than the office, and told me as much. Told me that I would have a ceiling that was very low because I would have to have children someday, and that wasn’t very far off. Not only did I have to find my voice and stand up for myself, I also found that as I did that, other women both in the office and out on the project sites, came to me for support in dealing with the kind of situations that they were facing themselves. I became an advocate for them as well. To the extent where I ended up moving to the Dubai office. I actually ended up putting together an anti-harassment training, which I delivered across the region to other regional offices across the UAE, Qatar, and also Bahrain. That became a key part of the work that I created for myself in that role, and what I wanted to kind of leave behind. Joseph: Very interesting. Sometimes, I think about this, Maura. Because this is 2023, and you kind of hoped that we’ve made some progress in terms of gender equality and women being able to have the same opportunities in the workplace. Again, I’m making some broad generalizations here, but I’m assuming that they’re in a more patriarchal environment. That no matter what you do, it’s kind of hard to get ahead. Would you say that’s a fair characterization or not? Maura: [13:37] I don’t disagree. I would certainly say that women are seen very differently in patriarchal societies through the lens of those who hold on to that view because it’s not just a society as a whole. We all know people who see life in that through that lens, and women are seen differently. It manifests and kind of shows up in the way that they’re spoken to and the expectations that are put on them. Opportunities are not seen to be connected to women in the same way as they are with men. It was a very bizarre experience to have that in 2008 to 2010, not that long ago. I found myself at the age of 22, educating middle-aged men as to the art of what’s possible for women because I grew up with very strong female role models, including my mother who worked and raised four children. And, these men telling me, “Well, enjoy it while it lasts because in a not too distant future, you’re going to have to get married and have kids. And then, your career will be over,” was not my story. I found it important that they knew that, and that they understood that expectations for women don’t have to be different than they do for men certainly. Joseph: I just got back from Pakistan just last week. I was out there for a few days hosting some workshops and I did have a conversation with a woman out there who was talking to me about the gender dynamics there. Again, broadly generalizing a slightly more patriarchal society, just the challenges that still exist right now and it’s hard to navigate it. As someone myself, who is American, when I go into a different culture, sometimes I struggle with how much to voice my views on how things could be versus just the way that it’s been accepted in whatever society I’m in. I struggle with that sometimes. How did you manage that? Like balancing your opinions versus the societal norms in a very different part of the world. Maura: [15:45] I think what I did was not try to project. The big exception being a straight-up harassment case because I did deal with those. That’s, of course, inappropriate. My opinion is that that’s inappropriate in any culture and regardless of gender. But with that being the exception, I mean I tried to explain to people what my views were for myself. Rather than say, “Hey, your expectations for yourself as a woman in this culture are lower than they should be.” Or, “Your expectations for your wife are lower than they should be.” It wasn’t a judgment about others. It was just to say, “Look. This is what I expect for myself, and I know I can do it because I’ve seen other people do it.” So, trying to kind of raise that ceiling through the stories about myself and my own narrative rather than judging others. Joseph: I’m going to shift gears here a little bit. I want to talk about your transition. I know this is just one of the many that we’re going to cover today. So, you’re working in this firm in Qatar, and you’re working in HR. What triggered you to move to London after that? Can you remember what your motivation was in making that move? Maura: [17:10] I can. I’m married to him now. Joseph: That is often the reason why people make international moves. Maura: [17:18] That was very professional and sort of personal driven by me. I ended up, as I said, I didn’t know anyone when I got there. I ended up meeting this great group of people. One of whom I started dating. He got into a Master’s Program in London and said, “Do you want to come with me?” I said, “Sure. I’ll go. I speak English,” which was a big mistake because the English language in the U.K. is very different from American English. I managed to get a Visa for myself, a work Visa, while I was still in Dubai. And then, I moved from there to the U.K. with my work Visa, but with no job. Joseph: I see. This was 2010. Is that right? Maura: [17:54] Yes. Joseph: But I guess the Visa restrictions were not quite as well restrictive at the time. Maura: [17:59] When you’re applying for a job in another country — and I think this is true in most countries. You either need your own Visa, which has a work status, or you need to be sponsored by an organization. Being able to get that U.K. work Visa in Dubai meant that I was applying for jobs in London with the Visa. So, I didn’t need the company sponsorship, which just helped to be honest. Joseph: Can you remember how it felt when you landed in London back in a predominantly English-speaking country? That is, I guess, at least for all intents and purposes, as different as it can get from a place like Dubai, or Qatar, or Doha. Maura: [18:40] I still say this: it was the hardest thing I’ve ever done. I thought moving to London would be easy for all the reasons that you would assume. It’s incredibly bureaucratic. I wasn’t at the time a British national. We luckily had a family connection, and so we’re able to kind of get an address. Even just getting a cell phone, which you need to apply for jobs because they need to be able to call you, was really actually very challenging. Joseph: Yeah. It is tricky. Maura: [19:12] As much as there wasn’t a language barrier, it was much more bureaucratic, which I found challenging. Joseph: So, you do land in London, you do finally manage to get a mobile phone, and a bank account and those kinds of things you need to get your life started there. Maura: [19:24] Exactly. Joseph: You move to ERM, environmental resources management, and are still working in HR. Could you explain what your trajectory was there? And then, ultimately, what triggered you to then decide to pursue your MBA? Maura: [19:40] So, the challenge in working in HR, and then moving to a different country, is that there’s an expectation when you’re working with personnel that you understand employment law, which I didn’t and still really don’t in the U.K. However, ERM had this great position o

Moving abroad for a job can be tough emotionally and practically. Leaving familiar surroundings and loved ones can lead to homesickness and isolation. Adapting to a new work environment, language, and way of life adds to the pressure. However, it can also be a broadening and enriching experience that expands your world in unexpected ways. Stefania Tosini, a press officer turned talent acquisition specialist is going to talk about what she wrestled with when making her decision to move from Italy to Germany during the height of the Covid-19 pandemic. In episode 93 of the Career Relaunch ® podcast, I also share some thoughts on the struggles I had when I moved from the US to the UK during the Mental Fuel ® segment. Key Career Takeaways Leaving one’s family behind to pursue a career can be a difficult decision to make. It can bring up a variety of emotions, ranging from fear and anxiety about leaving a loving environment to excitement for new opportunities and experiences to come. Do not be afraid to ask for help. Everyone needs support from time to time. Expectations can be a tricky thing, especially when it comes to your career decisions. Don’t assume that everyone will react to your choices in the way you hope. Listener Challenge During this episode’s Mental Fuel ® segment, I talked about moving locations for your career. My challenge to you is to look forward instead of backward. To trust that you made the best decision you possibly could to serve what you felt was most important to you. Focus on doing everything you can to make the most of your current circumstances rather than dwelling TOO much on what you left behind. Start small and decide on one action you can take right now to more fully embrace your chosen path. About Stefania Tosini, Talent Acquisition Partner at Zalando Stefania Tosini is a polyglot with a background in international affairs and economics who recently made a big move of her own from Italy to Germany. With over 8 years of experience across multiple industries including roles in education as an English Teacher for the Japanese School of Milan, luxury fashion as a press officer for companies like Dolce & Gabbana, and now in online retail as a talent acquisition partner for Zalando, she finds her professional motivation in helping people find fulfillment and belonging in their careers. Did You Enjoy This Episode? Please Let Us Know! Review : I’d also love for you to leave a positive review and rating for the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Spotify , which helps my show reach more people who want to relaunch their careers. Follow : Be sure to follow the Career Relaunch ® podcast on Apple Podcasts , Spotify , Amazon Music , Google Podcasts , Stitcher , or Android to automatically get each new episode on your device. Full instructions . Stay in touch : Follow the Career Relaunch ® podcast on Twitter and Facebook . You can also follow host Joseph Liu on most major social media platforms. Connect with Joseph Comments, Suggestions, or Questions? If you have any lingering thoughts, questions, or topics you would like covered on future episodes, record a voicemail for me right here. I LOVE hearing from listeners! Leave Joseph a Voicemail You can also leave a comment below. Thanks! Thanks to Vista Social for Supporting Career Relaunch Vista Social is a versatile, time-saving tool to manage all your social media accounts in one place. You can easily create, schedule, optimize, and publish content directly to multiple social media profiles from one simple dashboard. I actually use it myself to manage all my online profiles. Try Vista Social out for free right now at careerrelaunch.net/vista . Interview Segment Music Credits Podington Bear – Floating Podington Bear – Program Reverie Podington Bear – Pulsars Podington Bear – Golden Hour REW – Hylidae Podington Bear – Holding Hands Podington Bear – Stuck Dream Podington Bear – Memory Wind Episode Interview Transcript Joseph: Hello, Stefania. Welcome to the Career Relaunch Podcast. It is great to have you on the show. Thanks for coming today. Stefania: [03:34] Hi. Thank you so much for the invite. Joseph: Why don’t we get started by getting a snapshot of what is keeping you busy right now in both your career and life? Can you give me a glimpse into what you’ve been focused on recently? Stefania: [03:01] First of all, Joseph, thank you for having me as your guest. In my personal life, I’d say that I’m focusing on my family and friends at the moment, especially after moving abroad to Germany. I really realized that family to me is the most important source of energy for myself. To give you some context, I’m from Italy and I think it’s absolutely true what people say about Italians. I match all the stereotypes here. I speak with my hands, and I love good food, and I’m a family person. Definitely, family is one of my main focus points. Joseph: What about your career? What have you been focused on at work recently? Stefania: [04:40] From a professional point of view, I switched careers and industries a couple of times already. Now, I’m focusing on growing my expertise, in recruiting. I’m working in talented acquisition. Therefore, it’s like really learning all the time and bringing your niche expertise to certain families and sectors. It’s really about growing and keeping on learning. Joseph: Now, you are currently at a company called Zalando. For those people who are not familiar with Zalando, can you just give a very quick snapshot of exactly what Zalando is and what you guys do? Stefania: [05:23] Zalando is awesome. It’s my employer and it’s an eCommerce platform, basically serving countries in Europe. We sell sportswear, beauty products, fashion products. To me, it’s a very highly advanced tech company. The sector is retail, fashion, and tech at the moment. I am a talent acquisition partner working in recruiting and I just love my job. I love my job because I’m working with people and for people. I do believe that the most important asset of a company is human capital. Joseph: Before we go back in time, Stefania, I also know you’re a bit of a polyglot. Can you remind me which languages you speak and how you ended up picking up those languages? Stefania: [06:17] Yes, I’m a polyglot. I love studying languages. I’m Italian. Of course, I’m a native speaker in Italian. I speak pretty well Spanish and Russian as well. I’m currently studying German and Japanese, too. Japanese has a longer story behind this. I think my passion for languages started when I was young. I wanted to connect with people faster. I remember that once I was traveling with my grandpas to the UK, and I was really, really young. I think I was 6 or 7 years old. I really wanted to connect with people. I wanted to express myself, and the only way to do so was getting confident with the language. That was the moment I realized I want to study languages. I just want to speak with other cultures, understand more from other cultures, connect with them. Perhaps it’s because I come from the country of human relationships, and this turn my interest in learning languages. Joseph: That’s amazing when I heard that. As you know, I’m originally from the United States. I come here to Europe and I suddenly realize that everybody speaks at least two languages, sometimes three. In your case, four or five. How did you pick up so many languages? Stefania: [07:57] Of course, the more you travel, the more you have the chance to get in contact with other cultures, other traditions. I became curious. Curiosity was the driving factor for myself. Overall, I was really passionate about literature. I loved Spanish literature, Russian literature. I was driven by that. I was resilient. I wanted to read books in the language they were written. To me, that was like a goal. How do I get to this goal? To me, it was just like, “Yeah, let’s go into grammar. Let’s study grammar. Let’s try to speak then with the locals.” Everything that’s related to culture, traditions, it was really moving something inside my soul. Joseph: That’s incredible. I would love to dive into this a little bit more because I know, just to switch gears here, if we go back in your history, you spent some time as an English teacher at a Japanese school in Milan. Before we talk about that, can you just tell me about your childhood? What did you want to be when you grew up? How did you think your work life and your adult life was going to look when you were a kid? Stefania: [09:17] My biggest dream was actually to become an actress. I totally had a different path. Totally unexpected compared to what I’m doing now. Overall, I think my skills were related to communication and connecting with people, and I was a happy child overall. Smiling and I wanted to also make a difference in people’s lives. Perhaps also sharing the knowledge that I had, and also trying to learn from others. That’s why perhaps I ended up becoming a teacher. As a teacher, you teach, of course, but you get a lot from others, like from your students, from the people you’re working with. I think that teachers make a difference, a really big difference in your life. I must say that I was really, really lucky to have such great examples of teachers in my life. They really inspired me. They really pushed me in becoming a better person, a better student. I’m also very conscious about the fact I could study. Now, education is a big topic and still in 2023, a lot of countries don’t have access to education. I was lucky enough to have this in my life. From the moment I understood I have access to education and I have access to great education, what can I grasp from this? How can I have an impact based on all the things that I’ve been in contact with, the people that have been in contact with? That, to me, was the moment that gave me confidence in moving forward in my career and in sharing what I was learning as well. Joseph: What triggered you to start thinking about doing something else? It sounds like the teaching was going well, you’re having a positive impact on students. Was there something in particular that got you thinking, “Hey, I might want to try doing something different”? Stefania: [11:28] I wanted to be in a new environment because, again, I am a very curious person. I know that I’m energized when I do something different all the time. To me, stability is important. But, at the same time, I really need to do something new and refresh. This opportunity came unexpected, to be honest. I was conducted back then by a head hunter because they saw that I had expertise in communication, that I was speaking several languages, and they were looking for someone who knew pretty well English, and Spanish, and Russian as well. They contacted me for a position in the press office in a fashion and luxury company, Dolce Gabbana based in Milan. I thought that’s the time to make this change and accept this change. I think I had nothing to lose back then. I gave everything to my job in the school but I also knew that it was time to try something new. Joseph: You go from being in an academic environment at a Japanese school to one of the world’s most well-known fashion brands, Dolce and Gabbana. Can you give a glimpse into what that was like to work there, and what exactly were you doing as a press office specialist? Stefania: [12:57] I was thrilled. I also started questioning myself like, “Why me?” It was an amazing experience. Working in the press office meant taking care of marketers and influencers, taking care of the credits where, of course, the company was mentioned in magazines and newspapers. Of course, online reports, online news. It was really exciting and you felt like being part of this magic world of fashion and luxury. Let’s say there in Milan, it’s really relevant, the sector. I felt thrilled. It was awesome. I loved my daily routine. I love translating press reviews. You really represented the brand. Joseph: I’m just speculating, and also wondering. Is working for like a big fashion brand like that, is it as glamorous as it may seem from the outside? I guess I’m imagining a bunch of people who are super well-dressed, very fast-paced, very modern, very current, exciting dynamic environment. What were your expectations of what life would be like there and what was your life actually like there? Stefania: [14:08] Absolutely, a nice environment. I must say very competitive. What we may see in movies, such as “The Devil Wears Prada.” Joseph: That’s exactly what I was thinking about. Stefania: [14:21] It’s absolutely true. There is a lot of competition. There is a lot of props, like pressure on what you do, and how you do that, and how you look, which is great. Don’t get me wrong. If this is what you want, you find exactly what you are looking for. But for myself, I had to be true to myself. I love the job. I loved my daily tasks. I also loved my colleagues and environment per se. But it became toxic for my personality because I tend to be a very competitive person. I tend to perfectionism like I want everything to be perfect. Back then, I didn’t have the tool to stop myself from being this way. It couldn’t last that long based on how I am. Joseph: I see. It’s sort of this combination of wanting to be perfect, and also being in a very intense competitive environment. It sounds like that just was not sustainable over time? Stefania: [15:26] If you, of course, have other priorities in your life and you want to focus on different things, perhaps it wasn’t really the best path for myself. Joseph: How did you go about figuring out what you wanted to do next once you realized that, “Hey, this environment may not be where I want to remain, long term”? What did you do to gain some clarity on what your next chapter might look like? Stefania: [15:53] There wasn’t a list of things that I was thinking about. I didn’t prepare any documents, like pros and cons. Of course, most of the current, let’s say mentorship or coaching programs propose, which I think do add a lot of value. But back then, I didn’t have those tools. I was connected with some friends, so networking here really played a super important role. They told me, “You know, we’re looking for someone that is going to work in this business school in Milan. It’s a lot about employee relations and events, like connecting also students with job opportunities. Of course, in this role, it’s fundamental. You can speak English and perhaps speak also other languages. Because students are coming from all over the world. Do you want me to connect you to the head of the employee of relations and career services?” I thought, “Yes,” like immediately. I didn’t really think about that twice. I have, of course, my interview process and everything went super well. And then, I started my new job in a new industry, and of course, with a new magic team. Joseph: This is, if I’ve got my timeline correct here, you were at Dolce and Gabbana for about a year. And then, in 2017, that is when you went to the SDA Bocconi School of Management in Milan, which is where you and I actually first cross paths. When I think we last saw each other face to face, which was in 2019. You were the career development and employer relations manager for the school. Can you explain what it was like to then go from Dolce and Gabbana back into more of an academic environment? This time, at a school of management but still in Milan. What was the transition like for you? Stefania: [17:48] It was a quite smooth transition at the beginning. Also because I always say that once you change a job, what matters the most is how your team is welcoming you, how they’re going to support you. They helped me in this transition. They’ve mentored me. Bocconi was a very, very challenging environment. Perhaps there is this understanding of academic environments as more relaxed, or perhaps laid back. But, in this case, Bocconi was challenging. We had a lot of events. We were responsible for creating training programs for our MBA students and students that were coming from again all over the world, and they had high expectations. You’re asking a lot from yourself. You want to give the best. This environment put me in contact with a lot of great professionals, with a lot of ambitious people. I gave a lot to this business school. But I also think it gave me a lot as well. Joseph: It is a really great environment there I have to say, Stefania. I’ve worked with, as you know I work with a lot of different business schools, and SDA Bocconi is just one of them. I do find the students there to be warm, and very diverse, and very friendly. At the same time, very demanding and also very achievement-oriented. And so, it’s an interesting combination. Now, I remember having coffee with you across the street from Bocconi in 2019. Now, this is late 2019, which is when I was there to host an in-person workshop. And then, the pandemic happened. Can you explain to me what the pandemic meant for you in your career? First of all, what happened with the work that you were doing? And what did you start thinking about at that time? Stefania: [19:45] Back then, I wanted to be challenged more. I wanted to experience something new. On top of this, my partner and I had a distance relationship, and we were ready to move to another country. Joseph: Where was he based at the time? Stefania: [20:01] He was based in Frankfurt, and then moved to Hamburg. I was based in Milan. We were looking for jobs all around the world. I ended up in Berlin. There were many things that actually contributed to this choice. Back then, when COVID hit, I was really scared, frankly speaking. On top of that, they usually say that you should not change more than two variables at a time. Basically, I changed the industry. I changed my role. I changed country, everything all together during a pandemic. Of course, I was scared. I was not fearless. I thought, “Did I really take the right choice? Will I be successful?” Because once you join a new company in Germany, you have six months’ probation period. Something that you’re not used to. I really had a lot of questions. I was questioning myself. I was questioning my decision. I was, of course, a threat about it. Unconsciously, perhaps you start putting all those fears that other people have as well. Because you may hear from other people, “Oh, you already have a safe job in Italy. Why are you moving? This is a full-time role. It’s a permanent role. You have security. You have stability. And now, for sure, there’s going to be a crisis. We don’t know what’s going to happen.” And then, I thought, “I know no one knows what is going to happen, with or without the pandemic.” I thought that there is like a certain amount of uncertainty that I can deal with to be happy with my life. The more I’m open to that, the happier I am. I really thought, “It’s time to move on. Let’s do this.” Joseph: Did you have a job lined up in Germany before you moved, or did you make this move before you had all that sorted out? Stefania: [22:20] I actually already received an offer. This all came before the pandemic started. I was in contact back then with an amazing recruiter working in Zalando. I was really worried, and I was contacting her every day. Like, “Is it really going to happen? Will everything be okay?” Because also all the airports were closed. I didn’t know. “Am I really going to be in that country? Will I be able to start?” It was really, really stressful. On top of that, I was leaving my family. It was not really like I’m going on holiday. It’s like, I’m going there. I don’t know, can I actually go back and visit them? I have a very close relationship with my grandpas. They were like my parents, and I was really worried about, “Can I see them again?” All those things worried me but also made me grow. Joseph: This is early 2020, when you made the move to Berlin. At the start of the pandemic, lots of uncertainty, lots of airport security. I actu

Pursuing hobbies and interests outside of our daily work can be incredibly beneficial for our personal and professional growth. Hobbies can help us relax and reduce stress, increase creativity and productivity, and even open up new opportunities and networks. However, it can be difficult to make time for hobbies when we are busy with work, family, and other responsibilities. Jenny Goh , a former conference event planner turned IT firm manager discusses the unique role transitional jobs play in your career and how side activities outside of work can be so useful to pursue. In episode 92 of the Career Relaunch ® podcast, I’ll also share my thoughts about how hobbies have influenced my own life and career during the Mental Fuel ® segment. Key Career Takeaways Admitting your own limitations and weaknesses can help you to re-evaluate your priorities and goals, and open up new opportunities for you to pursue something you might be more passionate about or better suited for. Having a hobby or passion project that you look forward to outside of work can help recharge your batteries and give you the energy and perspective you need to tackle the challenges at work. There will be a day when you aren’t working in your current job anymore. Learning from the successes and failures of others, as well as listening to the advice and guidance of mentors and peers, can help us navigate the professional world and make informed decisions about our own careers. If you feel you’ve learned and given all you can in your current role, you should consider seeking new opportunities to continue your personal and professional growth. Listener Challenge During this episode’s Mental Fuel ® segment, I invited you to pursue a new hobby this year. Perhaps an interest of yours that you’ve always thought about investing more energy into but just haven’t made the time for. Allow yourself the freedom to do something you think would be fun. This means regularly dedicating time to hobbies. Could you spare an hour on the weekends? Or even just 30 minutes one evening a week? Schedule this time into your calendar like you would with any other important task. Episode Chapters 00:00:00 – Overview 00:01:07 – Introduction 00:03:03 – Chat with Jenny Goh 00:40:00 – Mental Fuel 00:48:00 – Listener Challenge 00:49:33 – Wrap Up About Jenny Goh, Product & Scrum Master Jenny Goh initially thought she would become a scientist, so she spent her university days studying biology and heading down a research path. But when she was working toward her graduate degree, she realized that a career in research wasn’t what she really wanted and maybe wasn’t her natural forte. So, she started soul searching and exploring things like event planning, and eventually landed roles working in IT for companies like IBM. Now, as a Project Manager and Scrum Master at Accenture, she’s hoping to use the skills and knowledge she’s gathered over the years to hopefully help and inspire others in their careers. Her hobby of learning ballet on the side at the Singapore Ballet has had a direct impact on her perspectives when she’s at work. So I wanted to get Jenny onto the show to not only explain her career transition but also to share her thoughts on the importance of feeding your interests outside of work. Did You Enjoy This Episode? Please Let Us Know! Review : I’d also love for you to leave a positive review and rating for the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Spotify , which helps my show reach more people who want to relaunch their careers. Follow : Be sure to follow the Career Relaunch ® podcast on Apple Podcasts , Spotify , Amazon Music , Google Podcasts , Stitcher , or Android to automatically get each new episode on your device. Full instructions . Stay in touch : Follow the Career Relaunch ® podcast on Twitter and Facebook . You can also follow host Joseph Liu on most major social media platforms. Connect with Joseph Comments, Suggestions, or Questions? If you have any lingering thoughts, questions, or topics you would like covered on future episodes, record a voicemail for me right here. I LOVE hearing from listeners! Leave Joseph a Voicemail You can also leave a comment below. Thanks! Thanks to Harmoni for Supporting the Career Relaunch® podcast Thanks to Harmoni Design for supporting this episode of the Career Relaunch® podcast. The Harmoni Standing Desk offers a smarter, healthier way to work with its simple design that fits into any workspace. It’s the standing desk I’ve used myself since 2020, and Career Relaunch® podcast listeners can get 15% off any Harmoni order by visiting CareerRelaunch.net/Harmoni and using discount code RELAUNCH when you check out. Interview Segment Music Credits Podington Bear – Fluorescence Podington Bear – Pulsars Uniq – Art of Silence Rand Aldo – Offline Ever so Blue – Dvala Podington Bear – Gears Spinning Episode Interview Transcript Joseph: Okay. Hello, Jenny. Welcome to the Career Relaunch Podcast. It is great to have you on the show. Jenny: [03:09] Hi, Joseph. Thank you for having me here. Joseph: I am really happy that we are finally able to do this. You and I first cross paths on Medium actually, and I know we’ve been trying to record this for quite some time. What are you up to right now in your career in your life? What’s been keeping you busy? Jenny: [03:25] I’m currently working on a government project here as a scrum master. I’m a deputy project manager helping to manage the day-to-day progress of the project. Basically, running the project for the client. Making sure it meets their timeline and expectations. I’m busy with work, and I’m also busy with moving to a new place. These two activities have taken up the main bulk of my time. Joseph: Now, you’re based in Singapore. Can you tell me a little bit about where you live there and what your neighborhood’s like? Just so we get a sense of where you are there in Singapore. Jenny: [04:03] I think most of our listeners probably know that Singapore is small. I live in what we call a township that’s called Serangoon. It’s a rather mature and old estate, but very developed. You can just stay here you don’t need to go out of this little township and you can get everything here. If you’ve been to Singapore, it’s not like an orchard or any downtown place. But it’s just a very neighborhood place that has everything. I like it here. It’s very crowded, but I like it because it’s very convenient. I live just five minutes away from the train station. I’ve been staying here for three years now, and I’m going to move next month. Joseph: Where are you originally from, Jenny? I know you haven’t always lived in Singapore. Jenny: [04:57] I was born in Malaysia. I was raised there. And then, I moved to Singapore when I was 19. I have since then spent 20 years here. Joseph: Final thing before we go back in time and talk about your first role as a computer engineer. I know one of the reasons why we haven’t been able to record this for some time is that you’ve been struggling a little bit with COVID. I was wondering if you could just tell me about what impact COVID has had on your life, both health-wise and also just personally. Jenny: [05:30] I just caught COVID about a month ago. Actually, around five weeks. I was one of those people who had really serious symptoms, right? Not just asymptomatic, you can just chill out at home, right? I had high fever for three days. I’m nursing a persistent cough. It’s been five weeks. People would say that’s almost a long COVID. I think that has had a significant impact in my life because I’ve been starting to think like, “Should I maybe consider seriously this work-life balance thing?” Not that I’ve never thought about it before, but that makes me even more conscious about my life because I’m struggling to get back to my physical activities because I’m quite active. But I have to cut my exercises by half. Joseph: Thank you so much for doing this. I know you’re not fully recovered. I appreciate you squeezing this in as you’re trying to recover. I just hope you end up getting better soon. We’re going to come back to some of the importance of physical activity to you and your life toward the end when we talk about ballet. I was wondering if we could, first of all, just go back in time. I know you haven’t always been in your current project manager role. Could you take me back in time and tell me about what you think you wanted to become when you grew up and what you ended up doing as your first role when you finished up in university? Jenny: [06:56] When I was young, I went to maybe grade 7 or 8. At the time, you know when we started having internet, I thought it was cool. I thought I wanted to be a software engineer or computer engineer, right? But in my last year in high school, I discovered genetics. I thought, “Hey! That’s actually way more interesting.” At that time, there was a boom in the biomedical industry. I was getting a lot of influence. When I was choosing what to do in university, I received two offers. One is engineering, the other one is life sciences. After a whole realm of struggle, I decided to choose life sciences. I devoted the first about eight years of my life to it. Although, I’m doing something vastly different now. I would say that genetics, to a larger extent, biology is still my favorite. Joseph: How did you know whether you wanted to stick with biology versus going and trying something different? Jenny: [08:06] My career is slightly different. I mean, even if you study biology, you could pursue many career paths, right? You could be a high school teacher. You could be a lecturer in the college. You could also be a researcher. You could be a salesperson, what have you, right? I originally chose the academic path. I thought I would become a researcher, and maybe someday teach at a university. But the path as a researcher is not for the faint-hearted. After some years down the road, I realized that I am not super good at it. I love it, but I’m not going to excel in it. It was actually when I was halfway pursuing my doctorate and I was having this self-reflection, “Should I continue or not?” Joseph: How did you know that you weren’t good at it, just out of curiosity? It takes a lot to admit that we’re not good at something that we’ve already invested a lot of time into. Jenny: [09:08] As a student, as a researcher, you do need to submit some papers. You need to publish your paper. In comparison to my peers, I was struggling with it. I couldn’t meet my own expectations, or the benchmark that I have, this is where my peers are at, I’m supposed to be here around the same time, right? But I know that I can’t. At that point, I knew that I wasn’t going to do very well in it. I spent a lot of time in the lab. A lot of it is animal studies, right? You’re exploring the project by yourself, and by nature, I’m a sociable person. After some time, I feel like, “Maybe I actually prefer a job that has more interactions with people. And you’re right, it takes a lot to admit that you’re not good in something but once you are able to do that, you open up more opportunities for yourself. Joseph: I can’t remember if I told you this, Jenny, but I was also one of those students in university who studied the pre-medical sciences. One of the courses I had to take was biology, a full-year biology course. I ended up doing a fellowship at a medical school focused on pharmacology research. And so, I was spending all my days, and nights sometimes, in the lab literally pipetting different substances and materials. I spent most of my time counting cells versus actually interacting with people. Jenny: [10:48] There we go. Joseph: Yeah. I mean, like you, I just felt like, “This is just not me.” I remember not being very good at it. I remember when we had to present our results to the faculty, I was the only person whose results didn’t turn out the way that I had hoped they would have turned out. So, how did you then go from working in that field into what you ended up doing next? Which I understand was event planning, as a bit of a transition into the next chapter in your career. Jenny: [11:20] I mustered up all the courage and I told my supervisor, “Look, I’m sorry but I just wanted to graduate with master’s degree.” And then, I was thinking then, “Now what?” I have a lot of options, but I may not have the necessary qualifications to do those jobs, to pursue those opportunities. I started thinking about what I wanted to do, what I where are my interests. I thought that technology is the second thing that I like. But at that time, IT was taking off. I didn’t have the necessary qualifications. I don’t know how to get in there. Then, I thought, maybe then I should just continue looking for jobs in life sciences but it was tough. Either you graduated with just a bachelor’s and you take up some jobs, or you have to have a doctorate degree. And then, you can go to work for pharmaceutical companies, and then you have a decent job and good opportunities. But just having a master’s degree is hanging there. I struggled to look for jobs. At that time, this event company, they were looking for someone with life sciences background to plan the program and events for life sciences. They offered me the job and I took it up because I was looking for jobs for a few months already. Joseph: Did you feel like this is where you wanted to end up in event planning, or did you kind of feel this was a transitional role? I’m just curious because sometimes what comes up with people who are trying to make a career change is they wait for the perfect role, or I guess in your case maybe you wait for the right pharmaceutical job to come up, or the right IT job to come up. How did you come to the decision to take this event planning job, which sounds very different from what you had originally thought to do? Jenny: [13:17] It really was a transition because I live here by myself. Ever since I graduated from university, I stopped asking for help from my parents, right? I really struggle for a few months and I couldn’t get a job. I had some friends who helped me, and I have plenty of friends willing to refer me to jobs but it would be working in the laboratory again. I already knew I don’t want to go down that path. I’m not a super ambitious person, but I do wish to achieve something in my life. I know that continuing to work as a research assistant or associate in a lab is not what I want. So, I turned out their offers. There were people who helped me. Those are not jobs that I want. As I was struggling, well you need to pay the bills, right? So, I got this job, and I thought, “Why not I just take the job?” and I slowly figure out where to go from here. Joseph: How was that being in that event planning job for you? Knowing that it wasn’t maybe ultimately what you wanted to do the rest of your life, but that it was giving you a steady pay check and something to keep yourself busy as you tried to figure out what to do next. Jenny: [14:39] That is a very different industry, I must admit. When I first started, I got a culture shock. I mean, don’t get me wrong, there were a few people who had the same background as I do. Like, they were life sciences graduates but everybody else did not have a life science graduate. That was my first job outside of the academic world. So, it was a big culture shock. I have not really been selling things before. But as an event planner, you kind of have to sell your event and I didn’t know how that worked. And then, the people there, they come from very diverse backgrounds. I actually felt that I was quite lucky because I met some really good colleagues there, and we still remain as friends today. This was about around 10 years ago. Everything felt like, “Oh, my God. This is how things work,” you know. It was a small company, very intimate. I had two events planning jobs. And then, the second one was also a medium-sized company. I learned a lot about the events planning industry. That made me realize that, yes, it truly is just a transition job because it really is not what I want to do. Joseph: What steps then did you take to figure out what it was that you did want to do while you had this holdover events planning job? Jenny: [16:08] I did continue to apply for pharmacology jobs. Although I know that the chances may be slim, a lot of job openings that was put up, it’s either a clinical trial, kind of associate coordinator, or it’s a lab assistant, or you need to have a Ph.D. I wasn’t really interested in those. But I also thought that, “Okay. I can’t just get stuck.” I thought that I need to look for an opening to technology companies. So, I started looking through jobs trying to see where I can go. How do I get an opening and join? After some searching, I found a job. So, my ex-boss offered me a position at IBM. That’s how I ended up there. Joseph: Just to switch gears here. Now, you have entered into the IT sector or the tech sector, and this is now I’m assuming very different from what you were doing before. Working in a lab, using your biology knowledge, eventually moving into the event space, but still, it being related to your background in the sciences. It sounds like this was a complete departure from what you were doing before. How was that transition for you moving into IBM? Jenny: [17:31] That was my first MNC job, and I was also culture shock and blown away by many things. Because I never worked in a huge company like that. And, you’re right, a technology as big as that, they tend to move really fast. I don’t know anything at all beyond what I read from the newspaper. But I really wanted to start something. I must admit that other than feeling scared, I also felt insecure. I wasn’t sure if I can keep my job. There was also the constant fear that I wasn’t good enough, I wasn’t learning fast enough. And then, given that I got a job in an IT company now, how do I move from here? I have already changed my job once. Like from life sciences to events planning, and from events planning, now to IT. I was determined to make it work. Joseph: Can you describe what it was like on a day-to-day basis for you to be in this tech job versus what you’re doing before in biology? I’m most interested in just hearing about how you knew that this was not just a repeat situation of being in a lab, where you were completely misplaced but that this was just challenging, and that it was something that you’re going to work on and continue to progress in. Jenny: [10:07] In biology — and you definitely understand it because we came from a similar background, right? A lot of things are evidence-based. But, outside of science, you don’t need to be evidence-based. If you end up in a sales job, you can say anything you want. I admit that it was tough for me because I have the tendency to ask, “Why are people doing this?” To me, the world was either black or white because science is either you can back it by facts or if the fact says it’s wrong, it’s wrong. I struggle a lot with that. The difference is that in science, it was difficult. You were always searching for an answer but you have to use some kind of evidence to prove it. You have failures every day because your results just don’t turn out the way you want, right? And then, you just keep repeating that. But on the other hand, the job that I first started, I was hired as a proposal writer in IBM. Most people are bad at writing. They wanted someone who could understand what the solution is and put it in a very layman’s manner, coming up with certain creative materials to present to the clients to help them understand better. So I was doing a lot more creative thinking work versus the science work, where you need to be very factual. Joseph: The other question I have for you about your time at IBM, before we move into your most recent transition into Accenture, is just what life was like for you in the tech industry as a whole? Working in a very fast-moving industr