Makers & Mystics

How do the images we see shape the way we understand ourselves and one another? In this episode of Makers & Mystics , Stephen Roach sits down with art historian and author Elissa Yukiko Weichbrodt to explore her new book, Look Like a Lady: Five Visual Tropes of Womanhood and How to See Ourselves Differently . Drawing from centuries of art history, Elissa identifies five recurring ways women have been depicted and understood: Venus, Vessel, Maiden, Mother, and Monster. These aren't simply artistic categories. They are stories that can quietly shape our expectations about beauty, femininity, motherhood, sexuality, agency, and even holiness. Together, Stephen and Elissa explore how these visual tropes have influenced both popular culture and Christian imagination and consider the alternative stories that can help us see women as whole, particular, embodied people rather than objects, symbols, or stereotypes. The conversation moves from ancient Greek sculpture and Renaissance paintings to Victorian photography, contemporary beauty culture, purity culture, and the ways women are represented within the church. Along the way, Elissa introduces five counter-stories: Witnessing instead of objectifying Being instead of becoming an empty vessel for someone else's meaning Moving instead of remaining passive or contained Cultivating instead of being reduced to motherhood Partnering instead of viewing men and women as threats or opposites At the heart of the conversation is a deeper question: What might it look like to recover a vision of womanhood rooted not in cultural expectations, but in the particularity, dignity, agency, and belovedness of each person created in the image of God? For artists, this conversation offers an invitation to consider how the images we create participate in forming the imagination of the people who encounter them. And for all of us, it raises an important possibility: perhaps freedom doesn't come from simply rejecting old stories, but from learning to recognize them—and telling truer ones. Elissa Weichbrodt is an art historian, educator, and author. Her new book, Look Like a Lady: Five Visual Tropes of Womanhood and How to See Ourselves Differently , examines the ways visual culture has shaped our understanding of womanhood and offers a more expansive, hopeful vision. Connect with Elissa on Instagram: http://instagram.com/elissabrodt Get the book: https://bakerbookhouse.com/products/9781587436925_look-like-a-lady Listen to our previous conversation with Elissa: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/s11-e07-redeeming-vision-with-dr-elissa-yukiko-weichbrodt/id1090123738?i=1000605110237 Send us Fan Mail Support the show CONNECT WITH US Website: http://www.makersandmystics.com Instagram: http://www.instagram.com/makersandmystics Support the show: patreon.com/makersandmystics Sign Up for Our Newsletter! http://eepurl.com/g49Ks1 GET A MAKERS X MYSTICS COFFEE MUG

What does it mean to glorify God through art? For many artists, the desire to glorify God can become an expectation that their work should communicate an explicitly religious message. But what happens when that expectation begins to constrict the artist? What if our attempts to make art that clearly communicates faith actually prevent the art from becoming genuinely transformative? In this solo meditation, Stephen Roach explores the relationship between Christian faith, artistic freedom, and the glory of God. Drawing on the work of Hans Rookmaaker and Flannery O'Connor , as well as the strange prophetic performances of Ezekiel, Isaiah, and Jeremiah, Stephen asks whether art needs to be explicitly religious in order to be spiritually meaningful. Stephen revisits the story of Paolo Veronese and his controversial painting of The Last Supper , which brought him before the Catholic Inquisition in 1573. The story raises an important question for artists and faith communities alike: what happens when our desire to protect familiar expressions of faith leaves no room for artistic imagination? Perhaps glorifying God through art doesn't always mean making art that is easily recognizable as Christian. Perhaps sometimes it means following our creative curiosity into places that are unfamiliar, challenging, ambiguous, or even strange. In a world where familiar religious imagery can become wallpaper, what might happen if we made room for art that surprises us again? In this episode: Rethinking what it means to "glorify God" through art Why treating art as a "tool" for evangelism can strip it of its power The shocking performance art of Ezekiel, Isaiah, and Jeremiah Paolo Veronese's controversial Last Supper How religious conformity can restrict artistic creativity Why faith communities need to cultivate curiosity rather than judgment The danger of familiar truths becoming spiritually dull ABOUT THE HOST Stephen Roach is the host of Makers and Mystics, a podcast exploring the intersection of creativity, faith, and the human experience. He is an artist, curator, poet, and musician. He is currently writing How to See Invisible Things , a book exploring the future of art and faith. Stephen has spent over a decade advocating for creativity as a spiritual discipline and calling. RESOURCES AND LINKS Art Needs No Justification by Hans Rookmaaker — the book referenced for its argument that art has intrinsic value apart from evangelistic use Five Creativity Killers and How to Avoid Them by Stephen Roach — Stephen's booklet where he first wrote about Paolo Veronese's trial Disclaimer: This episode is a case for unconventional art, but I want to be clear that it is not a disparagement of sacred art: work created specifically for devotional or liturgical environments and practices. My critique of “easy art” is not meant to diminish the beauty or value of sacred art. —Stephen Roach Send us Fan Mail Support the show CONNECT WITH US Website: http://www.makersandmystics.com Instagram: http://www.instagram.com/makersandmystics Support the show: patreon.com/makersandmystics Sign Up for Our Newsletter! http://eepurl.com/g49Ks1 GET A MAKERS X MYSTICS COFFEE MUG

Every great artist from Caravaggio to Frida Kahlo has fought the same invisible war, and Stephen Roach makes the case that it is not a coincidence. In this solo reflection, Stephen traces a decade-long question that has haunted him: why does creative expression seem to attract so much internal and external opposition? Drawing on scripture, church history, and the lives of artists who battled addiction, trauma, and mental illness, he builds a case for why creativity and faith are so deeply intertwined, and why that connection makes artists a centerpiece in a spiritual battle. He highlights an uncanny parallel between the King of Tyre in Ezekiel 28 and the artisans in Exodus, then lands in the present moment, asking what it means to keep making human art in an age of artificial intelligence. Listeners will walk away with a framework for understanding creative resistance and a renewed sense of why their work matters. KEY TOPICS COVERED • Why creativity is rooted in the image of God • The historical pattern of struggle among great artists, from addiction to mental illness • The church's complicated relationship with the arts • What the rise of AI means for the future of human creativity • Why art may be the last human frontier in an automated world ABOUT THE HOST Stephen Roach is the host of Makers and Mystics, a podcast exploring the intersection of creativity, faith, and the human experience. He is an artist, curator, poet, and musician. He is currently writing How to See Invisible Things , a book exploring the inner life of art and faith. Stephen has spent over a decade advocating for creativity as a spiritual discipline. RESOURCES AND LINKS The War of Art by Steven Pressfield - referenced for its concept of Resistance and creative struggle Send us Fan Mail Support the show CONNECT WITH US Website: http://www.makersandmystics.com Instagram: http://www.instagram.com/makersandmystics Support the show: patreon.com/makersandmystics Sign Up for Our Newsletter! http://eepurl.com/g49Ks1 GET A MAKERS X MYSTICS COFFEE MUG

Evelyn Underhill: The Mother of Modern Mystics Artist Profile Series 40 Who was Evelyn Underhill, and why does her work continue to shape the modern contemplative movement more than a century later? In this Artist Profile episode of Makers & Mystics , Stephen Roach explores the life of Evelyn Underhill, writer, spiritual director, retreat leader, and one of the most influential voices on Christian mysticism in the twentieth century. Although she is often remembered for her landmark book Mysticism , Underhill's own spiritual journey was anything but straightforward. From youthful encounters with transcendent beauty to explorations of the occult, philosophy, and Roman Catholicism, her search eventually led her into the Anglican tradition, where she discovered that mystical experience finds its deepest fulfillment not in extraordinary visions but in the ordinary rhythms of worship, sacrament, and life with Christ. In an age captivated by spirituality yet often disconnected from historic faith, Evelyn Underhill's life reminds us that the deepest longing of the human heart is not simply for transcendent experiences, but for communion with the living God. In This Episode The surprising spiritual journey that shaped Evelyn Underhill's life How Mysticism became one of the defining books on Christian contemplation Why Underhill believed mystical experience should be part of ordinary Christian life Her friendship with Baron Friedrich von Hügel and its profound influence The relationship between artists, beauty, and the contemplative life Why her final book, Worship , marked the culmination of her life's work What her story offers Christians, artists, and seekers today Notable Quotes "The mystic is called to be a creative artist of the highest kind." "Beauty is simply Reality seen with the eyes of love." "Long before we begin searching for God, God has already begun searching for us." Books Mentioned Mysticism: A Study in the Nature and Development of Man's Spiritual Consciousness — Evelyn Underhill Practical Mysticism — Evelyn Underhill Worship — Evelyn Underhill Confessions — Augustine of Hippo Dark Night of the Soul — St. John of the Cross People Mentioned Baron Friedrich von Hügel T. S. Eliot Julian of Norwich St. John of the Cross William Blake Augustine of Hippo Connect with Makers & Mystics If this episode encouraged you, please subscribe, leave a review, and share it with someone who longs to recover beauty, wonder, and the contemplative life. To support the ongoing work of Makers & Mystics and gain access to bonus content, join our Patreon community. Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/makersandmystics Website: https://www.makersandmystics.com Send us Fan Mail Support the show CONNECT WITH US Website: http://www.makersandmystics.com Instagram: http://www.instagram.com/makersandmystics Support the show: patreon.com/makersandmystics Sign Up for Our Newsletter! http://eepurl.com/g49Ks1 GET A MAKERS X MYSTICS COFFEE MUG

What if art isn't simply something we admire, but something that asks something of us? In this episode, Stephen Roach sits down with acclaimed printmaker, educator, and storyteller Steve Prince for a conversation about the vocation of the artist. Drawing from history, faith, family, and lived experience, Steve shares how his work seeks to preserve memory, confront injustice, and create spaces where genuine transformation can begin. From the legacy of the Civil Rights Movement to the power of oral storytelling, from New Orleans kitchen tables to ambitious community art projects, Steve reveals why he believes artists are called to help us "remember to remember" and to imagine a more hopeful future together. Together they explore: Why artists are called to be truth-tellers How history shapes both our imagination and our responsibility The role of beauty in confronting difficult realities Why storytelling is essential to healing divided communities Steve's Kitchen Table project and its vision for reconciliation Creating art that challenges, invites, and transforms Faith, social justice, and the spiritual calling of creative work Helping the next generation of artists embrace both courage and adaptability Whether you're an artist, educator, historian, or simply someone longing for deeper conversations in a fractured world, this episode offers a vision of art as an act of hospitality, remembrance, and hope. Quote from the Episode "The artist helps us remember to remember.""Art isn't made to divide us, it creates a pathway toward who we could become.""Every table has something to teach us." - Steve Prince Resources Mentioned Steve Prince's Kitchen Table community art project Trinity City graphic novel initiative Howard Thurman Martin Luther Medgar Evers Emmett Till Rosa Parks Martin Luther King Jr. If this episode encouraged you, please consider sharing it with a friend, leaving a review, or supporting the work of Makers & Mystics through Patreon . Produced by Stephen Roach. Music by Some Were at Sea. Keep Creating. The World Needs Your Art. Send us Fan Mail Support the show CONNECT WITH US Website: http://www.makersandmystics.com Instagram: http://www.instagram.com/makersandmystics Support the show: patreon.com/makersandmystics Sign Up for Our Newsletter! http://eepurl.com/g49Ks1 GET A MAKERS X MYSTICS COFFEE MUG

Can beauty change a person? A community? A culture? Sacred artist Kate Capato believes it can. In this bonus episode of Makers & Mystics, Stephen Roach sits down with Kate to explore why authentic beauty has the power to heal, awaken wonder, and draw people into the presence of God. Together they discuss the modern crisis of beauty, the vocation of the artist, and how sacred art becomes an invitation into deeper communion with Christ. Kate shares why she and her family travel the country as "missionaries of beauty," bringing paintings and music into communities where beauty becomes a catalyst for transformation. In this episode, you'll discover: • Why beauty is essential • The difference between beauty and prettiness • Why modern culture is experiencing a crisis of beauty • The spiritual practice of creating sacred art • Practical ways anyone can cultivate beauty in everyday life About Kate Capato Kate Capato is a sacred artist and founder of Visual Grace. Through commissioned paintings, exhibitions, and speaking events, she helps people encounter the beauty of God through visual art. Together with her husband, she travels throughout the United States sharing sacred art and music as "missionaries of beauty." Learn more: https://visualgrace.org Send us Fan Mail Support the show CONNECT WITH US Website: http://www.makersandmystics.com Instagram: http://www.instagram.com/makersandmystics Support the show: patreon.com/makersandmystics Sign Up for Our Newsletter! http://eepurl.com/g49Ks1 GET A MAKERS X MYSTICS COFFEE MUG

Animation has a unique ability to carry profound truths beneath colorful worlds, unforgettable characters, and compelling adventure. Beneath the spectacle, the best stories invite us into questions of identity, grief, hope, and transformation. In this episode, Stephen Roach sits down with animator and storyboard artist Gene Kim, whose career has included work with Pixar, Blue Sky Studios, and major film and television productions. Together they explore why stories matter, how animation can communicate deep spiritual realities, and why genuine character transformation lies at the heart of every meaningful narrative. Gene also shares the deeply personal story behind his animated short film One Last Monster , revealing how the loss of his mother shaped its themes of trust, suffering, and hope. Drawing from Korean history, classic anime, The Lord of the Rings , and his own Christian faith, Gene reflects on the surprising ways fantasy can help us tell the truth about the human experience. In this conversation, you'll discover: Why animation is uniquely suited for exploring profound spiritual themes The relationship between storytelling and personal transformation How compelling characters become vehicles for hope and redemption How Gene processed grief through the creative act of filmmaking Why the best stories remind us that we are never alone in our suffering Whether you're an artist, filmmaker, writer, or simply someone who loves a great story, this conversation offers a thoughtful look at the power of imagination to help us make sense of ourselves and the world we inhabit. Watch Gene's animated short One Last Monster and follow his ongoing work: YouTube: https://youtube.com/@onelastmonster Instagram: https://instagram.com/onelastmonster Send us Fan Mail Support the show CONNECT WITH US Website: http://www.makersandmystics.com Instagram: http://www.instagram.com/makersandmystics Support the show: patreon.com/makersandmystics Sign Up for Our Newsletter! http://eepurl.com/g49Ks1 GET A MAKERS X MYSTICS COFFEE MUG

In this bonus episode of Makers & Mystics, Stephen Roach revisits The Pace of Beauty series with artist and designer Jennifer Sturrock. Drawing from her background in couture, contemporary art, and theological study, Jennifer shares how fabric and materiality have become a framework for exploring deeper questions of identity, mystery, and communion with God. What begins as a conversation about textiles and clothing unfolds into a rich exploration of the Transfiguration, the symbolism of garments throughout Scripture, and the ways beauty reveals truths that often remain hidden beneath the surface. Stephen and Jen discuss the theological significance of clothing and how fashion can function as both concealment and revelation. Jennifer reflects on her own artistic practice, including large-scale textile installations that invite viewers into contemplation, mystery, and embodied ways of knowing. The conversation also explores Jennifer's idea of "rewilding the creative soul,” embracing vulnerability, and discovering the beauty that emerges when people become more fully themselves. Highlights: • Jennifer's journey from fashion and textile design into theology and contemporary art • How the Transfiguration shaped her artistic and theological imagination • Fashion as language • Art as a practice of mystery, contemplation, and unknowing About Jennifer Sturrock Jennifer Sturrock is a Scottish multidisciplinary artist, designer, curator, and researcher whose work integrates couture, installation art, and poetry. Drawing on studies at Chelsea College of Arts and London College of Fashion, she later earned a Master's degree in Theology & the Arts from King's College London, where she specialized in the idea of beauty in theology. Connect with Jen Website: https://www.jennifersturrock.com Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/jensturrock Send us Fan Mail Support the show CONNECT WITH US Website: http://www.makersandmystics.com Instagram: http://www.instagram.com/makersandmystics Support the show: patreon.com/makersandmystics Sign Up for Our Newsletter! http://eepurl.com/g49Ks1 GET A MAKERS X MYSTICS COFFEE MUG

Beauty is one of the most celebrated words in art and faith conversations, but it may also be one of the most misunderstood. Is beauty simply what pleases the eye, or is it something deeper? Can beauty exist alongside suffering, loss, and the grotesque? And what happens when we settle for beauty that comforts us while avoiding the realities that transform us? What if beauty requires darkness, mystery, and even lament in order to reveal its deepest meaning? In this roundtable discussion, Stephen Roach and guests Corey Frey, Liv Ross, and Scott Aasman wrestle with beauty not as sentimentality or surface appeal, but as a force capable of holding together truth, goodness, suffering, and hope. KEY TOPICS Why beauty can feel inauthentic when it is removed from struggle The original meaning of "glamour" as a veil designed to trap and deceive, and why that etymology still matters for artists today How the three transcendentals — goodness, truth, and beauty — function like a trinity: remove one and the others collapse into vanity, brutality, or cover-up What Edmund Burke and Kant meant by the sublime, and why terror and beauty belong together rather than apart The real context behind Dostoevsky's phrase "beauty will save the world," drawn from The Idiot, and why stripping it from that argument changes everything Thomas Kinkade's stated goal of painting a world where the Fall never happened, and what his private life and Andy Warhol quote reveal about the cost of bypassing Holy Saturday Why form without substance is essentially pornographic, and how true beauty requires the material and the spiritual coming together How artistic isolation stunts creative roots the way a tree grown in perfect conditions falls in the first storm and why community, friction, and disagreement strengthen both the artist and the work About the Guests: Corey Frey is a multidisciplinary artist, writer, and co-founder of The Well Collaborative, a community dedicated to creativity, curiosity, and culture. He lives in Maryland with his wife and continues to explore the intersections of art, faith, and imagination. Liv Ross is an urban monk, poet, essayist, and Managing Editor of Traces Journal. Writing from the Ozarks, her work explores place, wonder, memory, and spiritual formation. Her first book, The Blackbird Ballad , was published by Solum Literary Press in 2026. Scott Aasman is an award-winning illustrator, educator, and co-founder of Salt Cellar Arts, an arts-focused community for the spiritually attentive and creatively engaged. He lives in Hamilton, Ontario, with his wife and two children. Resources Mentioned Beauty Will Save the World by Brian Zahnd The Idiot by Fyodor Dostoevsky The Thought of the Heart and the Soul of the World by James Hillman Works by Flannery O'Connor Works by Cormac McCarthy Paintings of Thomas Kinkade Landscapes of J. M. W. Turner Connect with Our Guests Corey Frey coreysfrey.com Liv Ross The Abbey of Curiosity Substack The Blackbird Ballad Scott Aasman Instagram – San Illustration Send us Fan Mail Support the show CONNECT WITH US Website: http://www.makersandmystics.com Instagram: http://www.instagram.com/makersandmystics Support the show: patreon.com/makersandmystics Sign Up for Our Newsletter! http://eepurl.com/g49Ks1 GET A MAKERS X MYSTICS COFFEE MUG

What does it cost an artist to tell the truth? Singer-songwriter Zan Fiskum has built her entire creative life around finding out. In this episode, host Stephen Roach sits down with Zan to explore how her most personal songs, about a toxic creative relationship, a fractured friendship, and a complicated bond with her mother, became anthems for strangers carrying the same quiet weight. This is a conversation about the craft behind vulnerability: how to write specifically enough to be honest, and broadly enough to let the listener find themselves inside your story. If you've ever wondered whether your most painful experiences are worth putting into a song, this episode answers that question with a resounding yes. Key Takeaways The particular is the universal. Writing from your most specific, personal experience doesn't isolate your audience; it invites them in. The goal is to leave enough space in the lyric for listeners to find their own story. Vulnerability on stage is a form of service. Sharing something raw and real can give your audience permission to feel things they didn't think they were allowed to feel, and sometimes, to take action they've been avoiding for years. Faith doesn't require religious language. Drawing on C.S. Lewis, Zan articulates a conviction shared by many artists of faith: we don't need more Christian people making Christian art. We need Christians making art, beautiful, honest, human art. Your constraints can become your creative fuel. Whether it's a commission, a theme, or a question crowdsourced from strangers on the internet, working within limits can push you toward material you'd never find on your own. Resources Mentioned Zan Fiskum's album — Forbidden Art (available on all major streaming platforms) Makers and Mystics — "The Gift of the Elders" episode — A previous episode featuring Petrobas from New Zealand on how indigenous cultures honor their elders Zan's social media: Instagram: @zanfiskum Send us Fan Mail Support the show CONNECT WITH US Website: http://www.makersandmystics.com Instagram: http://www.instagram.com/makersandmystics Support the show: patreon.com/makersandmystics Sign Up for Our Newsletter! http://eepurl.com/g49Ks1 GET A MAKERS X MYSTICS COFFEE MUG

Beauty As Survival: Breath, Embodiment, and The First Instrument A conversation with Whitney Lynn In this episode, I sit down with embodiment coach, creative director, and longtime Breath and The Clay collaborator Whitney Lynn to explore the intersections of breath, beauty, embodiment, and the creative life. Whitney’s work centers on “returning the body to the body,” helping people come home to themselves in a culture that so often pulls us toward dissociation. Together, we explore how breath is far more than a biological necessity; it is a sacred creative force, a pathway into nervous system regulation, healing, and flow. Through breathwork, we discuss how the body becomes not an obstacle to spiritual life, but our first instrument of artistry, intuition, and connection. This conversation continues on themes from our series on The Pace of Beauty, expanding the idea that beauty is not a luxury or superficial pursuit, but a necessary force for survival. Whitney offers insight into how beauty regulates us, heals trauma, and awakens us to deeper intimacy with ourselves, others, and God. Together, we also confront the inherited fear of the body present in many faith spaces, tracing how distorted ideas around embodiment have often disconnected spirituality from physical presence. Whitney invites us into a richer vision—one where the body is not something to escape, but a sacred vessel through which creativity, healing, and divine encounter unfold. Send us Fan Mail Support the show CONNECT WITH US Website: http://www.makersandmystics.com Instagram: http://www.instagram.com/makersandmystics Support the show: patreon.com/makersandmystics Sign Up for Our Newsletter! http://eepurl.com/g49Ks1 GET A MAKERS X MYSTICS COFFEE MUG

Make Your Home In This Luminous Dark A conversation with James K. A. Smith In this episode, I sit down with philosopher and author James K. A. Smith (Jamie) to explore the mystical tradition as a living pathway into deeper faith, creativity, and presence. Jamie shares how his journey into mysticism began not through abstract theology, but through personal crisis, an experience of depression that exposed the limits of intellect and certainty. From there, voices like St. John of the Cross and Thomas Merton opened up a new way of understanding faith, not as mastery, but as surrender; not as knowing, but as unknowing . Together, we explore what it means to “make your home in the luminous dark,” to embrace mystery as a space of transformation rather than failure. We also dive deeply into the surprising role of art, especially contemporary and “difficult” art, as a powerful and often overlooked gateway into contemplation. Rather than delivering clear messages, great art invites us into encounter, disorientation, and wonder, forming in us the very capacities needed for a mystical life. This conversation is an invitation to let go of control, to trust the deeper currents of love beneath reality, and to discover how both mysticism and art can open us to the presence of God in ways that certainty never could. JOIN US FOR BOOK CLUB! Every Tuesday at 8 pm EST in June 2026, we will be reading James's book online in our Patreon community! We'd love to have you with us. Visit patreon.com/makersandmystics to RSVP. Send us Fan Mail Support the show CONNECT WITH US Website: http://www.makersandmystics.com Instagram: http://www.instagram.com/makersandmystics Support the show: patreon.com/makersandmystics Sign Up for Our Newsletter! http://eepurl.com/g49Ks1 GET A MAKERS X MYSTICS COFFEE MUG

What can ancient stories teach us about creativity, courage, and our own place in the modern world? In this episode, Stephen Roach welcomes poet and priest Malcolm Guite back to Makers & Mystics to explore his poetic retelling of King Arthur and the Holy Grail. Malcolm reflects on how these stories shaped him from childhood and why myth still carries moral and spiritual weight in a disenchanted age. Together, they discuss the role of storytelling in recovering a sacramental vision of the world. This conversation is an invitation to re-enchantment—to slow down, commit to your craft, and take your place in the great unfolding story. IN THIS EPISODE YOU’LL HEAR ABOUT Why Arthurian legend endures : its moral and spiritual resonance Taking up the tale : how myth becomes personal meaning Re-enchantment : seeing the world with wonder in an age of distraction The value of slow, faithful creative practice Send us Fan Mail Support the show CONNECT WITH US Website: http://www.makersandmystics.com Instagram: http://www.instagram.com/makersandmystics Support the show: patreon.com/makersandmystics Sign Up for Our Newsletter! http://eepurl.com/g49Ks1 GET A MAKERS X MYSTICS COFFEE MUG

In this episode of Makers & Mystics , Stephen Roach sits down with cultural critic, writer, and iconographer Jonathan Pageau to explore the state of contemporary storytelling and the enduring power of myth. Pageau, creator of The Symbolic World, explains how symbols operate beneath conscious awareness to shape imagination and culture. Together, they discuss why traditional narratives appear depleted, how propaganda differs from true myth, and why fairy tales continue to communicate truths modern culture struggles to articulate. The conversation turns toward artists and storytellers, what it means to create work rooted in beauty, transcendence, and enduring symbolic patterns rather than novelty or cynicism. The conversation also connects with the theme of The Breath and the Clay 2026 —what it means to make space: space in our art, in our imagination, and in our lives for transcendent meaning to take root. Jonathan Pageau will be our keynote presenter for this year's event in Winston-Salem, NC, March 20-22. http://www.thebreathandtheclay.com Send us Fan Mail Support the show CONNECT WITH US Website: http://www.makersandmystics.com Instagram: http://www.instagram.com/makersandmystics Support the show: patreon.com/makersandmystics Sign Up for Our Newsletter! http://eepurl.com/g49Ks1 GET A MAKERS X MYSTICS COFFEE MUG

In this episode of Makers & Mystics , Stephen Roach continues the series The Pace of Beauty with Dr. Timothy Patitsas, author of The Ethics of Beauty . Focusing on Chapter Six, The Mystical Architect , they explore the inseparability of beauty and goodness, the cruciform nature of the artist’s journey, and how trauma has shaped modern art’s uneasy relationship with beauty. Together, they consider architecture as a foundational pattern of experience and the slow work of cultural renewal through restored patterns of beauty. Learn more about Dr. Patitsas and his work: https://www.stnicholaspress.net/store/the-ethics-of-beauty Send us Fan Mail Support the show CONNECT WITH US Website: http://www.makersandmystics.com Instagram: http://www.instagram.com/makersandmystics Support the show: patreon.com/makersandmystics Sign Up for Our Newsletter! http://eepurl.com/g49Ks1 GET A MAKERS X MYSTICS COFFEE MUG

This replay episode features excerpts from a 2017 conversation with author Brian Zahnd, exploring his insights on Christian aesthetics and the role of beauty in faith. The discussion centers on Zahnd's book, "Beauty Will Save the World," and his argument for understanding Christianity through the lens of beauty rather than relying solely on truth claims and moral arguments. Send us Fan Mail Support the show CONNECT WITH US Website: http://www.makersandmystics.com Instagram: http://www.instagram.com/makersandmystics Support the show: patreon.com/makersandmystics Sign Up for Our Newsletter! http://eepurl.com/g49Ks1 GET A MAKERS X MYSTICS COFFEE MUG

What does it mean to repair what has been broken, and can there be beauty in that work? In this episode of Makers & Mystics , Stephen Roach is joined by Rabbi Danya Ruttenberg for a thoughtful conversation on repentance, accountability, and the demanding work of repair. As part of our ongoing series on beauty, this episode explores repentance not as performance or apology, but as a process of truth-telling, learning, and transformation. Drawing from ancient Jewish wisdom and contemporary justice work, Rabbi Danya reflects on how individuals, communities, and institutions can move toward healing after harm—and why art, imagination, and beauty are essential for sustaining the work of justice and hope. Send us Fan Mail Support the show CONNECT WITH US Website: http://www.makersandmystics.com Instagram: http://www.instagram.com/makersandmystics Support the show: patreon.com/makersandmystics Sign Up for Our Newsletter! http://eepurl.com/g49Ks1 GET A MAKERS X MYSTICS COFFEE MUG

The Beauty of Authenticity — John Van Deusen Songwriter John Van Deusen joins Makers & Mystics to explore the beauty of authenticity in art, faith, and vocation. In a creative landscape that often rewards certainty and success, John reflects on the cost—and freedom—of making honesty the point. At the center of the conversation is his latest album, As Long As I Am In The Tent of This Body I Will Make A Joyful Noise , a shape-shifting, faith-inflected collection that resists tidy resolutions and embraces vulnerability, doubt, joy, and embodied life. Together, host Stephen Roach and John Van Deusen talk about creative calling, audience expectation, near-successes, family life, and why authenticity remains a risky—but faithful—posture for artists. Send us Fan Mail Support the show CONNECT WITH US Website: http://www.makersandmystics.com Instagram: http://www.instagram.com/makersandmystics Support the show: patreon.com/makersandmystics Sign Up for Our Newsletter! http://eepurl.com/g49Ks1 GET A MAKERS X MYSTICS COFFEE MUG

What if beauty isn’t an escape from the outrage and exhaustion of the world—but a form of resistance against it? In a culture overrun with anxiety and uncertainty, turning toward beauty can feel almost defiant. In this episode of Makers & Mystics , host Stephen Roach is joined by theologian, poet, and cultural critic Jonathan P. Walton to explore how beauty forms us for resilience, integrity, and repair—both personally and communally. Drawing from his book Beauty and Resistance: Spiritual Rhythms for Formation and Repair , Walton reflects on the spiritual and emotional work required to live truthfully in a hurried, narcissistic culture. Together, they discuss the tension between joy and guilt, the importance of celebration and lament, and the danger of the false self in spiritual formation. Jonathan introduces the Four Rs—Rest, Restore, Resist, Repeat —as a crafted rule of life that helps us resist what deforms us while cultivating beauty, depth, and intentional living. He also shares the backstory behind his poem “Change of Plans,” offering insight into how community, faith, and honesty shape the long journey toward wholeness. This conversation is an invitation to slow down, tend to what is wounded, and rediscover beauty not as escape—but as faithful resistance. Resources & Links Beauty and Resistance: Spiritual Rhythms for Formation and Repair — Jonathan P. Walton Support The Podcast — Join our Patreon growing community! http://www.patreon.com/makersandmystics Send us Fan Mail Support the show CONNECT WITH US Website: http://www.makersandmystics.com Instagram: http://www.instagram.com/makersandmystics Support the show: patreon.com/makersandmystics Sign Up for Our Newsletter! http://eepurl.com/g49Ks1 GET A MAKERS X MYSTICS COFFEE MUG

What role does beauty play in a fractured and hurried world—and what might happen if we allowed it to slow us down? This episode marks the beginning of a new Makers and Mystics series, The Pace of Beauty , exploring how beauty invites us into a more attentive and spiritually grounded way of living. In this opening conversation, Stephen Roach is joined by Winfield Bevins , author, artist, and founder of Creo Arts, a missional arts community awakening the world to the beauty of the Christian story. Together, they explore the themes of Winfield's book How Beauty Will Save the World and reflect on the intersection of art, faith, and community. Winfield shares personal stories of how art became a lifeline during a formative season of his life, and how creative practices can function as spiritual disciplines. He emphasizes the transformative power of beauty and the arts in a broken world, advocating for a deeper integration of creativity within the church. Book Offer for Listeners Oaks Press is offering listeners of Makers and Mystics a free copy of Winfield Bevins’s book How Beauty Will Save the World . Simply cover the cost of shipping and use the code MAKERS at checkout. Get your copy here: How Beauty Will Save the World — Oaks Press Resources How Beauty Will Save the World by Winfield Bevins Creo Arts Makers and Mystics Podcast Send us Fan Mail Support the show CONNECT WITH US Website: http://www.makersandmystics.com Instagram: http://www.instagram.com/makersandmystics Support the show: patreon.com/makersandmystics Sign Up for Our Newsletter! http://eepurl.com/g49Ks1 GET A MAKERS X MYSTICS COFFEE MUG